Marcus Rashford (out)

It's not very clear at all though.

Rashford was dropped from the squad for the match vs City because Amorim wasn't happy with him. We don't know if it was a discipline issue for breaking certain rules or if he just didn't feel he was putting in enough effort in training. He wasn't put on the transfer list or banished from the squad, he was dropped for one match.

Garnacho was also dropped for that match and yet by all accounts he apologised and returned to training well and he was back in the squad for the next game and it's been fine ever since.

Rashford was dropped for one match and instead of fighting to win his place back like Garnacho 2 days later gives an interview saying he's done here and ready to leave. He is the one initiating the exit.

Yes, it's clear, because the club briefed the press about not only wanting him out, but that getting rid of him was seen as essential for a cultural reboot.

Not only is that clear proof that the club wants him out, doing so also clearly damaged his value in the eyes of other clubs. The only way it makes any rational sense to trash your own player publicly when you're trying to sell, is to apply pressure on the player to actually accept leaving. There is no need to pressure a player to leave if they already want out.

Rashford then responded to these things happening by accepting to leave, like the club wanted.
 
His skill set?

That video posted recently, of him jogging not much further than on the spot, while the opponent dribbles a ring round him, I could do that, and I'm about the same age as the goalkeeping coach
And you'll find clips of him running around pressing and doing all sorts. And clips of other players who are being played now doing similar. Saw it play out on social media today. We don't need to get into all that. Just unnecessary.
 
The training extremely hard part is obviously in dispute, but it's very clearly true that Rashford wasn't the one initiating the exit, and that he didn't initially want to leave.

Amorim's latest comments only make rational sense if he's joining the club in trying to push Rashford out, and that would only be necessary if he's still not very big on leaving, but considering Amorim just recently smashed the dressing room and had to walk back other comments, it's pretty clear he struggles with basic impulse control. So, it might just have been him being dumb again, rather than anything calculated.
Struggles with basic impulse control...This is not a corporate manager who will get into trouble with HR if he raises his voice at a meeting. Fergie also "struggled with basic impulse control" when he smashed Beckham's eyebrow. These things are common at the very highest levels of sport.
 
I'm actually a bit surprised that he has kept quiet. One out of three: 1. He is waiting for the right moment to come out with a bang. 2. He saw what happened to Sancho and doesn't want the same spectacle. 3. Amorin is right, and he knows it. At the moment, it's more fun spending money in fancy bars. I mean, you only live ones.
He said himself he wouldn't make any further comment in the interview he did.
 
Yes, it's clear, because the club briefed the press about not only wanting him out, but that getting rid of him was seen as essential for a cultural reboot.

Not only is that clear proof that the club wants him out, doing so also clearly damaged his value in the eyes of other clubs. The only way it makes any rational sense to trash your own player publicly when you're trying to sell, is to apply pressure on the player to actually accept leaving. There is no need to pressure a player to leave if they already want out.

Rashford then responded to these things happening by accepting to leave, like the club wanted.

I still disagree it's clear who initiated the exit, but ultimately it's Rashfords fault anyway, sounds like he's been lazy in training and anyone with eyes could see how half arsed he's been on the pitch the last 18 months.

He comes across as someone who's been completely checked out here for years, when it was contract renewal time he coincidentally hit a rich vein of form but other than that he's been very poor for a long time.
 
Struggles with basic impulse control...This is not a corporate manager who will get into trouble with HR if he raises his voice at a meeting. Fergie also "struggled with basic impulse control" when he smashed Beckham's eyebrow. These things are common at the very highest levels of sport.

There is a reason you have to use that single example from Ferguson from his 40 year long managerial career, because it was a very unusual thing and not something common at all.

He made comments to the press that he had to walk back, either because he wasn't capable of thinking obvious things through, or because he spoke to the press without thinking. He also destroyed several things in the dressing room, either because he very rationally figured that this was the best available action he could perform to help the team, or because he lost control.

Then, with the latest comments about Rashford, he either 1. again spoke to the press without thinking first, 2. is trying to push Rashford to leave, which is weird if Rashford wants to leave, or 3. is dumb.

This happening so recently after the first two things makes 1 a reasonable guess for me, but who knows.
 


This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.

But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?

Because it's clearly not just about his training. I believe that he does train up to standard. I do also believe his life off the pitch, outside of his charity work, needs to improve. Seen rumours about him and he can't be doing all sorts that he does without showing it on the pitch. Roy Keane, Ronaldinho and them got away with that because they performed consistently. He hasn't.
 
I agree with all of these responses to the ridiculous post about "babyish behaviour" from Amorim. As takes on the situation go, that's one of the worst I've heard. Rashford has been excluded because his effort in training, and all the behaviour associated with his approach to professionalism etc., is below the standard required for a Manchester United player. The ONLY ways through that are to either (a) leave, or (b) raise your standards to those required.

Rashford clearly doesn't want to do (b) or it would've happened already. It's not difficult to go into work every day, with a positive, professional attitude, and give 100%. Especially when your job is playing fecking football. If a player thinks they are too good for that, or can't find the motivation to do it, then they serve zero purpose for the club. By reintegrating them into the team, you undercut everything you are trying to achieve in raising standards. "Hey everyone, if you don't give 100% and carry yourselves with the upmost professionalism, you won't be part of the team. Except Marcus of course, he can't be arsed but I'm putting him in the team anyway." Doesn't really have a ring to it.

