Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement

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I'm a bit worried about this, because I'm seeing some knowledgeable people with no skin in the game who are convinced Ugarte isnt all that. Is this really the player we need for that role?
 
FujiVice said:
I'm a bit worried about this, because I'm seeing some knowledgeable people with no skin in the game who are convinced Ugarte isnt all that. Is this really the player we need for that role?
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He's a very good energetic ball winner, but is only tidy on the ball and isn't suited to sitting deep as a classic #6, is my take. So I guess it depends how we want to setup and who we want next to Mainoo & Bruno.

I think he could work well, though you could argue a more traditional #6, perhaps with more height would be a better fit. We'll be relying on Mainoo to hold his position a little more and (along with the CB's) progress the ball through the lines for us, if we're to make him work.

What I don't understand is talk of Zubimendi as an alternative, as he's a very very different player. Ugarte feels far more in line with Neves, if a little worse on the ball.
 
No one player has everything.

One of the great things about football is you have 11 players on the field, all with different attributes, and to do well need to find a way to get the best out of them.

To top it off, they’re human, so relatively inconsistent and reacting to 11 more who are equally varied in the attributes and consistency.

The perfect team, or the perfect player, doesn’t exist. If they did football would be pretty boring.

This obsessing over ‘x player doesn’t have this’, ‘y player is too short’ and so on is really tiring.

As is the constant bed wetting when we lose a game / trophy. Nobody wins them all!!!

Would recommend more people watch games on TV with the commentary off and think for themselves.

Enjoy the ride!
 
Don't really understand people turning their noses up at Ugarte...he would be coming to a team that conceeds circa 25 shots a game to the likes of Brentford , Brighton , Wolves etc.
18 shots conceded Vs Coventry FFS.

Only signing we have made so far that could change that this season , is Yoro.
Who probably won't contribute much this side of xmas.
Ugarte is so badly needed it hurts.
 
Syphon Wallet said:
Don't really understand people turning their noses up at Ugarte...he would be coming to a team that conceeds circa 25 shots a game to the likes of Brentford , Brighton , Wolves etc.
18 shots conceded Vs Coventry FFS.

Only signing we have made so far that could change that this season , is Yoro.
Who probably won't contribute much this side of xmas.
Ugarte is so badly needed it hurts.
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Look you have a point but I do get the reservations.

Ultimately we want to be competing at the top, and we have had a glaring lack of quality in midfield since Fergie retired.

It just feels like we are always plugging holes and we never have the quality to go head to head with your City's.
 
Berbasbullet said:
Look you have a point but I do get the reservations.

Ultimately we want to be competing at the top, and we have had a glaring lack of quality in midfield since Fergie retired.

It just feels like we are always plugging holes and we never have the quality to go head to head with your City's.
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Through years of negligence and not making signings we should have been making we are unfortunately miles off and we are gonna need a few of these improvement players but not quite elite level to get back to competitive levels.

Also, bear in mind players that teams like Liverpool and Arsenal signed before their ascension. Some of the names were scoffed at hard by a lot of people.
 
BluesJr said:
Through years of negligence and not making signings we should have been making we are unfortunately miles off and we are gonna need a few of these improvement players but not quite elite level to get back to competitive levels.

Also, bear in mind players that teams like Liverpool and Arsenal signed before their ascension. Some of the names were scoffed at hard by a lot of people.
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That first paragraph sums it up perfectly, quite honestly I'm unsure what will give us a breakthrough in this deal because looks stuck in stalemate
 
FujiVice said:
I'm a bit worried about this, because I'm seeing some knowledgeable people with no skin in the game who are convinced Ugarte isnt all that. Is this really the player we need for that role?
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I think he's going to be a slightly more mobile Casemiro. Maybe a less attacking Ander Herrera, a player I really liked. A loan for him would be a great solution until we see how he does and how ETH plays him. Still trying to work out where Mount's going to play.
 
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I’m good with a loan for the man. If he craps his shorts, we cut out losses short. If he reigns supreme, he’s ours.
 
Berbasbullet said:
Look you have a point but I do get the reservations.

