Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement

[VP89]

Yeah I used height/aerial prowess interchangeably, but yes.

Forget McT, he was used more last season because he was in good goalscoring form too(but his aerial ability/physicality is definitely a factor, its obvious). You are being purposefully obtuse and refusing to see the larger point, which is we need to have people in the team who are aerially good. CBs are usually that, so if one of them is not that, you need that compensated from elsewhere, its why we have Casemiro, its why ETH used Alvarez. Rather than someone who is weak in the air.

No my friend I am not being purposefully obtuse. I don't think you can use height and aerial ability interchangeably. I gave zirkzee as an example of this. Ugarte is also not meant to be very good in the air either. At 6ft he's neither here nor there. This is the height of Shaw, Mazraoui, Dalot, Rashford etc. Before we consider De Ligt Yorro Maguire Hojlund or Zirkzee.

And a few of those guys aren't necessarily very good in the air.

Standalone height helps in some ways, such as back post and near post marking. But not in many others.

 

[Highfather_24]

No my friend I am not being purposefully obtuse. I don't think you can use height and aerial ability interchangeably. I gave zirkzee as an example of this. Ugarte is also not meant to be very good in the air either. At 6ft he's neither here nor there. This is the height of Shaw, Mazraoui, Dalot, Rashford etc. Before we consider De Ligt Yorro Maguire Hojlund or Zirkzee.

And a few of those guys aren't necessarily very good in the air.

Standalone height helps in some ways, such as back post and near post marking. But not in many others.

On this I agree with you. Thats why I said I used them interchangeably, which was wrong, I should have just said aerial ability, but I was lazy, and just wrote height instead. Ofcourse thats true, we all saw Weghorst. We all also probably remember Lahm beating Fellaini to a header.

That was my point regarding Ugarte. Despite being 6ft, he's not very good in the air, and that's something we need to keep in mind while discussing Casemiro replacement.

 

[Highfather_24]

@devilish point taken. If we can surround Ugarte with ballers like Mazraoui, Shaw, Mainoo, Martinez and Yoro/De Ligt, we might not see a lot of hoofball.

I think I was coming from the vantage of last season, where he would have been surrounded by McT, AWB, Maguire, Lindelof, Evans etc.

 

[VP89]

On this I agree with you. Thats why I said I used them interchangeably, which was wrong, I should have just said aerial ability, but I was lazy, and just wrote height instead. Ofcourse thats true, we all saw Weghorst. We all also probably remember Lahm beating Fellaini to a header.

That was my point regarding Ugarte. Despite being 6ft, he's not very good in the air, and that's something we need to keep in mind while discussing Casemiro replacement.

Yep casemiro wel miss in that regard especially when attacking the box. But hopefully our new set piece coach improves us

 

[Bobski]

Why does Martinez need compensating? He's not bad in aerial duels.

He doesn't compete for balls in the air, on Fbref he is in the bottom 1% of CB's for aerials won per 90 over the last year. A small sample size to be fair, but for the 22/23 PL season he was in the bottom 7% for aerials won so it is clearly and understandably not a strength.

Not competing for them is the smart decision on his part but when constructing a team it needs to be taken into consideration.

 

[Insanity]

Casemiro, Varane & Maguire were our three best headers of the ball. Varane has already left and it does leaving a gaping hole if Maguire is not starting. If Ugarte is also not very good in the air then we'll definitely struggle. Hopefully, our next CB addition would be an aerial beast. We need to pair Martinez with someone very good aerially to form a top partnership.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

Why some posters seem convinced Ugarte is a lumberjack? He doesn’t progress the ball but he also rarely loses it. He’s in 90+ percentile for Passes completed iirc. He is reliable and can beat a presser if needed. Weak aerials is a big problem. My gut feeling he will be paired with Casemiro against physical teams.

 

[Remember the geese]

Casemiro, Varane & Maguire were our three best headers of the ball. Varane has already left and it does leaving a gaping hole if Maguire is not starting. If Ugarte is also not very good in the air then we'll definitely struggle. Hopefully, our next CB addition would be an aerial beast. We need to pair Martinez with someone very good aerially to form a top partnership.

de Ligt and Yoro are both good in the air.

 

[daba]

Ehh, I doubt that. Amrabat is excellent at recyling the ball safely too, doesnt help when there is a crazy press against us, and then we crap our pants and hoof it long. To escape the press, you need a technically gifted player, or someone with excellent passing acumen. Joao Neves was of that profile, but he joined PSG. Now the same agent is trying to broker a deal for Ugarte to us, and for a similar price, so I'm underwhelmed.