No player is bigger than the club, and especially not a player that hasn't delivered anything of note in the last 18 months. Rashford, unfortunately, is the product of his environment. Here was a player who rose to prominence under famed disciplinarian Louis Van Gaal. He came onto the scene as an all action, tireless, forward. A player who made endless runs into the channels, pressing, behind the lines. Was constantly moving, and buzzing around. He was a real force of nature. He gradually started developing his game, filled out tremendously, became a really exciting and explosive inside forward....but over the OGS era, we started to see more and more player power come to the fore. It has reared it's head during the Mourinho era. OGS famously was fairly lax when it came to discipline and training. Preferring a more laissez-faire approach to the game. A move to "bring the joy back". And in fairness to him, he did very well for two seasons. But as he hit a rocky patch, the squad didn't have the discipline, grit, or determination to pull themselves out of it. The ended up as a bunch of moody, man-boys, who didn't want to do the hardwork and wanted everything their own way. Ragnick saw this when he came in, and was palpably shocked by the lack of professionalism throughout the squad.

Rashford never recovered from this. His key formative years were at his boyhood club, getting paid 300k+ a week, in an environment dominated by player power, overseen by an indulgent, profligate board who indulged his ridiculous attitude because he was a "star". Now reality has bitten. There is a whole new structure, no more indulgence of prima-donna's, exacting standards, sensible recruitment, resetting of cultural and professional standards, and a lot of the players are apparently not keen to conform. Those players have to go. Sancho is gone, Rashford will be next. It is their loss, not ours. Absolute ruthlessness is required. There is nothing to prevent Marcus from coming into training tomorrow, to pull the manager aside and say "Boss, I was wrong, I can see that now. I want to give it all, I want to be at this club, I want to learn, I want to improve, and you can count on me to give 100% every time I step onto the training field", and then to go out there an actually do it. Absolutely nothing to stop him from doing that except (a) his pride, (b) his attitude, or (c) his (lack of) motivation or ambition.

There is virtually no player I would indulge outside of the standards, except for perhaps peak Messi, or an iconic leader like Cantona.....but the reason those players were so good in the first place, is because they worked so hard and led by example. So it's a moot point. What you don't do is indulge and make exceptions for a player without 9 goals in past 60 games, who spends 90% of the game walking or trotting about.

There was a point in time where with Garnacho, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial, I thought United had potentially one of the best strike forces in the world. 3 from the academy, and one signed as a teen. They were to come to represent everything that was good about Manchester United. 3/4 are now abject failures in terms of this club, and a fifth young talent and major signing, Jadon Sancho, has gone the same way. In nearly every case, the problem hasn't been talent, it has been attitude, discipline, character, and work ethic etc. That should tell you everything you need to know about the type of culture we have had at this club for the last decade. How does one club produce so many top young talents, and then have all of those talents fall off because of off the field, or lack of application reasons? Unless there is a serious cultural problem at the club.....

The work Ineos and Amorim are doing to change the culture, is the single most important work done since Fergie left. It's more important than results right now, and it's more important than trophies this season. Anything we achieve in the short term (cup wins under ETH for example) are just papering over the cracks of a broken, rotten institution. Ineos are now fixing the foundations, and things will get ugly as a result. Players, big players, will leave. Results will suffer. Sacrifices will have to be made. Dirty laundry will be aired. The list goes on. But it is VITAL that we stay the course. That we reset and rebuild this club with the cast iron discipline and high standards that drove it to success over the 30 years Fergie was here. To be the best, to compete with the best, you have to have an environment that demands excellence in everything. That exudes application, dedication and hard work. That makes intelligent, data driven decisions, and uses facts rather than emotion to drive decision making.

Zero exceptions, zero tolerance for application underperformers, and a close knit culture. A player can play badly, and still be a part of the squad, if that player is giving 100% to the cause, and doing everything they can to improve. A player can play well, but be sold or dropped, if they are only giving 50 or 75%, but the effects of indulging that player, spreads to everyone and everything.

TL;DR - Sell Rashford.

Well said Sir. Well Said indeed
 
The training extremely hard part is obviously in dispute, but it's very clearly true that Rashford wasn't the one initiating the exit, and that he didn't initially want to leave.

Amorim's latest comments only make rational sense if he's joining the club in trying to push Rashford out, and that would only be necessary if he's still not very big on leaving, but considering Amorim just recently smashed the dressing room and had to walk back other comments, it's pretty clear he struggles with basic impulse control. So, it might just have been him being dumb again, rather than anything calculated.

That is neither clear nor visibly true. All we publicly know is that Rashford and Garnacho were both dropped and asked to show more in training. One of them clearly complied and is starting games for us despite being up for sale. The other immediately did a private journalistic interview where he said he wanted a new challenge. What we see is that Rashford asked for the move. That was the action, not the reaction.

It may have been a reaction to the club silently but explicitly putting him up for sale and telling his camp that he was not in their plans *before* the Winter piece. We don't know, but if we had to guess that it's extremely unlikely because (a) Rashford's PR would have highlighted that immediately, (b) Amorim would not have said his being dropped is solely due to effort in training, and not talked about how we needed Rashford'd qualities instead, and (c) we see with Garnacho that being up for sale does not stop this manager from picking you.

So sure, we don't completely know, but all available info strongly seems to suggest that Rashford blindsided the club with exit talk in that Winter piece.
 
That is neither clear nor visibly true. All we publicly know is that Rashford and Garnacho were both dropped and asked to show more in training. One of them clearly complied and is starting games for us despite being up for sale. The other immediately did a private journalistic interview where he said he wanted a new challenge. What we see is that Rashford asked for the move. That was the action, not the reaction.

It may have been a reaction to the club silently but explicitly putting him up for sale and telling his camp that he was not in their plans *before* the Winter piece. We don't know, but if we had to guess that it's extremely unlikely because (a) Rashford's PR would have highlighted that immediately, (b) Amorim would not have said his being dropped is solely due to effort in training, and not talked about how we needed Rashford'd qualities instead, and (c) we see with Garnacho that being up for sale does not stop this manager from picking you.

