Manuel Ugarte | Signs for United

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Infestissumam said:
haven't really seen him play, but the Telegraph had this chart yesterday:

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interesting. Feel that's the right profile next to Mainoo, but you never know until you see it in action.
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So he is essentially a N’Golo Kante. It couldn’t be a bad thing, by all means
 
AltiUn said:
Especially given he's only 23, you're talking about having potentially a young Kante for years.
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Kante at 23 hadn't even moved to Leicester yet. Statsos will point out the similarity is on those ball-winning stats and not others like progressive carries. That's a relevant dimension indeed, but my take is you have the core of what made peak Kante great, build on that. Kid had his debut aged 15 as an AM so it's very workable.

Another popular statso take these past few weeks was on how low volume his progressive passing is, which it is, we are not signing Carrick. The odd thing is they would then go on to bum someone with three times as much volume... but half the completion rate. Our main problem is winning the ball back, our next biggest one is giving it away for fun. He will help on both counts.

Agree with others Roy Keane was a freak and we would be blessed if he got anywhere close to his level any time soon.

As far as Ugarte is concerned, the attitude, drive and laser focus on being his best self is the most critical ingredient in whether you believe he can fulfil that and be a rock for us whoever the manager/style.

On that, I posted this on the transfer forum earlier this week (thread closed, dunno how to quote):

Article that walks you through his background and evolution as a player. What I found most remarkable was a story showing that despite having his first team debut aged 15 and getting called up to train with Uruguay's U20 aged 16, he didn't let it get to his head but very much the opposite.

After what was a sparring session alongside the older kids (who went on to win the U20 South American championship), he went up to his dad and told him:
  1. He didn't even touch the ball
  2. His daily morning training with the experienced domestic league seniors wasn't enough
  3. He needed to move up a level or he wouldn't make it as a pro beyond their level, so
  4. He had made arrangements with one of the NT fitness coaches (all by himself, aged 16) to go to the athletics course were he worked and get better conditioning.
  5. His dad would pick him up from training at noon, he would eat a packed lunch in the car and do physical training 1-5pm.
"How often?", his dad asked. "Every day". His parents wouldn't let him skip college, so he just skipped classes and completed it by studying for exams on his own after 6pm.

That's the sort of attitude and single bloody mindedness I want at the club.

Fret not, ETH will love him.
 
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We now have a really solid squad, in my opinion. ETH needs to get a tune out of the forwards, because if we can score 2-3 goals pr. game consistently, we will get a lot of wins with this defense and midfield.
 
Alemar said:
So he is essentially a N’Golo Kante. It couldn’t be a bad thing, by all means
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Said this a couple of weeks back, the execs must've thought to themselves that Kanté made such a huge impact at Leicester and Chelsea which inspired them to actively look for the most similar player.
 
Sir Erik ten Hag said:
Last time people said we'd found our new Roy Keane, that player was Schneiderlin...
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To be fair Casemiros first season was the best box to box player we’ve had since Keane and the few really good Anderson performances. Madness really we’ve ignored it when all the best teams have a few box to box machines who used to rip through us every game
 
So its fair to say he won't be involved tomorrow then? From what I understand he's not really had a preseason with PSG, and so isn't remotely match fit. Shame, would have loved him clobbering Liverpool's midfielders.

Oh well, at least he has the international break to get up to speed with fitness and settling in.
 
saik said:
I agree. They should have went for Alvarez like you suggested. Hopefully next summer we can take on your suggestions and get in Alvarez and Tagliafico so that we won't end up with more deadwood signings like Ugarte who wasn't wanted by the manager.
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Alvarez would have been a lovely signing. Outrageous that we let him and Kudus join West Ham.
 
antohan said:
Kante at 23 hadn't even moved to Leicester yet. Statsos will point out the similarity is on those ball-winning stats and not others like progressive carries. That's a relevant dimension indeed, but my take is you have the core of what made peak Kante great, build on that. Kid had his debut aged 15 as an AM so it's very workable.

Another popular statso take these past few weeks was on how low volume his progressive passing is, which it is, we are not signing Carrick. The odd thing is they would then go on to bum someone with three times as much volume... but half the completion rate. Our main problem is winning the ball back, our next biggest one is giving it away for fun. He will help on both counts.

Agree with others Roy Keane was a freak and we would be blessed if he got anywhere close to his level any time soon.

As far as Ugarte is concerned, the attitude, drive and laser focus on being his best self is the most critical ingredient in whether you believe he can fulfil that and be a rock for us whoever the manager/style.

