Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement

[DJ_21]

He looks fit but the performances I have seen so far Casemiro has looked poor

He was great last game. His passing was really good. Looked sharp.

 

[Highfather_24]

Dalot starts

My hot take is Mazraoui is better. It will be a good contest nonetheless.

 

[Dazzmondo]

I think we would have seen more progress on this if it was going to happen. Personally, I think Casemiro could be great again this season anyway. Players can have 1 bad season and bounce back. Not sure why everyone's so certain he can never improve, given he was one of the best midfielders in the league the previous season.

Neves is the one we should have been signing imo but he's gone to PSG now. Better off getting a cheap backup for the position than spending the crazy amounts being demanded for Ugarte

 

[izec]

My hot take is Mazraoui is better. It will be a good contest nonetheless.

He wont be fit for half of the games.

 

[Grand Vizier]

I think he is being underrated on here and I also think people are underrating the effect a proper, strong and physical ball winner with endless stamina can have on the team and our performances. Yes, he is a safe passer but his primary role isn't to be the playmaker in our midfield. He will win the ball back and give it to our midfielders that are tasked with progressing the ball. One of our main problems was that any team in the league - even the bottom teams - could dominate our midfield quite easily because we had no player in midfield that had an interest in winning the ball back, and if they did, they didn't have the legs for it and opposition midfielders and attackers could pretty much run past them with no problems. That's not going to happen with Ugarte and he will force errors and mispasses even if he doesn't win the ball back with a tackle or interception.

I've seen some talk about his passing being terrible here. It really isn't, it's just that he isn't a very progressive passer. Look at Palhinha, he makes a lot fewer passes than Ugarte, worse pass completion and even worse progressive passing, yet no one seems to have any problems calling him one of the best defensive midfielders in the league, and Bayern had no issues paying £47m for him.
People also seem to forget that Kanté wasn't a particularly progressive passer, either, but he was a pretty good ball carrier.

In my opinion, this is a crucial signing for our midfield and absolutely essential if we want to improve as a team and not be dominated by most midfields.

 

[Judas]

I still think this happens.

My hot take is Mazraoui is better. It will be a good contest nonetheless.

is this a hot take? I think most think Mazzaoui is better, but the likelihood of him being barely available is the big negative.

 

[dubplate warrior]

He looks fit but the performances I have seen so far Casemiro has looked poor

He's looked good in my opinion. It's because he's not been asked to play a single pivot and exposed by suicidal tactics.

Casemiro's legs aren't the same but he still has a nose to sniff out danger. In a double pivot he's still a good player.

 

[AneRu]

I think he is being underrated on here and I also think people are underrating the effect a proper, strong and physical ball winner with endless stamina can have on the team and our performances. Yes, he is a safe passer but his primary role isn't to be the playmaker in our midfield. He will win the ball back and give it to our midfielders that are tasked with progressing the ball. One of our main problems was that any team in the league - even the bottom teams - could dominate our midfield quite easily because we had no player in midfield that had an interest in winning the ball back, and if they did, they didn't have the legs for it and opposition midfielders and attackers could pretty much run past them with no problems. That's not going to happen with Ugarte and he will force errors and mispasses even if he doesn't win the ball back with a tackle or interception.

I've seen some talk about his passing being terrible here. It really isn't, it's just that he isn't a very progressive passer. Look at Palhinha, he makes a lot fewer passes than Ugarte, worse pass completion and even worse progressive passing, yet no one seems to have any problems calling him one of the best defensive midfielders in the league, and Bayern had no issues paying £47m for him.
People also seem to forget that Kanté wasn't a particularly progressive passer, either, but he was a pretty good ball carrier.

In my opinion, this is a crucial signing for our midfield and absolutely essential if we want to improve as a team and not be dominated by most midfields.

Yeah people underestimate the effect the ability to snap at players and win the ball in midfield would have on our attack. His role isn't for the build up, I suspect he would play higher than Mainoo in the first phase, he will be the presser and Mainoo will be developed as the first phase build up player and sweeper in behind - he doesn't have the physique for a box to box 8. If Ugarte wins the ball and lays it off to Bruno, 9/10 times that's a goalscoring chance.

 

[Insanity]

We have offered 50m euro which has not been accepted yet , they want 60m euro.
So I don't know why people talk in the region of 40m euros.

Secondly we could have spent 27m on Amrabat for a straight sale last summer...

I think 10m for a season was worth it , as now we can see 27m would have been too much for him.

Where did you read we bid 50m EUR?