Ultimately we want to be competing at the top, and we have had a glaring lack of quality in midfield since Fergie retired.

It just feels like we are always plugging holes and we never have the quality to go head to head with your City's.
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We need to be able to beat the Brentfords consistently before we can worry about competing with City. That requires throwing shit at a wall while waiting for your youngsters to grow.

Under the old regime our shit hasn't been sticking, but hopefully under the new regime they'll have better concepts of squad building and when we do make big purchases they hit the ground running.
 
Syphon Wallet said:
Don't really understand people turning their noses up at Ugarte...he would be coming to a team that conceeds circa 25 shots a game to the likes of Brentford , Brighton , Wolves etc.
18 shots conceded Vs Coventry FFS.

Only signing we have made so far that could change that this season , is Yoro.
Who probably won't contribute much this side of xmas.
Ugarte is so badly needed it hurts.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I wanted him last summer, and to get him now for the same price as last summer is a nice opportunity. We absolutely need someone who is mobile, wins tackles, and doesn't give the ball away. He's the man for that, and he's a perfect age. We’re not winning the league this season. We can add more creative players to Ugarte next summer, and we’ve got Kobbie coming through.
 
I don't like the expensive loan fee upfront with an option deals. We tried the same with Amrabat and ended up paying 10m EUR and his salary for a season. Which turned out to be way too costly as we didn't exercise the buy option (at least not yet).

A loan with an obligation if we think the player is good enough would be better, imo. He is not more than a 40m-45m EUR player and we should negotiate the obligation around that.

If FFP is an issue and obligations are counted in this season's books, then loan with an option which turns into obligation based on certain criteria would be good as long as we are not paying a lot of money upfront like we did in the Amrabat deal.
 
If we persist with 3-1-6 buildup structure, I dont know why Ten Hag is so adamant on having the '1' being a player not comfortable on the ball like Casemiro/Ugarte.

Cant see this ending well. Give it maximum of 2-3 weeks before CAF turns on him and starts calling him a headless chicken.
 
OleGunnar20 said:
He's a very good energetic ball winner, but is only tidy on the ball and isn't suited to sitting deep as a classic #6, is my take. So I guess it depends how we want to setup and who we want next to Mainoo & Bruno.

I think he could work well, though you could argue a more traditional #6, perhaps with more height would be a better fit. We'll be relying on Mainoo to hold his position a little more and (along with the CB's) progress the ball through the lines for us, if we're to make him work.

What I don't understand is talk of Zubimendi as an alternative, as he's a very very different player. Ugarte feels far more in line with Neves, if a little worse on the ball.
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Why is he not suited to playing as a classic #6?

It seems to be generally accepted that Ugarte is a Kante-like destructive box-to-box runner and hassler - has he ever actually been used like that, next to/ ahead of a holding midfield teammate? Every time I've seen him he has been the deepest midfielder - he certainly wouldn't stop Mainoo from having the freedom to move forward from a box-to-box/ link/ #8 position.

Sure, we'll be relying on Mainoo and the centre backs to provide the more penetrative passes, but with Kobbie being the silky baller that he is we should be complimenting him with a more robust, combative partner. Those aggressive, physical players tend not to excel so much with a ball at their feet.
 
If we manage to move McTominay on for £25 million then bringing Ugarte in on a loan with say a £10 million loan fee and option to buy at £40 million as well as Rabiot on a free would be not only a great deal but also very good business, would just need to move Lindelof and Eriksen on too so we could bring in De Ligt.
 
Highfather_24 said:
If we persist with 3-1-6 buildup structure, I dont know why Ten Hag is so adamant on having the '1' being a player not comfortable on the ball like Casemiro/Ugarte.

Cant see this ending well. Give it maximum of 2-3 weeks before CAF turns on him and starts calling him a headless chicken.
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Since when we're they not comfortable on the ball? They're not dictators or play, but they are very comfortable on the ball.
 
Lash said:
Since when we're they not comfortable on the ball? They're not dictators or play, but they are very comfortable on the ball.
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Yeah thats what I meant, that they dont facilitate play. If you are the sole connecter between the defense and the 6 players higher up, that's like the first basic requirement.
 