On that, I posted this on the transfer forum earlier this week (thread closed, dunno how to quote):

Article that walks you through his background and evolution as a player. What I found most remarkable was a story showing that despite having his first team debut aged 15 and getting called up to train with Uruguay's U20 aged 16, he didn't let it get to his head but very much the opposite.

After what was a sparring session alongside the older kids (who went on to win the U20 South American championship), he went up to his dad and told him:
  1. He didn't even touch the ball
  2. His daily morning training with the experienced domestic league seniors wasn't enough
  3. He needed to move up a level or he wouldn't make it as a pro beyond their level, so
  4. He had made arrangements with one of the NT fitness coaches (all by himself, aged 16) to go to the athletics course were he worked and get better conditioning.
  5. His dad would pick him up from training at noon, he would eat a packed lunch in the car and do physical training 1-5pm.
"How often?", his dad asked. "Every day". His parents wouldn't let him skip college, so he just skipped classes and completed it by studying for exams on his own after 6pm.

That's the sort of attitude and single bloody mindedness I want at the club.

Fret not, ETH will love him.
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What I think a lot of people are missing is WHERE on the pitch he wins the ball back. His heat map suggests that it’s pretty high up the field in the opposition half the vast majority of the time. This means that it’s actually quite difficult for him to make a progressive pass at that point, unless it’s a through ball on goal.

Statistically speaking, progressive passes are calculated as a forward pass that covers a certain distance. It follows logic that if he was winning the ball back, and his average heat map was quite deep, then he’d have the opportunity for a lot of progressive passes, but when the vast majority of his interceptions and ball winning activities are done pretty high up the field, it makes sense that most of his passes will be lateral at that point.

As you say, people always find something to complain about in data, and in my experience it’s often because people fail to put that data into relevant context.

The clubs data and recruitment team have obviously done their homework on this signing, and that alone is enough to get me excited about this addition. Moreover, I’ve had the provelege of seeing some absolutely top drawer performances from him for Sporting and Urugiay. It’s hard to judge his time in PSG. He was in and out of the team and not sure he ever fit the system they were trying to play. No shame in that for a player who was 22 upon arrival.

Think we’ve gotten a great player at a great price and one who very much has his best years ahead of him.
 
Sarni said:
Alvarez would have been a lovely signing. Outrageous that we let him and Kudus join West Ham.
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Agree. It's also outrageous that he let Timber go to Arsenal and preferred duds like Hojlund instead of getting in Brobbey. ETH needs to be sacked on the spot for these scandalous decisions.
 
simonhch said:
What I think a lot of people are missing is WHERE on the pitch he wins the ball back. His heat map suggests that it’s pretty high up the field in the opposition half the vast majority of the time. This means that it’s actually quite difficult for him to make a progressive pass at that point, unless it’s a through ball on goal.
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His heatmap does suggest that indeed but I'm not giving it for granted that I) that's how he will be deployed, II) we provide the same platform as PSG for such a heatmap to materialise. His heatmap for the NT would certainly look different.

That said, the stats are for same games so the point re progressive passes vs Casemiro and his heatmap is valid.
 
antohan said:
His heatmap does suggest that indeed but I'm not giving it for granted that I) that's how he will be deployed, II) we provide the same platform as PSG for such a heatmap to materialise. His heatmap for the NT would certainly look different.

That said, the stats are for same games so the point re progressive passes vs Casemiro and his heatmap is valid.
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I also agree that past data points are no indication of future deployment, and I will be interested to see how we actually use him. But as you acknowledge, what his past usage by PSG does give us, is the appropriate context within which to assess his much discussed key data points, such as progressive passing. Context matters.

It doesn’t answer a question such as “if he plays deeper for United will he be an effective progressive passer?”, but it does answer why his progressive passing stats look the way they do.
 
simonhch said:
What I think a lot of people are missing is WHERE on the pitch he wins the ball back. His heat map suggests that it’s pretty high up the field in the opposition half the vast majority of the time. This means that it’s actually quite difficult for him to make a progressive pass at that point, unless it’s a through ball on goal.

Statistically speaking, progressive passes are calculated as a forward pass that covers a certain distance. It follows logic that if he was winning the ball back, and his average heat map was quite deep, then he’d have the opportunity for a lot of progressive passes, but when the vast majority of his interceptions and ball winning activities are done pretty high up the field, it makes sense that most of his passes will be lateral at that point.

