Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement

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Ugarte may be 6ft, but he is poor in the air. Thinking he would compensate for the Martinez issue is not really gonna work.
 
sourdough satellite said:
So who's gonna win the ball? because Mainoo is not a ballwinner either.
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Who was the ball winner in Carrick-Scholes partnership?

There are more than one way to setup your team. If we go for Ugarte, we need to mentally ready for more hoofball.

But honestly at this point, I'll take anyone, that is the level of neglect and disarray which is our midfield.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Who was the ball winner in Carrick-Scholes partnership?

There are more than one way to setup your team. If we go for Ugarte, we need to mentally ready for more hoofball.

But honestly at this point, I'll take anyone, that is the level of neglect and disarray which is our midfield.
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Carrick.
 
Highfather_24 said:
I know, it was more of a rhetorical question. Carrick wasnt a typical ball winner either, relying more on his reading of the game and positioning.
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Carrick won lot of tackles, it's a myth that he didn't and relied on positioning.
 
TheRedHearted said:
Isn’t that for the better? Heard valuation was too high and we could do better
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It depends on which angle you look at it. We definitely need a DM who is mobile, a ball-winner, and can cover ground. Trying to negotiate with PSG, who refused 200 million for Mbape with a year left on his contract will be tricky. I agree with most here that the fee is high, he is a year older and seems to not fit into Luis Enriques's plans. Plus the optics will be that we funded their Joao Neves deal.

What I would be extremely happy about is a loan with an option to buy a set at an X amount. I know we normally don't do these deals, but if we can't move Casemiro, Scott or Eriksen, I don't think we will have the room for him anyway. Funds also seem to be an issue for his transfer.
 
Vidooq said:
It depends on which angle you look at it. We definitely need a DM who is mobile, a ball-winner, and can cover ground. Trying to negotiate with PSG, who refused 200 million for Mbape with a year left on his contract will be tricky. I agree with most here that the fee is high, he is a year older and seems to not fit into Luis Enriques's plans. Plus the optics will be that we funded their Joao Neves deal.

What I would be extremely happy about is a loan with an option to buy a set at an X amount. I know we normally don't do these deals, but if we can't move Casemiro, Scott or Eriksen, I don't think we will have the room for him anyway. Funds also seem to be an issue for his transfer.
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What do you mean we won’t have room?

He would literally come in and replace Amrabat’s place in the squad, albeit as 1st choice and Casemiro being the back up.

Agreeing a fair price and having the funds are the only issues here, not space.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Who was the ball winner in Carrick-Scholes partnership?

There are more than one way to setup your team. If we go for Ugarte, we need to mentally ready for more hoofball.

But honestly at this point, I'll take anyone, that is the level of neglect and disarray which is our midfield.
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I think Ugarte will help us move away from hoofball. He’s excellent at recycling possession and I can see him acting like a half back dropping into defence whilst Dalot moves in field to be first receiver with Mainoo.

Ugarte is no Xavi but he will improve us in that regard, mark my words.
 
Zed is not dead said:
Or maybe I saw him play week in week out whether on TV or at the stadium and I can tell you that he’s nothing special.
Why not if it’s a loan, but anything in excess of 30m would be stupid from us
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I'll just disagree with you and go by the many analysis of the player which all say he's a top talent and one of the best in his particular role.
 
daba said:
What do you mean we won’t have room?

He would literally come in and replace Amrabat’s place in the squad, albeit as 1st choice and Casemiro being the back up.

Agreeing a fair price and having the funds are the only issues here, not space.
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I've completely forgotten about him. My feeling is still that at least one of these 3 will need to be moved, as we added Mainoo last year to the midfielder crop. Ideally two, Casemiro and Scott.
 
dinostar77 said:
I'll just disagree with you and go by the many analysis of the player which all say he's a top talent and one of the best in his particular role.
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There isn't "many analysis".
There is one and he's a poster on the caf. He has some good points but also some less relatable comparisons. One being Ugarte is Kante esque.
 
VP89 said:
There isn't "many analysis".
There is one and he's a poster on the caf. He has some good points but also some less relatable comparisons. One being Ugarte is Kante esque.
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Theres a thing called Google it's a search engine. There are articles from other sites on there. There is video analysis on YouTube from other channels. There was a piece in the guardian about him I think and how Kante like he is.

Let's agree to disagree and move on.
 
VP89 said:
There isn't "many analysis".
There is one and he's a poster on the caf. He has some good points but also some less relatable comparisons. One being Ugarte is Kante esque.
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Do you only get your info from the caf? There are plenty of sources for a breakdown of Ugarte's attributes, the Athletic did a great one recently. The broad summary is he's a monster ball winner and excellent at ball retention, but a bit safe in possession as his progressive passing stats are on the low side, though not fatal. His defensive and ball retention stats are about as high as they get.
 
Mr Smith said:
Do you only get your info from the caf? There are plenty of sources for a breakdown of Ugarte's attributes, the Athletic did a great one recently. The broad summary is he's a monster ball winner and excellent at ball retention, but a bit safe in possession as his progressive passing stats are on the low side, though not fatal. His defensive and ball retention stats are about as high as they get.
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Hence the Kante comparison as he is also a good dribbler.
 
