If he will be a great player for us, will it still be overpaying or are you going to stop crying about the fee then?
What makes you think you know better than one of the best and well known director of football in the world?
Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement
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What makes you think you know better than one of the best and well known director of football in the world?
100%. Look at the players we've had in the last 2 or 3 years alone and we've not had an ounce of the potential out of it, largely because of the setup and the way we want to play quick transitions. Even the likes of Amrabat and Sabitzer have proven they can function in a well organised midfield, but they looked crap here because we turn it into a game of individual quality instead. It was the same under Ole too.
As a coach I don't believe Ten Hag values the sort of control in midfield that we crave. They're a functional position that contribute to quick transitions, or trying to recover from high positions to help defensively. I've never once thought our midfield outplayed another collectively, perhaps better individually. But this has been the case even when we have far better players in midfield, which is actually the case in 90% of games. Yet apparently we need even better players to control the midfield against the PL whipping boys.
We don’t even know what the deal struck might/is going to be yet (we’ll probably never know the intricacies, like with most transfers, so it’ll be hard to judge).
The club have shown a different approach to transfers this summer. They’ve stepped away from the Branthwaite when the demands were absurd, worked effectively to get seemingly good deals from Bayern for a double transfer (which is rare in itself) & bagged a player dubbed a generational talent from the clutches of the current European Champions.
A €5~€10m ‘overpayment’ for a player (in the eyes of some fans) pales into comparison when taking into account assembling the majority of our squad on reasonable salaries. Long term, the wage we pay our squad will have a much more significant impact on our spend ability rather than the headline transfer figure. If we sign this guy on around £150k pw (which might be a reasonable guess - INEOS seem to be working hard to bring down the wage bill), Casemiro will cost us over £10m more this year alone in wages.
With all that said, I’d advocate we just try to enjoy the players we bring in, and hope they come in and perform for us, without worrying too much about the fine details of how much they might be costing the club.
Edit: typo
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Sure, we can retrospectively look at things and say Sancho was not worth his fee, but at the time many thought he was worth it, every transfer is a risk but some are considered good at the time due to the potential of the player.
I also think the current management can be judged on this summer transfers, and in my opinion, I think they are doing a good job, especially with the current signings and even if they overpay for Ugarte, I will still this this transfer window is a good one for INEOS
He's the biggest moaner on YouTube. He does a weekly 1 HR episode with Rhodes and many keep on asking for timestamps
It is only bad in terms of the fee, they paid 60m for him last summer, and the same manager is binning him, so I think he is not worth what they are asking, some reports said they asked for 70m! and my hope is the club gets the deal on lower fee, 45m-50m is not little, and if the club ends up paying what PSG asks, I would still be pleased we got the player, but it will be a bad deal in terms of the fee.
As I said to another poster, I like the player and even if the club overpaid, I will still be pleased that he is signed with us, I just don't like the fact the club overpaying for a player who is deemed surplus to requirements by his current manager.
and on the bolded, this is forum where people discuss and share what they think, so there is no need to belittle anyone's opinion, other posters are discussing with me on good faith and so should you.
Great post. Totally agree with this.
Seems like our fans isn't happy unless our transfers are total bargains
I am with you on everything you said, especially the bolded part, and it seems a good summer and I will still be happy for us to get Ugarte over the line, I was just expressing my thoughts on why I think we should not overpay for Ugarte, I even mentioned once that Yoro is worth overpaying for as many other clubs wanted him.
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm not belittling yours. I am genuinely asking why you think this is a bad deal when Ugarte is considered one of the best defensive midfielders in the world at 23 years of age. Just because a manager doesn't prefer him when he is already loaded in midfield doesn't eradicate the player's value.
Would you react the same if PSG bought him for €100m? Are you upset because PSG don't lose money on the transfer, and we usually do?
I just fail to understand why you're so hung up over the fee when it's not even that much. We are not in a position to negotiate like you want because we are desperate for a midfield upgrade and there aren't many in that position with that skillset on the market.
Ashworth and Berrada already got in Yoro, de Ligt, Mazraoui and Zirkzee and they're all highly rated and signs are promising, so why do you react like that on the Ugarte deal? They seem to be fine with it and are clearly among the best at identifying players for clubs in the footballing world, so it's just weird for me to see someone be overly pessimistic about the transfer fee when it's a completely decent fee for a very good, young midfielder.
Well he wasn't a good fit at PSG but that doesn't necessarily mean he performed poorly or his value has dropped.