It wasn't worth it at all. It was a ridiculous amount for a player of his quality. We didn't need to waste 10m + salary to see that he is not a United quality player.

 

[The Irish Connection]

I think the comparison to Rice is a good one. He has improved at forward passing at Arsenal but at West Ham Rice was a very sideways and backwards passer, but he won the ball a lot and could carry it well.

 

[croadyman]

I think we would have seen more progress on this if it was going to happen. Personally, I think Casemiro could be great again this season anyway. Players can have 1 bad season and bounce back. Not sure why everyone's so certain he can never improve, given he was one of the best midfielders in the league the previous season.

Neves is the one we should have been signing imo but he's gone to PSG now. Better off getting a cheap backup for the position than spending the crazy amounts being demanded for Ugarte

We have gone through the Neves deal on here before, there was clearly more to that deal than meets the eye

 

[Cheimoon]

My hot take is Mazraoui is better. It will be a good contest nonetheless.

He wont be fit for half of the games.

I still think this happens.



is this a hot take? I think most think Mazzaoui is better, but the likelihood of him being barely available is the big negative.

That's for the Mazraoui thread please.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Assuming United want a destroyer in DM, who is an alternative to Ugarte? The Sociedad midfielder seems a different type of player

 

[Plastic Evra]

Assuming United want a destroyer in DM, who is an alternative to Ugarte? The Sociedad midfielder seems a different type of player

There's honestly not a lot of those that could be in the market. Looking at a list, they all moved this summer (Onana, Palhinha), play for top clubs in Europe or the PL we compete with.

Y.Fofana but different profile it seems. Alvarez at West Ham but probably super expensive if we inquired ?
Andrich at Bayer but he's 29 ?

 

[dinostar77]

I think he is being underrated on here and I also think people are underrating the effect a proper, strong and physical ball winner with endless stamina can have on the team and our performances. Yes, he is a safe passer but his primary role isn't to be the playmaker in our midfield. He will win the ball back and give it to our midfielders that are tasked with progressing the ball. One of our main problems was that any team in the league - even the bottom teams - could dominate our midfield quite easily because we had no player in midfield that had an interest in winning the ball back, and if they did, they didn't have the legs for it and opposition midfielders and attackers could pretty much run past them with no problems. That's not going to happen with Ugarte and he will force errors and mispasses even if he doesn't win the ball back with a tackle or interception.

I've seen some talk about his passing being terrible here. It really isn't, it's just that he isn't a very progressive passer. Look at Palhinha, he makes a lot fewer passes than Ugarte, worse pass completion and even worse progressive passing, yet no one seems to have any problems calling him one of the best defensive midfielders in the league, and Bayern had no issues paying £47m for him

People also seem to forget that Kanté wasn't a particularly progressive passer, either, but he was a pretty good ball carrier.

In my opinion, this is a crucial signing for our midfield and absolutely essential if we want to improve as a team and not be dominated by most midfields.

I agree, most crucial signing of the summer for me. Only paulinha has higher stats last season than Ugarte. He will make a massive difference to our midfield.

 

[The-Mezzala]

Assuming United want a destroyer in DM, who is an alternative to Ugarte? The Sociedad midfielder seems a different type of player

Probably Hjulmand at Sporting. But they want silly money also. What happened to the links to Joao Gomes form Wolves. Saw a few rumours when INEOs took control that he was high on their list. But it died down.

 

[MyBloodIsRed]

This will be a loan with buy next summer…. Only because we need to buy the two boys from Bayern to bolster the defense.

 

[Bobski]

I still think that Ugarte and Mainoo as a pairing would have sub-optimal passing range. Kobbie has very promising ability to progress the ball in different ways but ideally you would want the starting midfield to have at least one player with a more expansive range to open the play up.

 

[Igor Drefljak]

I still think that Ugarte and Mainoo as a pairing would have sub-optimal passing range. Kobbie has very promising ability to progress the ball in different ways but ideally you would want the starting midfield to have at least one player with a more expansive range to open the play up.

Problem with that is Mainoo sounds like the problem by that statement.

You’re basically wanting a top DM with exceptional passing as well. Not many of them about, let alone available

 

[flameinthesun]

PSG will definitely want Ugarte off the books one way or another whether a transfer or loan now that they have Neves. Reckon we can wait this one out until later in the window and just rely on Casemiro. Wouldn't be surprised if PSG end up letting him go out on loan with option to buy.

 

[Bobski]

Problem with that is Mainoo sounds like the problem by that statement.