Rolaholic said:
Where have you seen an obligation to buy mentioned?

Everything I've seen talks about an option to buy rather than obligation
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I've seen the opposite, pretty much everywhere the potential deal has been discussed.
 
I think this thread especially serves to highlight the dissonance within some in the fanbase between how the team is being set up to play, vs how they want to see us play. Ugarte is a square peg for a square hole.
 
If Ugarte proves good enough, like Madrid did with Casmeiro the rest of the team needs to compensate for his deficiencies. So we need to eventually have a 10 / attacking 8 who is brilliant on the ball and impossible to get the ball off, to replace Bruno. Otherwise it’ll once again be just Mainoo capable in tight spaces. You can’t fill the team with too many players who need to be compensated for.
 
Oh yeah, I think we agree really. The point I was trying to make was that his game is best suited to being given freedom to press and harry the opposition, sometimes further upfield, rather than strictly hold his position in front of the defence ala a Busquets or Makelele for example.

I think this kind of player would be very well suited to a double pivot alongside Mainoo, with Mainoo I'm sure intelligent enough to pick his moments to hold or move forward. I really hope we get him in.
 
FujiVice said:
I'm a bit worried about this, because I'm seeing some knowledgeable people with no skin in the game who are convinced Ugarte isnt all that. Is this really the player we need for that role?
Click to expand...

Limited technically but great ball winner. Not a number 6. Can be effective in a 3 man midfield winning balls higher up the pitch.
 
Ichabod Ferguson said:
They might have been reported like that, but they wouldn’t have been for the simple reason that UEFA counts loans with obligations as certain transfers from a financial point of view.

They actually have to get pretty creative with it, because even loans with basically certain options don’t get around that:

Loan of a player from the lender club to the new club with an unconditional obligation to buy
a) The loan must be reflected by the lender club as a permanent transfer and the player’s registration rights must be derecognised from its intangible assets. The proceeds from the loan and from the future permanent transfer must be recognised from the inception of the loan agreement.
b) The direct costs of the loan and the future permanent transfer for the new club must be recognised by the new club in accordance with the accounting requirements for permanent acquisition of a player’s registration

Loan of a player from the lender club to the new club with a conditional obligation to buy
a) If a condition is considered to be virtually certain, then the player’s registration must be recognised by both clubs as a permanent transfer from the inception of the loan agreement.
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Fair enough, I mostly assumed that they just put vitrually certain conditions, but if those are covered then I have no idea how clubs get around that when they brief journalists around loans like that.
 
Highfather_24 said:
If we persist with 3-1-6 buildup structure, I dont know why Ten Hag is so adamant on having the '1' being a player not comfortable on the ball like Casemiro/Ugarte.

Cant see this ending well. Give it maximum of 2-3 weeks before CAF turns on him and starts calling him a headless chicken.
Click to expand...
He has tended to change this style in the friendlies this summer, watch the game against Betis and it goes to a 3-3-1-3 in build up with Casemiro dropping back into the 3 Eriksen was the pivot in the second line of 3 to receive the ball and then with Amad/Mount/Sancho rotating as the deepest of the 4 attackers/number 10 and only Marcus really staying high.

Amass went left on the second row of 3 and sometimes AWB moved up to right wing while Mason or Amad dropped to right invert of the second row of 3, it was actually really good for about 65 minutes.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Yeah thats what I meant, that they dont facilitate play. If you are the sole connecter between the defense and the 6 players higher up, that's like the first basic requirement.
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I guess it depends what you're expecting from them. Casemiro is looser in possession - so I prefer him in the 8 and think that's actually his natural position, but Ugarte is comfortable receiving the ball in the 6 position and moving the ball wide on short distances into the midfield. If someone like Dalot/Mazraoui/Shaw/whoever is the next LB tucks into midfield, they can progress the ball better and Ugarte can keep it simple.
 
Trophy Room said:
Limited technically but great ball winner. Not a number 6. Can be effective in a 3 man midfield winning balls higher up the pitch.
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Limited technically seems a bit harsh. From what I've seen of him he's more than comfortable with the ball at his feet, but perhaps has a limitless passing range and isn't a mazy dribbler.