So sure, we don't completely know, but all available info strongly seems to suggest that Rashford blindsided the club with exit talk in that Winter piece.

This is not true. The club briefed the press that getting rid of Rashford was an essential part of a cultural reboot.
 
When you see photos like that, Rashford swanning off to New York instead of being there on the new managers first day, the rumours in The Athletic that he went out on the piss before a PL game then lied to Amorim about it, the shocking lack of effort in games particularly the Viktoria Plzen game I don't know how anyone could possibly take Rashford's side in this.

He's been completely unprofessional, I bet Amorim was shocked at how blatantly Rashford doesn't give a shit.

Exactly what I said earlier.
 
Yes, it's clear, because the club briefed the press about not only wanting him out, but that getting rid of him was seen as essential for a cultural reboot.

Not only is that clear proof that the club wants him out, doing so also clearly damaged his value in the eyes of other clubs. The only way it makes any rational sense to trash your own player publicly when you're trying to sell, is to apply pressure on the player to actually accept leaving. There is no need to pressure a player to leave if they already want out.

Rashford then responded to these things happening by accepting to leave, like the club wanted.

When did this happen? There were some journalists who wrote pieces with this view, but they were speculative pieces doing deductive work. Not one of them had a 'anonymous source in management say' or 'club sources say'. Do you have articles that explicitly mention the club putting any message out?
 
When did this happen? There were some journalists who wrote pieces with this view, but they were speculative pieces doing deductive work. Not one of them had a 'anonymous source in management say' or 'club sources say'. Do you have articles that explicitly mention the club putting any message out?

I'm sorry, but you're either insulting me or yourself with this. The cultural reboot piece was as clear as a brief can be.
 
I'm sorry, but you're either insulting me or yourself with this. The cultural reboot piece was as clear as a brief can be.

:lol:

How is it insulting anyone? You're claiming that the club briefed the press about wanting to sell Rashford before he did the Winter piece. I'm asking for evidence, because I (and most of the others here) claim that it's wrong. It's true that 'journalists' say a hundred things, but very few have sources from relevant people.The decision to bin him was NOT (and could NOT have been) made without Amorim's consent - there was hardly any time between Amorim's arriving and Rashford's piece.

Are you insulted every time someone asks you to back up a claim, especially when you're contradicting them?
 
Regarding Marcus Rashford
Instead of replying to the numerous responses I have received I will make several comments.
1. I am not a particular fan of Rashford but I have seen him play some very good games including most recently the Everton game where he scored two good goals.
2. I don’t think it at all professional of Amorim to make remarks like he has made about Rashford publicly and he now appears to be back tracking on this comment. Too late I’m afraid and very immature, although he has apologised apparently.
3. There are problems with Rashford but I’m not sure what they are or what has caused them. I don’t think he is the smartest of guys but he must see the mess he is in regards clubs being a bit wary about his possible value and wages, even his state of mind.
4. I fully understand that people will tear into him because he is a real conundrum and I’m not sure he knows what he wants, let alone the manager or anyone else.
5. I fully accept the responses I have received and always try to respect other peoples views (or mostly). To everyone just keep on posting in any way you wish.

I think you're pushing it quite a lot there.
 
Rashford makes Teves look like a saint. Also shows how far the club has fallen to have supported such behaviour and mediocre performances for so long.
 
:lol:

How is it insulting anyone? You're claiming that the club briefed the press about wanting to sell Rashford before he did the Winter piece. I'm asking for evidence, because I (and most of the others here) claim that it's wrong. It's true that 'journalists' say a hundred things, but very few have sources from relevant people.The decision to bin him was NOT (and could NOT have been) made without Amorim's consent - there was hardly any time between Amorim's arriving and Rashford's piece.

Are you insulted every time someone asks you to back up a claim, especially when you're contradicting them?

The evidence is the cultural reboot piece, which was an obvious brief from the club.

I thought it was obvious, but I'm referring to the concept of insulting someone's intelligence. If I have to spell it out further it'll be ruder than I intended it to be, so I'd rather not.
 
Rashford makes Teves look like a saint. Also shows how far the club has fallen to have supported such behaviour and mediocre performances for so long.
Great point. And unlike Rashford, Tevez gave his all on the pitch when he was in a United shirt.
 
The evidence is the cultural reboot piece, which was an obvious brief from the club.

I thought it was obvious, but I'm referring to the concept of insulting someone's intelligence. If I have to spell it out further it'll be ruder than I intended it to be, so I'd rather not.

I have no idea why this point is equivalent to insulting someone's intelligence. What you strongly claim in contradiction to a post is NOT clear and obvious, I'm asking you to explain your view. I'm not, say, asking you to explain why 2+2=4 - that would insulting your intelligence (or mine). On the other hand, I do think it is strange when you make a throwaway comment contradicting them and refuse to elaborate.

Anyways, I am actually curious about the timeline, so I went looking for the 'cultural reboot' piece that I remember reading.


My version was this piece by Jamie Jackson in the Guardian, published on 16th December after him and Garnacho were dropped for the derby win. Rashford's Winter piece came out on the 18th, 2 days later.
There's some strong language in the article:
Marcus Rashford has been marginalised and put up for sale by Manchester United
Sir Jim Ratcliffe is intent there can be no passengers and is ready to cut his losses on Rashford if there are suitors in January.

Amorim has decided Rashford needs to leave in the push to engineer a shift in culture throughout the club, for football and non-football staff.
But there are no sources at all backing it up, and the reasoning is seemed to be based on a 'feeling' at the club.

and whereas a way back is regarded as possible for Garnacho, the feeling at the club is that Rashford’s time is up.