You’re basically wanting a top DM with exceptional passing as well. Not many of them about, let alone available

It is not about him being a problem, it is constructing a midfield that is balanced. Mainoo will very likely develop his passing range but it may take time, giving him a partner who is very good at winning the ball but rather limited with it doesn't seem sensible.

May be entirely wrong, hope that I am if he is signed but transfer optimism often overrides logic among fans.

 

[Igor Drefljak]

It is not about him being a problem, it is constructing a midfield that is balanced. Mainoo will very likely develop his passing range but it may take time, giving him a partner who is very good at winning the ball but rather limited with it doesn't seem sensible.

May be entirely wrong, hope that I am if he is signed but transfer optimism often overrides logic among fans.

That’s fine, but you mention logic, so whose your suggestion to partner him?

 

[dinostar77]

I still think that Ugarte and Mainoo as a pairing would have sub-optimal passing range. Kobbie has very promising ability to progress the ball in different ways but ideally you would want the starting midfield to have at least one player with a more expansive range to open the play up.

The double pivot will vary according to the opposition. Ugarte and Casemiro is a pairing you could see him use often.

Mainoo is still very young we don't know how he will develop, his range of passing may become more expensive. The Toni Kroos of 18 years old or the Paul Scholes of 18 years old weren't the same players when they were 24/25, they learnt, improved and added more strings to their bow.

The more expensive passing range is why Pogba used to get a pass from people because no one else in the team could pull off that sort of pass.

 

[Bobski]

That’s fine, but you mention logic, so whose your suggestion to partner him?

I don't know, it is difficult to identify an ideal candidate, you need someone with decent mobility who can cover ground and with some play-making ability. That doesn't automatically make Ugarte a must buy. There is also the possibility that Mainoo might not take a step forward this season, would be very typical for a young player.

Ideally I would not be a fan of adding one dimensional players to the squad.

 

[Plastic Evra]

I guess that's the most economical solution in personnel. Add Ugarte and now you can pair Case with a lighter workload, Mainoo or even Eriksen that could be more viable if he had a defensive monster besides him.

 

[sullydnl]

It is not about him being a problem, it is constructing a midfield that is balanced. Mainoo will very likely develop his passing range but it may take time, giving him a partner who is very good at winning the ball but rather limited with it doesn't seem sensible.

May be entirely wrong, hope that I am if he is signed but transfer optimism often overrides logic among fans.

Don't think you will be wrong.

But the reality is that there doesn't seem to be any player on the market that addresses our most immediate midfield problem (i.e. defensive output in midfield) and also happens to be a very progressive passer with a wide passing range. And if there was, they'd likely cost us a lot more than Ugarte.

So it's a case of picking your poison, trying to compensate in other areas, and hoping Mainoo develops more in time either defensively or in terms of ball progression. Because for as long as he isn't outstanding in either regard, finding an ideal partner for him is difficult.

 

[Igor Drefljak]

I think this deal makes perfect sense if we can get him for around 35-40m

He solves a problem for us, and that’s protecting the back 4
We’ve got Mainoo who needs to grow as a player and the same with Collyer.

Our midfield is going to rotate depending on the opposition and you’re just not gonna get much for less that 40m these days

 

[giggs-beckham]

Is he better than Ander Herrera

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

I think this deal makes perfect sense if we can get him for around 35-40m

He solves a problem for us, and that’s protecting the back 4
We’ve got Mainoo who needs to grow as a player and the same with Collyer.

Our midfield is going to rotate depending on the opposition and you’re just not gonna get much for less that 40m these days

Reckon it’s going to be a loan with option to buy rather than a straight up transfer deal.

 

[dinostar77]

 

[Dominos]

How many loan + obligation to buy deals do you actually see? I feel like they're floated but so rarely actually happen, like swap deals. But I could be wrong.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

How many loan + obligation to buy deals do you actually see? I feel like they're floated but so rarely actually happen, like swap deals. But I could be wrong.

Italian teams used to I think but yeah it doesn’t seem common. More likely it’d be an option but with a high loan cost so PSG cover themselves if Utd refuse the option

 

[AS18_]

I think this will finish fairly quickly once/if Mctominay leaves.

 

[Mr Smith]

I still think that Ugarte and Mainoo as a pairing would have sub-optimal passing range. Kobbie has very promising ability to progress the ball in different ways but ideally you would want the starting midfield to have at least one player with a more expansive range to open the play up.