Amrabat was average at recycling possession and pretty poor at progressing the play. Ugarte is a step up in every regard in my opinion. He’s very good at recycling possession and okay to decent at ball progression. He’s no De Jong or Veratti but he can break a line and beat a press with the ocassional body feint, Amrabat couldn’t do either.

The real value however is what Ugarte will offer off the ball, which is where we have struggled the most over the past year.

I haven’t been following your other posts but if not Ugarte who would you be targeting?

 

[NewGlory]

I have to imagine there's talks for Lindelof or perhaps Maguire going on at some level (?). The De Ligt transfer is talked about even by Bayern as basically ready to go any minute... Perhaps McTominay is the name that is put on the opposite scale ? But you'd feel it is supposed to be linked to Ugarte. RB it's clearly one out one in at the position.

Yeah, I assume Lindelof, Maguire, or both should be sold to make space for De Ligt. Maguire seems to be delusional and unwilling to move, but Lindelof hopefully more ambitious and eager to actually play

Ugarte transfer has to be linked with ability to ship off Casemiro (preferably) and/or McTominay. Clearly, Fullham wants McT, it's just if we want to sell him for the price. Casemiro case is much more dire. With Saudis out, nobody will pay his wages, and he seems to prefer sitting around and making those wages, rather than taking a paycut and having some self respect

 

[devilish]

@devilish point taken. If we can surround Ugarte with ballers like Mazraoui, Shaw, Mainoo, Martinez and Yoro/De Ligt, we might not see a lot of hoofball.

I think I was coming from the vantage of last season, where he would have been surrounded by McT, AWB, Maguire, Lindelof, Evans etc.

If you notice ETH's signings, he always made huge emphasis on ball possession. Martinez is a superb passer of the ball with 92% passing accuracy, Eriksen was in the 90%, Casemiro had 86% accuracy in La Liga and Mount has 85% passing accuracy. So what I think went wrong?


A- Similar to LVG, ETH completely ignored how physical and intensive the EPL is. Take a look at his signings. Martinez is 5ft9 ie he's shorter then Gaz is, Malacia is 5ft7 ie just an inch taller to Scholes, Anthony is 5ft9, Mount and Eriksen are 5ft11. This is a short side which in turn makes them less physical and more likely to get bullied when they go toe to toe against a typical 6ft3 EPL giant. Which leads us to B
B- A manager can come up with many sexy tactics (high line, gegenpressing etc) but ultimately when there's a corner or a set piece to defend you need tall players. Martinez can act like a big boy but 9 out of10 he'll lose an aerial duel against a Tosin whose 6ft5. Thus ETH had to concede defeat on that. In short term that lead to the vast utilization of the likes of McT whose 6ft3 frame gave us some aerial cover + physicality. Another issue with shorter players is that the physical stress when going 1v1 against a 6ft5 defender tend to be bigger when compared with that of a player of their same size. Which lead to injuries, more reliance on Mou/Ole's players who, in turn, are not suited for ETH's ball possession game.
C- The sudden decline of Casemiro and Eriksen hurt us big time. We lost alot of workrate in midfield but also our pass accuracy nosedived. Casemiro went from 86% pass acc to 80% and Eriksen from 90% to 81.9%. Add to that the loss of Martinez + Shaw and the reliance of McT, Lindelof and Maguire who are hardly great passers of the ball hurt us badly.

ETH seem to have learnt his mistake. Mazraoui, Zirkzee, Yoro, De Ligt and Ugarte are all around the 6ft-6ft4 mark. In typical ETH's tradition they are all excellent passers of the ball. De Ligt 93.1%, Ugarte 91.7%, Yoro 92.16% and mazraoui 90% are a clear upgrade over Maguire and AWB (84%) and McT (82%). Then there's a clear upgrade in terms of aggressiveness and workrate. Zirkzee and Ugarte cover an astronomical amount of distance between them.

Would that translate into creativity? I don't know. Ugarte and De Ligt had been accused of being safe passers. That means that our creative players will have to do some heavy lifting there. What's certain is that if everyone remains fit (and that's a huge if) then you'll certainly not see hoof ball

 

[Pronewbie]

Amrabat was average at recycling possession and pretty poor at progressing the play. Ugarte is a step up in every regard in my opinion. He’s very good at recycling possession and okay to decent at ball progression. He’s no De Jong or Veratti but he can break a line and beat a press with the ocassional body feint, Amrabat couldn’t do either.

The real value however is what Ugarte will offer off the ball, which is where we have struggled the most over the past year.

I haven’t been following your other posts but if not Ugarte who would you be targeting?

He's an ABU. Anyone But Ugarte.