In the very article, Jackson backtracks with a contradiction.

The head coach also said the pair would be competing for a place in the squad for Thursday’s Carabao Cup tie at Tottenham and Sunday’s game at home to Bournemouth.

So either Amorim thought Rashford's time is up and he has no place, or he thought Rashford could make his way to the squad. Which was it? We never found out because Rashford did the Winter piece two days later. But my read (and what I think is a sensible read given the state of the British media and Jamie Jackson's reputation for sensationalism) is that Jamie Jackson doesn't know, because he's speculating and he has no sources. I'd rather believe the (excessively so) honest head coach.

More evidence? Jamie Jackson's own words in a later article on 26 Jan called 'Ruben Amorim’s struggle for goals not helped by Marcus Rashford’s exile'

Well, when seriously struggling, you do not need to send your best forward into exile, as Marcus Rashford has been for the past six weeks. This problem seems self-inflicted by Amorim. Because unless a Ratcliffe tap on the shoulder informed of the need to offload the forward’s £365k-a-week salary, how bad do the “training reasons” have to be (Amorim’s stated reason) to exclude the 27-year-old from United’s past 10 outings?

'Unless Ratcliffe informed'? So he doesn't know, which means the previous article was speculation, as well. It's just shitty 'jornalism' with no explicit boundaries between opinion and reporting. I wouldn't be surprised if Rashford himself read the same cultural reboot article and thought it was a club briefing, leading to him being disillusioned two days later.

The point is, the club did NOT have a briefing where they put up Rashford for sale, at least not before his Winter piece. You're being misled by poor journalism.
 
Rashford makes Teves look like a saint. Also shows how far the club has fallen to have supported such behaviour and mediocre performances for so long.
Holding up the “RIP Fergie“ sign and refusing to apologize for it was in very bad taste to say the least.
 
Regarding Marcus Rashford
Instead of replying to the numerous responses I have received I will make several comments.
1. I am not a particular fan of Rashford but I have seen him play some very good games including most recently the Everton game where he scored two good goals.
2. I don’t think it at all professional of Amorim to make remarks like he has made about Rashford publicly and he now appears to be back tracking on this comment. Too late I’m afraid and very immature, although he has apologised apparently.
3. There are problems with Rashford but I’m not sure what they are or what has caused them. I don’t think he is the smartest of guys but he must see the mess he is in regards clubs being a bit wary about his possible value and wages, even his state of mind.
4. I fully understand that people will tear into him because he is a real conundrum and I’m not sure he knows what he wants, let alone the manager or anyone else.
5. I fully accept the responses I have received and always try to respect other peoples views (or mostly). To everyone just keep on posting in any way you wish.
I seemed to have missed this, when did he back track on the Rashford comment?
 
I agree with all of these responses to the ridiculous post about "babyish behaviour" from Amorim. As takes on the situation go, that's one of the worst I've heard. Rashford has been excluded because his effort in training, and all the behaviour associated with his approach to professionalism etc., is below the standard required for a Manchester United player. The ONLY ways through that are to either (a) leave, or (b) raise your standards to those required.

Rashford clearly doesn't want to do (b) or it would've happened already. It's not difficult to go into work every day, with a positive, professional attitude, and give 100%. Especially when your job is playing fecking football. If a player thinks they are too good for that, or can't find the motivation to do it, then they serve zero purpose for the club. By reintegrating them into the team, you undercut everything you are trying to achieve in raising standards. "Hey everyone, if you don't give 100% and carry yourselves with the upmost professionalism, you won't be part of the team. Except Marcus of course, he can't be arsed but I'm putting him in the team anyway." Doesn't really have a ring to it.

No player is bigger than the club, and especially not a player that hasn't delivered anything of note in the last 18 months. Rashford, unfortunately, is the product of his environment. Here was a player who rose to prominence under famed disciplinarian Louis Van Gaal. He came onto the scene as an all action, tireless, forward. A player who made endless runs into the channels, pressing, behind the lines. Was constantly moving, and buzzing around. He was a real force of nature. He gradually started developing his game, filled out tremendously, became a really exciting and explosive inside forward....but over the OGS era, we started to see more and more player power come to the fore. It has reared it's head during the Mourinho era. OGS famously was fairly lax when it came to discipline and training. Preferring a more laissez-faire approach to the game. A move to "bring the joy back". And in fairness to him, he did very well for two seasons. But as he hit a rocky patch, the squad didn't have the discipline, grit, or determination to pull themselves out of it. The ended up as a bunch of moody, man-boys, who didn't want to do the hardwork and wanted everything their own way. Ragnick saw this when he came in, and was palpably shocked by the lack of professionalism throughout the squad.

Rashford never recovered from this. His key formative years were at his boyhood club, getting paid 300k+ a week, in an environment dominated by player power, overseen by an indulgent, profligate board who indulged his ridiculous attitude because he was a "star". Now reality has bitten. There is a whole new structure, no more indulgence of prima-donna's, exacting standards, sensible recruitment, resetting of cultural and professional standards, and a lot of the players are apparently not keen to conform. Those players have to go. Sancho is gone, Rashford will be next. It is their loss, not ours. Absolute ruthlessness is required. There is nothing to prevent Marcus from coming into training tomorrow, to pull the manager aside and say "Boss, I was wrong, I can see that now. I want to give it all, I want to be at this club, I want to learn, I want to improve, and you can count on me to give 100% every time I step onto the training field", and then to go out there an actually do it. Absolutely nothing to stop him from doing that except (a) his pride, (b) his attitude, or (c) his (lack of) motivation or ambition.