Even if I agreed with your assessment if it was 45-50m with 10-15m in difficult to achieve add-ons, how would that still be a bad deal?
It would be interesting to compare Ugarte’s stats to those of Leandro Paredes, who was his predecessor at PSG.
I have huge doubts about Ugarte and definitely do not rate him as one of the best DMs in the world.
I saw him play with PSG, I saw him playing live at Parc des Princes, and what I saw was a rash player easily pulled out of position, not really comfortable under pressure, and a player who looked lost in high intensity UCL games.
I pray to be wrong, but he’s definitely not the type of player that will help with possession. He’s more Fred than Kante.
The big positive with Ugarte is that he’s quite fast so he’ll help mop up loose balls and avoid counters from the other team.
All in all, to me, he’s definitely not a €60m player
I have huge doubts about Ugarte and definitely do not rate him as one of the best DMs in the world.
I saw him play with PSG, I saw him playing live at Parc des Princes, and what I saw was a rash player easily pulled out of position, not really comfortable under pressure, and a player who looked lost in high intensity UCL games.
I pray to be wrong, but he’s definitely not the type of player that will help with possession. He’s more Fred than Kante.
The big positive with Ugarte is that he’s quite fast so he’ll help mop up loose balls and avoid counters from the other team.
All in all, to me, he’s definitely not a €60m player
Please can we just get him done soon? Not sure my nerves are ready for another Casemiro-season.
Again, you make it sound like I am moaning and being all doom and gloom, I am not hung up on anything and I am just expressing my thoughts here, and yes the management is doing well this summer in their approach, it is just that I hoped we do not get forced to pay more than what the club initially wanted to pay or at least not compromise too much and continue getting deals done with good fees as they have done with Zirzkee, De Ligt & Mazraoui.
and on the bolded, that is also another area the club needs to improve on, yes we need to get reinforcements in midfield, but there should be work done in ensuring there are good alternatives if the main target is too expensive.
My assessment is 45-50m in total including add-ons, but I could be very simplistic in my thinking, I do not think Ugarte is a bad player or he played bad last season, but the fact that his current manager does not want him is something that brings the player's value down a bit in my opinion, if we for example had Mount playing for us last season and this season EtH thought Mount does not fit in his style, we can't expect to sell him for what we paid for him or make a profit on him, a fair valuation we could want is at least 10-15M less than what was paid to get him.
I do not want to drag this discussion and make about me strongly objecting to the player's fee, I am just saying what I think and I also want us to sign him asap.
This also reinforces some who believe that the Glazers only spend big when top four hasn't been achieved the previous season
I wonder if today will be a day of the big variety.
What is the fee? Hearing so many rumours. I really like the player. But for 51 million we have overpaid again potentially here
Seems he's the club's number 1 midfield target and the odd extra £6-7M won't put them off, which is fair enough. Especially considering PSG don't need this transfer.
If we make the signing and pay the fee being quoted, we'll find out in due time if it's worth it or not.
Obviously we'd ideally have alternatives in the same mold that we can shift our focus to, but they might feel the saved £6-7M is not worth the compromise on whatever qualities make Ugarte their first choice.
Talking about alternatives, genuinely curious, does anyone know a player in a similar mold that has similar ball winning and pass completion levels? As those are two areas we sorely lack.
If we make the signing and pay the fee being quoted, we'll find out in due time if it's worth it or not.
Obviously we'd ideally have alternatives in the same mold that we can shift our focus to, but they might feel the saved £6-7M is not worth the compromise on whatever qualities make Ugarte their first choice.
Talking about alternatives, genuinely curious, does anyone know a player in a similar mold that has similar ball winning and pass completion levels? As those are two areas we sorely lack.
Interesting, I think posts like these deserve a lot more attention (someone who has actually seen him play live, rather than YouTube compilations) and your concerns should not be ignored.
What I will say is, we can sometimes forget just how young he is - and things like positional discipline, awareness etc should improve a lot as he gets older. I think Ten Hag obviously thinks he can use his physical attributes to mould him into a great player.
I think we'll see more capital letters in the tweets today... like "REALLY PUSHING", "ADVANCED", "REALLY CLOSE", "HOURS AWAY"
Using the same exact words as we've seen in the last month, but with capital letters will show us how much closer we are today than a month ago
Much as I like what I saw from Ugarte, I have to agree with this - Ugarte is for me a young very unpolished diamond who may never shine up like you'd hope he will. He is prone to errors (wayward passes, being caught out of position), but he has a lot going for him if these flaws can be ironed out. I also think he's more a 30-35m player at most.