This is transfer story has serious Nicolás Gaitán/ Wesley Sneijder vibes. Be one that was never meant to be
 
Ugarte is regularly compared to Kante.

In fact even his own teammate Lucas Hernandez said "He reminds me of N'Golo Kante", as per a Sky Sports article from last week titled "N'Golo Kante-like ball-winner could help shore up Erik ten Hag's midfield". You can also see this article from back when he was at Sporting that uses Kante as a comparison.

It's not a comparison to read too much into, or a suggestion he's as good as Kante. They're just describing a monster ball-winner with a big engine who hunts for the ball, as opposed to being the sort of DM who sits. Kante is an obvious point of reference.
 
dinostar77 said:
Theres a thing called Google it's a search engine. There are articles from other sites on there. There is video analysis on YouTube from other channels. There was a piece in the guardian about him I think and how Kante like he is.

Let's agree to disagree and move on.
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If you look hard enough you can find anything on Google. It doesn't change the fact that some views are better informed than others, that's all I'm saying..
 
Mr Smith said:
Do you only get your info from the caf? There are plenty of sources for a breakdown of Ugarte's attributes, the Athletic did a great one recently. The broad summary is he's a monster ball winner and excellent at ball retention, but a bit safe in possession as his progressive passing stats are on the low side, though not fatal. His defensive and ball retention stats are about as high as they get.
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Do you? I don't think he is Kante esque in the way he plays. The other poster pointed to a youtube vid uploaded by a caf member. And reliance on stats is dicey. Not every ball winner is Kante esque.
 
Vidooq said:
This one will be tricky to complete. I doubt PSG will budge on their valuation.
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They will. No one is signing him for more money than they paid, and everyone knows he's surplus. We are also the only team interested capable of getting a decent fee, so as much as they want to play hardball, it won't end up at 70 million.
 
The loan offer with obligation doesn't seem to be going anywhere whatsoever
 
PSG: we are not selling Ugarte for a loss. Pay his full price of £60m (whatever). Period.
MU team to Mendes: Stink up the place.
Mendes to PSG: we are unhappy.
L.Enrique to PSG: get rid.
MU to PSG: okay. You value him that high. We respect that but we want to be sure he can do it if we pay FULL PRICE. Your manager don’t want him. He is unhappy. So, here is a perfect solution: we pay his wages, £10m rent fee and have an option to buy him for £60m. If he excels during the rent, we will pay bonuses: £5m for EPL Team of the Year, etc. We guarantee game time. Your asset will not decrease in value, you potentially can earn money. How that sounds? Or else, we can pay his market value of £40n RIGHT NOW.
PSG: sighs. Ok let’s look at a loan.
 
MyOnlySolskjaer said:
Licha losing duels has never been an issue for us. He's combative enough.
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VP89 said:
Why does Martinez need compensating? He's not bad in aerial duels.
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Withnail said:
What's the Martinez issue? He doesn't actually get beaten in the air
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He's not bad at all, but he's no powerhouse aerially either, for obvious reasons. That's why ETH chose to opt for McT so often last season to compensate, and also Casemiro as a DM, or Alvarez in Ajax days. Against teams which bombard aerially, Maguire was also often used. Its not necessarily just to defend crosses, but for both attacking and defensive setpieces. Its obvious stuff guys, not an knock on Martinez at all, who is a worldclass player.
 
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daba said:
I think Ugarte will help us move away from hoofball. He’s excellent at recycling possession and I can see him acting like a half back dropping into defence whilst Dalot moves in field to be first receiver with Mainoo.

Ugarte is no Xavi but he will improve us in that regard, mark my words.
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Ehh, I doubt that. Amrabat is excellent at recyling the ball safely too, doesnt help when there is a crazy press against us, and then we crap our pants and hoof it long. To escape the press, you need a technically gifted player, or someone with excellent passing acumen. Joao Neves was of that profile, but he joined PSG. Now the same agent is trying to broker a deal for Ugarte to us, and for a similar price, so I'm underwhelmed.
 
Highfather_24 said:
He's not bad at all, but he's no powerhouse aerially either, for obvious reasons. That's why ETH chose to opt for McT so often last season to compensate, and also Casemiro as a DM, or Alvarez in Ajax days. Against teams which bombard aerially, Maguire was also often used. Its not necessarily just to defend crosses, but for both attacking and defensive setpieces. Its obvious stuff guys, not an knock on Martinez at all, who is a worldclass player.
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This doesn't make a lot of sense. Licha was injured virtually all season why do you say him no powerhouse in the air was a reason for starting McTominay all year?

Also, Ugarte is certainly no powerhouse in the air either.
 
VP89 said:
This doesn't make a lot of sense. Licha was injured virtually all season why do you say him no powerhouse in the air was a reason for starting McTominay all year?

Also, Ugarte is certainly no powerhouse in the air either.
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You need to have height in your team, just for setpieces alone. If you have a sub 6ft CB in your team, you need to compensate it from elsewhere. This is not a controversial thing, its a team sport, that's how it works.

And I agree regarding Ugarte, which was my point.
 