There is virtually no player I would indulge outside of the standards, except for perhaps peak Messi, or an iconic leader like Cantona.....but the reason those players were so good in the first place, is because they worked so hard and led by example. So it's a moot point. What you don't do is indulge and make exceptions for a player without 9 goals in past 60 games, who spends 90% of the game walking or trotting about.

There was a point in time where with Garnacho, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial, I thought United had potentially one of the best strike forces in the world. 3 from the academy, and one signed as a teen. They were to come to represent everything that was good about Manchester United. 3/4 are now abject failures in terms of this club, and a fifth young talent and major signing, Jadon Sancho, has gone the same way. In nearly every case, the problem hasn't been talent, it has been attitude, discipline, character, and work ethic etc. That should tell you everything you need to know about the type of culture we have had at this club for the last decade. How does one club produce so many top young talents, and then have all of those talents fall off because of off the field, or lack of application reasons? Unless there is a serious cultural problem at the club.....

The work Ineos and Amorim are doing to change the culture, is the single most important work done since Fergie left. It's more important than results right now, and it's more important than trophies this season. Anything we achieve in the short term (cup wins under ETH for example) are just papering over the cracks of a broken, rotten institution. Ineos are now fixing the foundations, and things will get ugly as a result. Players, big players, will leave. Results will suffer. Sacrifices will have to be made. Dirty laundry will be aired. The list goes on. But it is VITAL that we stay the course. That we reset and rebuild this club with the cast iron discipline and high standards that drove it to success over the 30 years Fergie was here. To be the best, to compete with the best, you have to have an environment that demands excellence in everything. That exudes application, dedication and hard work. That makes intelligent, data driven decisions, and uses facts rather than emotion to drive decision making.

Zero exceptions, zero tolerance for application underperformers, and a close knit culture. A player can play badly, and still be a part of the squad, if that player is giving 100% to the cause, and doing everything they can to improve. A player can play well, but be sold or dropped, if they are only giving 50 or 75%, but the effects of indulging that player, spreads to everyone and everything.

TL;DR - Sell Rashford.
Brilliant Post.
 
I agree with all of these responses to the ridiculous post about "babyish behaviour" from Amorim. As takes on the situation go, that's one of the worst I've heard. Rashford has been excluded because his effort in training, and all the behaviour associated with his approach to professionalism etc., is below the standard required for a Manchester United player. The ONLY ways through that are to either (a) leave, or (b) raise your standards to those required.

Rashford clearly doesn't want to do (b) or it would've happened already. It's not difficult to go into work every day, with a positive, professional attitude, and give 100%. Especially when your job is playing fecking football. If a player thinks they are too good for that, or can't find the motivation to do it, then they serve zero purpose for the club. By reintegrating them into the team, you undercut everything you are trying to achieve in raising standards. "Hey everyone, if you don't give 100% and carry yourselves with the upmost professionalism, you won't be part of the team. Except Marcus of course, he can't be arsed but I'm putting him in the team anyway." Doesn't really have a ring to it.

No player is bigger than the club, and especially not a player that hasn't delivered anything of note in the last 18 months. Rashford, unfortunately, is the product of his environment. Here was a player who rose to prominence under famed disciplinarian Louis Van Gaal. He came onto the scene as an all action, tireless, forward. A player who made endless runs into the channels, pressing, behind the lines. Was constantly moving, and buzzing around. He was a real force of nature. He gradually started developing his game, filled out tremendously, became a really exciting and explosive inside forward....but over the OGS era, we started to see more and more player power come to the fore. It has reared it's head during the Mourinho era. OGS famously was fairly lax when it came to discipline and training. Preferring a more laissez-faire approach to the game. A move to "bring the joy back". And in fairness to him, he did very well for two seasons. But as he hit a rocky patch, the squad didn't have the discipline, grit, or determination to pull themselves out of it. The ended up as a bunch of moody, man-boys, who didn't want to do the hardwork and wanted everything their own way. Ragnick saw this when he came in, and was palpably shocked by the lack of professionalism throughout the squad.

Rashford never recovered from this. His key formative years were at his boyhood club, getting paid 300k+ a week, in an environment dominated by player power, overseen by an indulgent, profligate board who indulged his ridiculous attitude because he was a "star". Now reality has bitten. There is a whole new structure, no more indulgence of prima-donna's, exacting standards, sensible recruitment, resetting of cultural and professional standards, and a lot of the players are apparently not keen to conform. Those players have to go. Sancho is gone, Rashford will be next. It is their loss, not ours. Absolute ruthlessness is required. There is nothing to prevent Marcus from coming into training tomorrow, to pull the manager aside and say "Boss, I was wrong, I can see that now. I want to give it all, I want to be at this club, I want to learn, I want to improve, and you can count on me to give 100% every time I step onto the training field", and then to go out there an actually do it. Absolutely nothing to stop him from doing that except (a) his pride, (b) his attitude, or (c) his (lack of) motivation or ambition.

There is virtually no player I would indulge outside of the standards, except for perhaps peak Messi, or an iconic leader like Cantona.....but the reason those players were so good in the first place, is because they worked so hard and led by example. So it's a moot point. What you don't do is indulge and make exceptions for a player without 9 goals in past 60 games, who spends 90% of the game walking or trotting about.

There was a point in time where with Garnacho, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial, I thought United had potentially one of the best strike forces in the world. 3 from the academy, and one signed as a teen. They were to come to represent everything that was good about Manchester United. 3/4 are now abject failures in terms of this club, and a fifth young talent and major signing, Jadon Sancho, has gone the same way. In nearly every case, the problem hasn't been talent, it has been attitude, discipline, character, and work ethic etc. That should tell you everything you need to know about the type of culture we have had at this club for the last decade. How does one club produce so many top young talents, and then have all of those talents fall off because of off the field, or lack of application reasons? Unless there is a serious cultural problem at the club.....