I don't think these two things necessarily make a player technically limited. That makes it sound like he's the Uruguayan Cattermole, which isn't true at all.
 
We need someone who won't let Joelinton and Guimares run wild against us or let Onana and McGin dominate our midfield. Ugarte won't take any prisoners and with Mainoo and Bruno infront of him we need this type of player. Lokonga and Ross Barkley dominated our midfield last season for Luton for crying out loud. We need steel and legs in there and Ugarte does that. Wins it and lays it off to the more creative players.
 
devilsadvoca8 said:
We need someone who won't let Joelinton and Guimares run wild against us or let Onana and McGin dominate our midfield. Ugarte won't take any prisoners and with Mainoo and Bruno infront of him we need this type of player. Lokonga and Ross Barkley dominated our midfield last season for Luton for crying out loud. We need steel and legs in there and Ugarte does that. Wins it and lays it off to the more creative players.
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Well said. The above type is the player we need right now with the way our squad is set up.
 
devilsadvoca8 said:
We need someone who won't let Joelinton and Guimares run wild against us or let Onana and McGin dominate our midfield. Ugarte won't take any prisoners and with Mainoo and Bruno infront of him we need this type of player. Lokonga and Ross Barkley dominated our midfield last season for Luton for crying out loud. We need steel and legs in there and Ugarte does that. Wins it and lays it off to the more creative players.
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Agreed
 
Insanity said:
I don't like the expensive loan fee upfront with an option deals. We tried the same with Amrabat and ended up paying 10m EUR and his salary for a season. Which turned out to be way too costly as we didn't exercise the buy option (at least not yet).

A loan with an obligation if we think the player is good enough would be better, imo. He is not more than a 40m-45m EUR player and we should negotiate the obligation around that.

If FFP is an issue and obligations are counted in this season's books, then loan with an option which turns into obligation based on certain criteria would be good as long as we are not paying a lot of money upfront like we did in the Amrabat deal.
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We have offered 50m euro which has not been accepted yet , they want 60m euro.
So I don't know why people talk in the region of 40m euros.

Secondly we could have spent 27m on Amrabat for a straight sale last summer...

I think 10m for a season was worth it , as now we can see 27m would have been too much for him.
 
Has he resume Preseason with them?
 
People calling him limited, the midfield is crying out for a destroyer that shields the back line and wins the ball.

Martinez, De Ligt, Shaw, Dalot behind him can receive the ball from him and make the progressive passes. Then he will have Bruno, Mount, Mainoo next to him to progress the ball forward.

He is also only 23, he has plenty of time to improve, at that age you will still continuously improve.
 
Herschel Krustofsky said:
No one player has everything.

One of the great things about football is you have 11 players on the field, all with different attributes, and to do well need to find a way to get the best out of them.

To top it off, they’re human, so relatively inconsistent and reacting to 11 more who are equally varied in the attributes and consistency.

The perfect team, or the perfect player, doesn’t exist. If they did football would be pretty boring.

This obsessing over ‘x player doesn’t have this’, ‘y player is too short’ and so on is really tiring.

As is the constant bed wetting when we lose a game / trophy. Nobody wins them all!!!

Would recommend more people watch games on TV with the commentary off and think for themselves.

Enjoy the ride!
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If you know any river sources that offer the no commentary, you have my attention
 
Florida Man said:
If you know any river sources that offer the no commentary, you have my attention
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The volume button is my friend. It’s a bit weird but a lot better than having to listen to mcmoist or Dixon.

Actually, have you seen the Amazon games with the option for crowd noise only? That’s just as weird as silence, unless you pump it REAL LOUD!
 
Herschel Krustofsky said:
The volume button is my friend. It’s a bit weird but a lot better than having to listen to mcmoist or Dixon.

Actually, have you seen the Amazon games with the option for crowd noise only? That’s just as weird as silence, unless you pump it REAL LOUD!
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I’m not subscribed to Prime, but I tolerate most commentary anyway. Once upon a time, Fox Sports had the non-commentary version of CL games, which I quite enjoyed.
 
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