Mr Smith said:
Do you only get your info from the caf? There are plenty of sources for a breakdown of Ugarte's attributes, the Athletic did a great one recently. The broad summary is he's a monster ball winner and excellent at ball retention, but a bit safe in possession as his progressive passing stats are on the low side, though not fatal. His defensive and ball retention stats are about as high as they get.
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Mate, some people just refuse to listen. There's no point. They'll just say "The Athletic" is wrong, I'm an armchair fan and I know better etc etc.

I watched the athletic breakdown of Ugarte and was impressed with how highly his defensive stats rate across Europe. He's an absolute machine.

But we shouldnt pay more than £30mil for him apparently cause he's about the same level as McT or some other rubbish. Its daft. Paulinha is the only player in Europe with higher defensive stats than Ugarte and he went to Bayern at age 29 for close to €60mil. Ugarte is 23, and next down on the list from paulinha for defensive stats, so €60mil sounds reasonable for a player 6 years younger and yet to hit his peak years.

But no we shouldn't pay more than £30mil cause some armchair fans know better.

Just daft and illogical.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Who was the ball winner in Carrick-Scholes partnership?

There are more than one way to setup your team. If we go for Ugarte, we need to mentally ready for more hoofball.

But honestly at this point, I'll take anyone, that is the level of neglect and disarray which is our midfield.
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Carrick was a weird player (in a good way). He was essentially a deep lying playmaker ie great vision and passing range. On that regard he was just a notch below the likes of Pirlo who, prior to Scholes moving in a deeper role, was the uncontested king on that regard. However what Carrick also had was a superb defensive awareness (positioning, anticipation, scanning etc) and of course a 6ft2 frame. In terms of inches it made him a beast, physically wise especially considering that DMs were rarely that tall. Keane was in fact 5ft11, Ince was 5ft10 and Casemiro is 6ft1. Carrick would scan the game, he'll anticipate the attacking option who would then find himself going 1 v 1 against a 6ft2 player with the physicality expected from a 6ft2 midfielder. The guy lacked Keano's grit but he was built like a brick wall.

Yet what made SAF and therefore United great was their ability to find balance. Carrick had, at his back, the best defense United had ever had (Gaz/Wes, Rio, Vidic and Evra). SAF would utilize Park who was a work rate beast and he'll utilize Rooney and Teveth to counter for Ronaldo's lack of work rate. That winning formula allowed Carrick and Ronaldo to thrive in.

Ugarte is a bit like Gattuso. He's got good positioning, an unlimited level of energy and he can tackle all day however he is also perfectly aware of his limitations. That means that he's a safe passer. Safe passers won't open defenses wide like a Zidane or a Scholes would but you can rest assured that they won't lose the ball. In fact Ugarte's has a 91.76% passing accuracy. What it does though is relying on others to do the killer pass ie Mainoo, Eriksen, Bruno and Mount. That's hardly hoof ball
 
Highfather_24 said:
You need to have height in your team, just for setpieces alone. If you have a sub 6ft CB in your team, you need to compensate it from elsewhere. This is not a controversial thing, its a team sport, that's how it works.

And I agree regarding Ugarte, which was my point.
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You didnt make a lot of sense, McTominay didn't start more last season because we had Licha. And height is pointless if the player is poor in the air. Zirkzee is 6ft 4 and apparently had a 40(!)% win rate in his aerial duels. Thats below average.
 
ThinkTank@Cafe said:
PSG: we are not selling Ugarte for a loss. Pay his full price of £60m (whatever). Period.
MU team to Mendes: Stink up the place.
Mendes to PSG: we are unhappy.
L.Enrique to PSG: get rid.
MU to PSG: okay. You value him that high. We respect that but we want to be sure he can do it if we pay FULL PRICE. Your manager don’t want him. He is unhappy. So, here is a perfect solution: we pay his wages, £10m rent fee and have an option to buy him for £60m. If he excels during the rent, we will pay bonuses: £5m for EPL Team of the Year, etc. We guarantee game time. Your asset will not decrease in value, you potentially can earn money. How that sounds? Or else, we can pay his market value of £40n RIGHT NOW.
PSG: sighs. Ok let’s look at a loan.
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Not sure that's exactly how it's going down but yeah I agree that Loan + Option to buy is what we'll do on the Ugarte deal. PSG were posturing saying they want an obligation to buy for 70M EUR but they're never going to get that. I do think he's class and fully expect us to trigger the buy option next season.
 
VP89 said:
You didnt make a lot of sense, McTominay didn't start more last season because we had Licha. And height is pointless if the player is poor in the air. Zirkzee is 6ft 4 and apparently had a 40(!)% win rate in his aerial duels. Thats below average.
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Yeah I used height/aerial prowess interchangeably, but yes.

Forget McT, he was used more last season because he was in good goalscoring form too(but his aerial ability/physicality is definitely a factor, its obvious). You are being purposefully obtuse and refusing to see the larger point, which is we need to have people in the team who are aerially good. CBs are usually that, so if one of them is not that, you need that compensated from elsewhere, its why we have Casemiro, its why ETH used Alvarez. Rather than someone who is weak in the air.
 
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