The work Ineos and Amorim are doing to change the culture, is the single most important work done since Fergie left. It's more important than results right now, and it's more important than trophies this season. Anything we achieve in the short term (cup wins under ETH for example) are just papering over the cracks of a broken, rotten institution. Ineos are now fixing the foundations, and things will get ugly as a result. Players, big players, will leave. Results will suffer. Sacrifices will have to be made. Dirty laundry will be aired. The list goes on. But it is VITAL that we stay the course. That we reset and rebuild this club with the cast iron discipline and high standards that drove it to success over the 30 years Fergie was here. To be the best, to compete with the best, you have to have an environment that demands excellence in everything. That exudes application, dedication and hard work. That makes intelligent, data driven decisions, and uses facts rather than emotion to drive decision making.

Zero exceptions, zero tolerance for application underperformers, and a close knit culture. A player can play badly, and still be a part of the squad, if that player is giving 100% to the cause, and doing everything they can to improve. A player can play well, but be sold or dropped, if they are only giving 50 or 75%, but the effects of indulging that player, spreads to everyone and everything.

TL;DR - Sell Rashford.

Fantastic post
 
A situation where any information that contradicts your accepted narrative is dismissed as (PR), indicates that you have a dislike for a player that extends beyond the actual events that happen on the pitch. As a journalist who is widely regarded as a reliable one, David Ornstein was invited on the show for a variety of reasons, yet suddenly that credibility of his has been questioned.
 
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Would Dan Ashworth's mediating presence have made a difference? Who knows? There was a respect and relationship there. Everyone knows the trick to getting the best out of Rashford on the field is making him feel involved and loved and getting him closer to goal; it's psychological and tactical. Anyway, Ashworth's gone. Amorim's in charge. Rashford was underperforming. The separation was in motion. So a move, initially on loan, next week makes sense. Staying on would continue the unwelcome sideshow/tension. Rashford has to go.
The above part may have something to do with Ashworth's exit. If Ashworth was at odds with the manager and rest of football hierarchy on such issues, its good that he left the club because otherwise it could give opportunity to players like Rashford play one boss against another.

On another note, this line "getting the best out of Rashford on the field is making him feel involved and loved and getting him closer to goal; it's psychological and tactical" is just another hint of how much Rashford has lost the plot. He has been the main man at United for years now and instead of introspecting why he hasn't performed, he thinks the problem is that he isn't loved enough??
 
I agree with all of these responses to the ridiculous post about "babyish behaviour" from Amorim. As takes on the situation go, that's one of the worst I've heard. Rashford has been excluded because his effort in training, and all the behaviour associated with his approach to professionalism etc., is below the standard required for a Manchester United player. The ONLY ways through that are to either (a) leave, or (b) raise your standards to those required.

Rashford clearly doesn't want to do (b) or it would've happened already. It's not difficult to go into work every day, with a positive, professional attitude, and give 100%. Especially when your job is playing fecking football. If a player thinks they are too good for that, or can't find the motivation to do it, then they serve zero purpose for the club. By reintegrating them into the team, you undercut everything you are trying to achieve in raising standards. "Hey everyone, if you don't give 100% and carry yourselves with the upmost professionalism, you won't be part of the team. Except Marcus of course, he can't be arsed but I'm putting him in the team anyway." Doesn't really have a ring to it.

No player is bigger than the club, and especially not a player that hasn't delivered anything of note in the last 18 months. Rashford, unfortunately, is the product of his environment. Here was a player who rose to prominence under famed disciplinarian Louis Van Gaal. He came onto the scene as an all action, tireless, forward. A player who made endless runs into the channels, pressing, behind the lines. Was constantly moving, and buzzing around. He was a real force of nature. He gradually started developing his game, filled out tremendously, became a really exciting and explosive inside forward....but over the OGS era, we started to see more and more player power come to the fore. It has reared it's head during the Mourinho era. OGS famously was fairly lax when it came to discipline and training. Preferring a more laissez-faire approach to the game. A move to "bring the joy back". And in fairness to him, he did very well for two seasons. But as he hit a rocky patch, the squad didn't have the discipline, grit, or determination to pull themselves out of it. The ended up as a bunch of moody, man-boys, who didn't want to do the hardwork and wanted everything their own way. Ragnick saw this when he came in, and was palpably shocked by the lack of professionalism throughout the squad.

Rashford never recovered from this. His key formative years were at his boyhood club, getting paid 300k+ a week, in an environment dominated by player power, overseen by an indulgent, profligate board who indulged his ridiculous attitude because he was a "star". Now reality has bitten. There is a whole new structure, no more indulgence of prima-donna's, exacting standards, sensible recruitment, resetting of cultural and professional standards, and a lot of the players are apparently not keen to conform. Those players have to go. Sancho is gone, Rashford will be next. It is their loss, not ours. Absolute ruthlessness is required. There is nothing to prevent Marcus from coming into training tomorrow, to pull the manager aside and say "Boss, I was wrong, I can see that now. I want to give it all, I want to be at this club, I want to learn, I want to improve, and you can count on me to give 100% every time I step onto the training field", and then to go out there an actually do it. Absolutely nothing to stop him from doing that except (a) his pride, (b) his attitude, or (c) his (lack of) motivation or ambition.

There is virtually no player I would indulge outside of the standards, except for perhaps peak Messi, or an iconic leader like Cantona.....but the reason those players were so good in the first place, is because they worked so hard and led by example. So it's a moot point. What you don't do is indulge and make exceptions for a player without 9 goals in past 60 games, who spends 90% of the game walking or trotting about.