Look i dont disagree with you, but where is that expansive passer in the market though? With the exception of Joao Neves who I would have loved to have signed (but would have made fir a very inexperienced midfield with Mainoo), I don't really see that profile of player available in the market. There's also the risk that the player profile you're talking about with Mainoo is too lightweight and gets overrun if he's not also a great ball winner, which means you're basically looking for a Rodri. I'm find with us focusing on brawn and security first, especially given the passing ability of both Mainoo and Ugarte could be improved given their age profile.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I thought it was loan plus option to buy being discussed. Would rather 5m extra but it being our option.

 

[Cloud7]

It is not about him being a problem, it is constructing a midfield that is balanced. Mainoo will very likely develop his passing range but it may take time, giving him a partner who is very good at winning the ball but rather limited with it doesn't seem sensible.

May be entirely wrong, hope that I am if he is signed but transfer optimism often overrides logic among fans.

The issue with this is that these players who are able to be a proper defensive shield as well as having a great passing range are exceptionally rare.

Off the top of my head there's Carrick, Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Rodri over the last decade.

We can't just hold out for the ideal player. We need to improve the team however we can, and arguably our biggest issue last season was that our midfield would get run through 50 times per game. If Ugarte helps fix that, then I see his transfer as a win. If we need to adapt how the team goes forward because we don't have any player who pulls the strings from deep, then that's what we have to do. If a Carrick regen appears in two years time I would be all for getting him in at that point, but we can't not try to improve the team because we don't have the ideal player.

 

[whitbyviking]

I think he is being underrated on here and I also think people are underrating the effect a proper, strong and physical ball winner with endless stamina can have on the team and our performances. Yes, he is a safe passer but his primary role isn't to be the playmaker in our midfield. He will win the ball back and give it to our midfielders that are tasked with progressing the ball. One of our main problems was that any team in the league - even the bottom teams - could dominate our midfield quite easily because we had no player in midfield that had an interest in winning the ball back, and if they did, they didn't have the legs for it and opposition midfielders and attackers could pretty much run past them with no problems. That's not going to happen with Ugarte and he will force errors and mispasses even if he doesn't win the ball back with a tackle or interception.

I've seen some talk about his passing being terrible here. It really isn't, it's just that he isn't a very progressive passer. Look at Palhinha, he makes a lot fewer passes than Ugarte, worse pass completion and even worse progressive passing, yet no one seems to have any problems calling him one of the best defensive midfielders in the league, and Bayern had no issues paying £47m for him.
People also seem to forget that Kanté wasn't a particularly progressive passer, either, but he was a pretty good ball carrier.

In my opinion, this is a crucial signing for our midfield and absolutely essential if we want to improve as a team and not be dominated by most midfields.

This for me is the biggest reason we currently need a midfielder of his type. The effect on the opposition midfield of not playing against a non existent block higher up the pitch will completely change the defensive complexion of our games. Someone like him alone has the potential to vastly reduce the number of shots we face since instead of having a high pressing turnstile, we’ll have someone in the face of the opposition stopping them doing as they please around our box. With our first choice players surrounding him his “safe” passing will be more than sufficient.

 

[Escobar]

I think this will finish fairly quickly once/if Mctominay leaves.

The problem is we font need to replace him but other players

 

[The-Mezzala]

How many loan + obligation to buy deals do you actually see? I feel like they're floated but so rarely actually happen, like swap deals. But I could be wrong.

Very common in Serie A. But not many in the Premier league.

 

[Shiva87]

Not about being positive or negative. I was happy with Zirkzee and Yoro transfers and they're great business. I'd be happy with getting any promising potential or an established player from a lower status club. With Ugarte and De Ligt, it's a familiar feeling of the transfer business we've been doing in the Woodwardian era. I can't think of many players who've had this sort of a transfer and who've succeeded in the recent era in the premier league. Odegaard maybe.

Don’t think either of them are like the transfer business under the Woodwood era.

Except Pogba, every other big player they bought was closer to their 30s and didn’t have anything to prove. Schweinsteiger, Di Maria, Sanchez, Zlatan, Varane, Casemiro etc. They were on big packages and everyone knew they were short term signings who will decline (due to age) during the course of the contract.

De Ligt and Ugarte are both players who have question marks over them and have something to prove. Both are 24 or below and still not in their prime, and for De Ligt - it’s a big opportunity to rebuild his career after a bad injury ravaged season. Don’t think he has been anywhere near as bad as people on this forum think he is (mostly because Bayern want rid). Bayern also has Vincent Company as the manager - so who knows if it’s even the right call for them to get rid of De Ligt and rely on Eric Dyer!