As you say, people always find something to complain about in data, and in my experience it’s often because people fail to put that data into relevant context.

The clubs data and recruitment team have obviously done their homework on this signing, and that alone is enough to get me excited about this addition. Moreover, I’ve had the provelege of seeing some absolutely top drawer performances from him for Sporting and Urugiay. It’s hard to judge his time in PSG. He was in and out of the team and not sure he ever fit the system they were trying to play. No shame in that for a player who was 22 upon arrival.

Think we’ve gotten a great player at a great price and one who very much has his best years ahead of him.
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Okay, but I'm more concerned about how a defensive midfielder who spends most of his time high up on the pitch pressing the opponent is going to be accomodated on a team like ours, with an emphasis on quick turnovers, frequently losing the ball in s vulnerable posture? Who'll stay deep to provide security? Because I kind of figured that's what we needed a defensive midfielder for. What he seems to bring is great, no problem there, but I just struggle to see how we make room for it.
 
Anyone extremely concerned that we are going into an International break, and we all know our luck with injuries!
 
justsomebloke said:
Okay, but I'm more concerned about how a defensive midfielder who spends most of his time high up on the pitch pressing the opponent is going to be accomodated on a team like ours, with an emphasis on quick turnovers, frequently losing the ball in s vulnerable posture? Who'll stay deep to provide security? Because I kind of figured that's what we needed a defensive midfielder for. What he seems to bring is great, no problem there, but I just struggle to see how we make room for it.
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Have some comfort in knowing that he plays deeper for Uruguay.
 
peridigm said:
I don’t get why they have international breaks so soon after summer competitions.
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The season should have no international breaks, and then end in April. May should be international training and then June should be a month long festival of international football. Qualification odd years, then continental and World Cups on the even years. Everyone would love watching it rather than resenting it half the time like we do now. Players would get a proper break in July - preseason could be August and the club game could kick off in September.
 
diarm said:
The season should have no international breaks, and then end in April. May should be international training and then June should be a month long festival of international football. Qualification odd years, then continental and World Cups on the even years. Everyone would love watching it rather than resenting it half the time like we do now. Players would get a proper break in July - preseason could be August and the club game could kick off in September.
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I’ve said this for years and I don’t understand why it’s never happened. Can only presume it’s for financial reasons. It would also benefit clubs because they wouldn’t have to worry as much about players getting injured and being unavailable.
 
JJ12 said:
I may very well be making a fuss over nothing of course. I would rather my manager understand from the off that Ugarte was a better option than McTominay and Amrabat.

"Ten Hag was cooler on Ugarte, partly because his arrival was always likely to necessitate the sale of Scott McTominay
The United manager was also still open to signing Sofyan Amrabat on a permanent basis after impressing at the end of last season as a holding midfielder, particularly in the FA Cup final. A deal was still possible despite the expiry of United’s option to buy as part of his loan from Fiorentina"

I just don't like the above. But the below paragraph is far more encouraging, in terms of collaboration.

But Ten Hag was brought around to Ugarte in meetings with the other members of the recruitment structure, where he was shown video clips of the 23-year-old’s performances and came to appreciate his ball-winning ability and qualities out of possession.
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So manager has preference but is open to other ideas and is going along with better options without putting his ego first. Not sure what people are finding an issue with that?
 
Between De Ligt and Licha in the back, Ugarte in the midfield and Zirkzee upfront, we could establish ourselves as quite a menacing side, terrorizing and putting fear into our opponents

I would be totally here for that!
 
A bit of common sense would be for him to stay in England over the international break and get settled in Manchester.

But no doubt the federations will drag him half way around the world.
 
NewGlory said:
Between De Ligt and Licha in the back, Ugarte in the midfield and Zirkzee upfront, we could establish ourselves as quite a menacing side, terrorizing and putting fear into our opponents

I would be totally here for that!
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I reckon Hojlund puts himself around more than Zirkzee
 
peridigm said:
I don’t get why they have international breaks so soon after summer competitions.
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Because feck FIFA

I admit, I fecking hate international football. Don't know many fans of club football that feel differently
 
IrishRedDevil said:
I reckon Hojlund puts himself around more than Zirkzee
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Yes, Hojlund is no pushover either, but Zirkzee seems more of a physical unit that most defenders would not want to clash with
 
pratyush_utd said:
So manager has preference but is open to other ideas and is going along with better options without putting his ego first. Not sure what people are finding an issue with that?
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I think we all agreed that part was a positive to be fair
 
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