There was a point in time where with Garnacho, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial, I thought United had potentially one of the best strike forces in the world. 3 from the academy, and one signed as a teen. They were to come to represent everything that was good about Manchester United. 3/4 are now abject failures in terms of this club, and a fifth young talent and major signing, Jadon Sancho, has gone the same way. In nearly every case, the problem hasn't been talent, it has been attitude, discipline, character, and work ethic etc. That should tell you everything you need to know about the type of culture we have had at this club for the last decade. How does one club produce so many top young talents, and then have all of those talents fall off because of off the field, or lack of application reasons? Unless there is a serious cultural problem at the club.....

The work Ineos and Amorim are doing to change the culture, is the single most important work done since Fergie left. It's more important than results right now, and it's more important than trophies this season. Anything we achieve in the short term (cup wins under ETH for example) are just papering over the cracks of a broken, rotten institution. Ineos are now fixing the foundations, and things will get ugly as a result. Players, big players, will leave. Results will suffer. Sacrifices will have to be made. Dirty laundry will be aired. The list goes on. But it is VITAL that we stay the course. That we reset and rebuild this club with the cast iron discipline and high standards that drove it to success over the 30 years Fergie was here. To be the best, to compete with the best, you have to have an environment that demands excellence in everything. That exudes application, dedication and hard work. That makes intelligent, data driven decisions, and uses facts rather than emotion to drive decision making.

Zero exceptions, zero tolerance for application underperformers, and a close knit culture. A player can play badly, and still be a part of the squad, if that player is giving 100% to the cause, and doing everything they can to improve. A player can play well, but be sold or dropped, if they are only giving 50 or 75%, but the effects of indulging that player, spreads to everyone and everything.

TL;DR - Sell Rashford.
Hell yeah brother. Couldn’t agree more.
 
I have no idea why this point is equivalent to insulting someone's intelligence. What you strongly claim in contradiction to a post is NOT clear and obvious, I'm asking you to explain your view. I'm not, say, asking you to explain why 2+2=4 - that would insulting your intelligence (or mine). On the other hand, I do think it is strange when you make a throwaway comment contradicting them and refuse to elaborate.

Anyways, I am actually curious about the timeline, so I went looking for the 'cultural reboot' piece that I remember reading.


My version was this piece by Jamie Jackson in the Guardian, published on 16th December after him and Garnacho were dropped for the derby win. Rashford's Winter piece came out on the 18th, 2 days later.
There's some strong language in the article:




But there are no sources at all backing it up, and the reasoning is seemed to be based on a 'feeling' at the club.



In the very article, Jackson backtracks with a contradiction.



So either Amorim thought Rashford's time is up and he has no place, or he thought Rashford could make his way to the squad. Which was it? We never found out because Rashford did the Winter piece two days later. But my read (and what I think is a sensible read given the state of the British media and Jamie Jackson's reputation for sensationalism) is that Jamie Jackson doesn't know, because he's speculating and he has no sources. I'd rather believe the (excessively so) honest head coach.

More evidence? Jamie Jackson's own words in a later article on 26 Jan called 'Ruben Amorim’s struggle for goals not helped by Marcus Rashford’s exile'



'Unless Ratcliffe informed'? So he doesn't know, which means the previous article was speculation, as well. It's just shitty 'jornalism' with no explicit boundaries between opinion and reporting. I wouldn't be surprised if Rashford himself read the same cultural reboot article and thought it was a club briefing, leading to him being disillusioned two days later.

The point is, the club did NOT have a briefing where they put up Rashford for sale, at least not before his Winter piece. You're being misled by poor journalism.

Fantastic post! The defending of Rashford has become too much on here. If he was trying to do his best on the pitch I could understand the sympathies. But we fans have spent several hours of our lives watching United games and seen this guy treat our time & money has a joke by casually jogging around. If he has no respect for the game or fans, why should we?
 
Would Dan Ashworth's mediating presence have made a difference? Who knows? There was a respect and relationship there. Everyone knows the trick to getting the best out of Rashford on the field is making him feel involved and loved and getting him closer to goal; it's psychological and tactical. Anyway, Ashworth's gone. Amorim's in charge. Rashford was underperforming. The separation was in motion. So a move, initially on loan, next week makes sense. Staying on would continue the unwelcome sideshow/tension. Rashford has to go.
The above part may have something to do with Ashworth's exit. If Ashworth was at odds with the manager and rest of football hierarchy on such issues, its good that he left the club because otherwise it could give opportunity to players like Rashford play one boss against another.

On another note, this line "getting the best out of Rashford on the field is making him feel involved and loved and getting him closer to goal; it's psychological and tactical" is just another hint of how much Rashford has lost the plot. He has been the main man at United for years now and instead of introspecting why he hasn't performed, he thinks the problem is that he isn't loved enough??
May be we didn’t give him a cake on birthday.
 
Okay. So Rashford is not at fault here then?

This team been languishing at the bottom of the barrel for years, no player is taking responsibility and there are tremendous disciplinary issues. The situation is so bad that even promising players are joining our team and are losing their confidence and are unable to perform. At this point a new management comes in, tries to initiate a cultural reboot where players who perform on pitch and in training are preferred over those who don't. So far so good. In this process many players such as Rashford, Casemiro, Eriksen are forced to warm the bench. The manager clearly puts it out that those who perform will get a chance and gives the said players a chance in the initial days.
The media baits our star by linking managers comments to him and only him, although the comment was applicable to many players and many players were subjected to the same treatment. The star player blurts outs that he wants a new challenge. The manager responds saying there is a new challenge right here. The star player does not perform up to the standard needed.
Now the fans have a choice, either side with the manager or a player who has seen many managers get sacked. You can support Rashford all you want cause he is an academy product and what not, but the bottom line is even if Tony Pulis is our coach and he calls out Rashford for his unprofessional attitude then I will stand by him. Just because he is Pulis doesnt make his vote moot. RA will be judged for his skills when the time is right, but for now the club has to back the manager or else we are looking at a new manger in June this year, and I am sorry I cannot deal with another manager getting fired.
 