 

[Highfather_24]

He's an ABU. Anyone But Ugarte.

I'm just skeptical of him being the right solution in our midfield, I was skeptical of Mount-Bruno-Casemiro midfield too when we signed Mount, and I was skeptical of the Casemiro signing. Weirdly I was confident about Amrabat, and look how that turned out, so its not like I'm always right. I'll be the biggest muppet if we do end up signing Ugarte, but I've been burned too many times by United' midfield signings.

Like I said before, if we had a Scholes in our midfield, I wouldnt mind Ugarte. But since we have Mainoo and Bruno, I can see some potential problems. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[Highfather_24]

If you notice ETH's signings, he always made huge emphasis on ball possession. Martinez is a superb passer of the ball with 92% passing accuracy, Eriksen was in the 90%, Casemiro had 86% accuracy in La Liga and Mount has 85% passing accuracy. So what I think went wrong?


A- Similar to LVG, ETH completely ignored how physical and intensive the EPL is. Take a look at his signings. Martinez is 5ft9 ie he's shorter then Gaz is, Malacia is 5ft7 ie just an inch taller to Scholes, Anthony is 5ft9, Mount and Eriksen are 5ft11. This is a short side which in turn makes them less physical and more likely to get bullied when they go toe to toe against a typical 6ft3 EPL giant. Which leads us to B
B- A manager can come up with many sexy tactics (high line, gegenpressing etc) but ultimately when there's a corner or a set piece to defend you need tall players. Martinez can act like a big boy but 9 out of10 he'll lose an aerial duel against a Tosin whose 6ft5. Thus ETH had to concede defeat on that. In short term that lead to the vast utilization of the likes of McT whose 6ft3 frame gave us some aerial cover + physicality. Another issue with shorter players is that the physical stress when going 1v1 against a 6ft5 defender tend to be bigger when compared with that of a player of their same size. Which lead to injuries, more reliance on Mou/Ole's players who, in turn, are not suited for ETH's ball possession game.
C- The sudden decline of Casemiro and Eriksen hurt us big time. We lost alot of workrate in midfield but also our pass accuracy nosedived. Casemiro went from 86% pass acc to 80% and Eriksen from 90% to 81.9%. Add to that the loss of Martinez + Shaw and the reliance of McT, Lindelof and Maguire who are hardly great passers of the ball hurt us badly.

ETH seem to have learnt his mistake. Mazraoui, Zirkzee, Yoro, De Ligt and Ugarte are all around the 6ft-6ft4 mark. In typical ETH's tradition they are all excellent passers of the ball. De Ligt 93.1%, Ugarte 91.7%, Yoro 92.16% and mazraoui 90% are a clear upgrade over Maguire and AWB (84%) and McT (82%). Then there's a clear upgrade in terms of aggressiveness and workrate. Zirkzee and Ugarte cover an astronomical amount of distance between them.

Would that translate into creativity? I don't know. Ugarte and De Ligt had been accused of being safe passers. That means that our creative players will have to do some heavy lifting there. What's certain is that if everyone remains fit (and that's a huge if) then you'll certainly not see hoof ball

Good post. I agree, and bolded was what I pointed out in the previous page.

I know the players we have bought are good passers, but I think we still lack a natural playmaker in the first phase of play, which Eriksen played brilliantly in his debut season, or old Scholes used to do for us. Mainoo and Ugarte are both good ball carriers, but I think we need a profile of someone who can switch play too.

Eventually the team has to replace Bruno with that sort of player imo, because we'll need a ballwinner/#6, and Mainoo is also a mainstay.

 

[antohan]

Why some posters seem convinced Ugarte is a lumberjack? He doesn’t progress the ball but he also rarely loses it. He’s in 90+ percentile for Passes completed iirc. He is reliable and can beat a presser if needed. Weak aerials is a big problem. My gut feeling he will be paired with Casemiro against physical teams.

It's bizarre really. The moment someone doesn't spray passes like Pirlo they become some sort of useless antifootball neanderthal.

He has a fantastic engine, will cover ground, unsettle opposition'a buildup and win the ball back.

When he wins it back, he is press resistant, protects the ball well and if he can't work his way out of trouble invariably draws a foul.

If suitable, he will play a diagonal ball for fullback/winger. Occasionally he will play a decent ball over the top. For the most part though, in the absence of a blatant opportunity, he will play safe passes to those around him like Licha, De Ligt/Yoro, Mainoo or Bruno, which is absolutely fine.

Where I buy concerns is that in a midfield of Ugarte, Mainoo and Bruno we would have way too many goalposts guards on set pieces. That's certainly an issue but it's more an issue across the team and midfield than one to solely beat him up with.

 

[Pronewbie]

I'm just skeptical of him being the right solution in our midfield, I was skeptical of Mount-Bruno-Casemiro midfield too when we signed Mount, and I was skeptical of the Casemiro signing. Weirdly I was confident about Amrabat, and look how that turned out, so its not like I'm always right. I'll be the biggest muppet if we do end up signing Ugarte, but I've been burned too many times by United' midfield signings.

Like I said before, if we had a Scholes in our midfield, I wouldnt mind Ugarte. But since we have Mainoo and Bruno, I can see some potential problems. Hopefully I'm wrong.

I hope we get to test your thesis. Casemiro cannot start for us.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

I really hope we get this one over the line because we simply can’t afford to go into the season with Casemiro in our first 11.

 

[Berbaclass]

 

[Rolaholic]

PSG have way too many midfielders as is and he doesnt figure in Enriques plans so wouldn't surprise me if they accepted reality and brought their asking price down later this summer but it's prudent looking at alternatives in the meantime.

Show this isn't the United of old that will panic and cough up the asking price because of need no matter what. We have to show clubs we're not willing to be fleeced anymore under any circumstances to have the 'United tax' become a thing of the past.

 

[Jericholyte2]

God fecking damnit

 

[Orange Tree]

Will sign for Aston Villa or something for half the asking price late in the window.

 

[Leftback99]

Never really seemed on this one.

 

[Nero]

Good decision. The old regime would have overpaid.

 

[Remember the geese]

That's a blow

 

[Rolaholic]

That's a very sensible approach and I rate Ugarte and believe he'd be a great addition. Just not at any cost especially when P$G are the ones without much leverage yet are pushing a hard line.

 

[Uncle Mainoo]

There trying to mug us off. Serve them right. Let’s move on. Even though Zubimendi is probably more expensive if we can’t negotiate down the release clause.

 

[Nickosaur]

Yeah as frustrating as it is, it's the correct decision.

 

[2 man midfield]

It’s both annoying and exactly what we’ve wanted from the club for 10 years.

Can’t go into the season with just Casemiro though. Let’s hope we’ve got someone else lined up.

 

[Devil_forever]

Good, PSG asking for the exact fee they paid for him shows you how selling clubs view us, it's about time we change that viewpoint. I have a lot of respect for City walking away from targets when they deem the fee to be too high and they're owned by a state. Omar's city modus operandi starting to show maybe.

 

[Plastic Evra]

If the money ain't there...
Alvarez at West Ham ? I doubt he'd be much cheaper but I know as a defensive 6 he had a good debut. Seems proficient in the same areas as Ugarte. 25 or 26.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

Hmm.

Never really seemed to have any high tier tweets suggesting it was imminent. And the longer it's dragged on, getting quieter and quieter, the less likely it's felt.

Hopefully some agreement will be reached eventually, or some positive progress will be made with an alternative. Though not heard much about any other DM's?

 

[leontas]

Doubt any other club will come in and pay what PSG are asking for.

 

[RedRocket9908]

So yet again we spend the whole summer chasing a player only for it to fall through in August and leave us having to pannick sign someone else

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

Who we getting then? Muppet guesses please!

 

[Carl]

I'm just skeptical of him being the right solution in our midfield, I was skeptical of Mount-Bruno-Casemiro midfield too when we signed Mount, and I was skeptical of the Casemiro signing. Weirdly I was confident about Amrabat, and look how that turned out, so its not like I'm always right. I'll be the biggest muppet if we do end up signing Ugarte, but I've been burned too many times by United' midfield signings.

Like I said before, if we had a Scholes in our midfield, I wouldnt mind Ugarte. But since we have Mainoo and Bruno, I can see some potential problems. Hopefully I'm wrong.

For the record, no one thought Casemiro, Mount and Bruno would be a good idea. Apart from, well, you know..

 

[RonaldoVII]

Could just be bluffing. PSG surely need to sell a couple this window. Unless Mbappe's exit and saved salary covers everything.

 

[pocco]

Amrabat and done in midfield I reckon.

 

[Rolaholic]

So yet again we spend the whole summer chasing a player only for it to fall through in August and leave us having to pannick sign someone else

We're taking the opposite approach here though...

The panic move here would've been coughing up their asking price.

We haven't let it until deadline day or the final week for once and have already been speaking to alternative targets.

Wouldn't surprise me if we see Rabiot or Zubimendi links soon again.

 

[MDFC Manager]

For the record, no one thought Casemiro, Mount and Bruno would be a good idea.

Unfortunately the only man that mattered, did think that