I agree with all of these responses to the ridiculous post about "babyish behaviour" from Amorim. As takes on the situation go, that's one of the worst I've heard. Rashford has been excluded because his effort in training, and all the behaviour associated with his approach to professionalism etc., is below the standard required for a Manchester United player. The ONLY ways through that are to either (a) leave, or (b) raise your standards to those required.

Rashford clearly doesn't want to do (b) or it would've happened already. It's not difficult to go into work every day, with a positive, professional attitude, and give 100%. Especially when your job is playing fecking football. If a player thinks they are too good for that, or can't find the motivation to do it, then they serve zero purpose for the club. By reintegrating them into the team, you undercut everything you are trying to achieve in raising standards. "Hey everyone, if you don't give 100% and carry yourselves with the upmost professionalism, you won't be part of the team. Except Marcus of course, he can't be arsed but I'm putting him in the team anyway." Doesn't really have a ring to it.

No player is bigger than the club, and especially not a player that hasn't delivered anything of note in the last 18 months. Rashford, unfortunately, is the product of his environment. Here was a player who rose to prominence under famed disciplinarian Louis Van Gaal. He came onto the scene as an all action, tireless, forward. A player who made endless runs into the channels, pressing, behind the lines. Was constantly moving, and buzzing around. He was a real force of nature. He gradually started developing his game, filled out tremendously, became a really exciting and explosive inside forward....but over the OGS era, we started to see more and more player power come to the fore. It has reared it's head during the Mourinho era. OGS famously was fairly lax when it came to discipline and training. Preferring a more laissez-faire approach to the game. A move to "bring the joy back". And in fairness to him, he did very well for two seasons. But as he hit a rocky patch, the squad didn't have the discipline, grit, or determination to pull themselves out of it. The ended up as a bunch of moody, man-boys, who didn't want to do the hardwork and wanted everything their own way. Ragnick saw this when he came in, and was palpably shocked by the lack of professionalism throughout the squad.

Rashford never recovered from this. His key formative years were at his boyhood club, getting paid 300k+ a week, in an environment dominated by player power, overseen by an indulgent, profligate board who indulged his ridiculous attitude because he was a "star". Now reality has bitten. There is a whole new structure, no more indulgence of prima-donna's, exacting standards, sensible recruitment, resetting of cultural and professional standards, and a lot of the players are apparently not keen to conform. Those players have to go. Sancho is gone, Rashford will be next. It is their loss, not ours. Absolute ruthlessness is required. There is nothing to prevent Marcus from coming into training tomorrow, to pull the manager aside and say "Boss, I was wrong, I can see that now. I want to give it all, I want to be at this club, I want to learn, I want to improve, and you can count on me to give 100% every time I step onto the training field", and then to go out there an actually do it. Absolutely nothing to stop him from doing that except (a) his pride, (b) his attitude, or (c) his (lack of) motivation or ambition.

There is virtually no player I would indulge outside of the standards, except for perhaps peak Messi, or an iconic leader like Cantona.....but the reason those players were so good in the first place, is because they worked so hard and led by example. So it's a moot point. What you don't do is indulge and make exceptions for a player without 9 goals in past 60 games, who spends 90% of the game walking or trotting about.

There was a point in time where with Garnacho, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial, I thought United had potentially one of the best strike forces in the world. 3 from the academy, and one signed as a teen. They were to come to represent everything that was good about Manchester United. 3/4 are now abject failures in terms of this club, and a fifth young talent and major signing, Jadon Sancho, has gone the same way. In nearly every case, the problem hasn't been talent, it has been attitude, discipline, character, and work ethic etc. That should tell you everything you need to know about the type of culture we have had at this club for the last decade. How does one club produce so many top young talents, and then have all of those talents fall off because of off the field, or lack of application reasons? Unless there is a serious cultural problem at the club.....

The work Ineos and Amorim are doing to change the culture, is the single most important work done since Fergie left. It's more important than results right now, and it's more important than trophies this season. Anything we achieve in the short term (cup wins under ETH for example) are just papering over the cracks of a broken, rotten institution. Ineos are now fixing the foundations, and things will get ugly as a result. Players, big players, will leave. Results will suffer. Sacrifices will have to be made. Dirty laundry will be aired. The list goes on. But it is VITAL that we stay the course. That we reset and rebuild this club with the cast iron discipline and high standards that drove it to success over the 30 years Fergie was here. To be the best, to compete with the best, you have to have an environment that demands excellence in everything. That exudes application, dedication and hard work. That makes intelligent, data driven decisions, and uses facts rather than emotion to drive decision making.

Zero exceptions, zero tolerance for application underperformers, and a close knit culture. A player can play badly, and still be a part of the squad, if that player is giving 100% to the cause, and doing everything they can to improve. A player can play well, but be sold or dropped, if they are only giving 50 or 75%, but the effects of indulging that player, spreads to everyone and everything.

TL;DR - Sell Rashford.
This is absolutely spot on.
 
He has been the main man at United for years now and instead of introspecting why he hasn't performed, he thinks the problem is that he isn't loved enough??
I'll add it to the list.

Rashford is underperforming because he needs;

- to play LW
- to play up front
- Shaw behind him
- a good right winger to compliment him
- a girlfriend
- a steady manager
- a strong leader to help him on the pitch
- to be loved

If we just get those few things we'll have our 17 league goals a season player back