I'm not overly concerned that Ugarte is not a ball playing DM, that sits in front of our defense. He won't be our last midfield signing for the coming years. We identified this profile of midfielder as a priority and I can understand the reasoning behind that, after a season of beeing cut through the midfield most of the games. We seem to try to solve this problem with a new set of defenders, that allows us to play a higher line and less space between defense and midfield and more coordinated pressing, with a new line up without the ball (4-2-2-2). We can definitely do with a high tackling bullterrier-type cm. We missed Fred (Fred when playing good), since he was gone. Ugarte seems like a Fred but with a saver but also a quite uninspiring passing game.
If we decide next summer, that we could do with a more progressive passer in midfield, we will get one. And Ugarte still won't be surplus to requirements when he performs as hoped. Casemiro probably won't extend his contract, if McTominay stays he still won't be a central or defensive midfielder. We need midfielders of different profiles anyway.
If we decide next summer, that we could do with a more progressive passer in midfield, we will get one. And Ugarte still won't be surplus to requirements when he performs as hoped. Casemiro probably won't extend his contract, if McTominay stays he still won't be a central or defensive midfielder. We need midfielders of different profiles anyway.
Ugarte and Enrique came to PSG at the same time so I'm pretty sure it was a club transfer that Enrique didn't have much to say about.
Ugarte doesn't fit in how Enrique want PSG to play. This is not about Ugarte being good enough or not.
Sometimes a player just don't fit the system.
But we do need him and he'll fit in perfectly. So what with a little overpaying according to the market. Who knows really. He'll maybe be a 100 million player.
Maybe the high tempo in PL and the high amount of big games fits him. He looks like a wild pitbull that loves a fight. Player's like that usually are big game players.
And also, our reputation of overpaying isn't vanished in one window. We made atleast three very good deals money wise that will make us look more serious.
PSG basically got him for a loan
Agreed. There’s a real possibility that McTominay, Eriksen, Casemiro, Hannibal are all gone this time next year. Leaving us with Mainoo and Collyer from the current options.
I’m not against us getting a cheaper alternative who can rotate with Casemiro for this season, then going big on midfield next year.
PSG basically got him for a loan
There is no world in which we should be paying €60 million for him.
Agree with all that you said, especially the last bolded part.
Yeah I agree. Problem is people see it like Casemiro is playing > Casemiro is a CDM > Casemiro is to blame for lack of protection of defence. It's not that simple. Look at how high he plays at times, this doesn't lend itself to him shielding the defence and is not making the best use of him. We signed him for what he did at Real and then threw it all in the bin and tried to reinvent him as a player. When we were signing Amrabat and Ten Hag said he can play behind Casemiro, alarm bells were ringing straight away. I just think Ten Hag is a bit of a plonker in all honesty and I wouldn't trust him to get the most out of what is an extremely talented squad.
Funnily enough SSN were just running a comparison of Ugarte and Casemiro, comparing the number of times they lose possession, number of times they're dribbled past, number of tackles and interceptions etc. Ugarte was marginally better in all areas (though the PL will be a substantial step up from Ligue 1 - so a pretty unfair comparison). But they were talking about how Ugarte will be being signed to 'plug the gap' in Casemiro's place. Well yeah, that is partly true. But like you said, Ten Hag can't just play them in like for like roles and expect Ugarte to be able to shield counter attacks when he's in the opponents box on turnovers. You'd have to be a blend of Usain Bolt and N'golo Kante to do that. Yet nobody talks about the tactics or the way Casemiro is used a lot of the time. It's frustrating really, as it's not really his fault entirely with how last season went.
PSG basically got him for a loan
When we sell D'Maria to PSG we sold at a loss. Now, they want us to pay for their mistakes of overpaying Sporting.
Having said that, if Ugarte really is very important to ETH's system then go for it. 60m Euro pay over 5 years is not bad.
PSG basically got him for a loan
I think our deal is going to be a loan with obligation to buy, with our payments covering PSG to Sporting Lisbon. I'm happy to get him at €60m as he's pushing to join and he's what we need.
If the alternative is to waste another season thanks to CDM absence, it’s totally wrong.
There are not that many Tchouamenis or Camavingas currently for sale, so it’s a question of alternatives. If there are none, then the price may be justified
Does the CAF see him as our long term #6?
Or would you want to go for 100M Adam Wharton(or someone) next summer? If that is the case, spending 60M on a backup is steep.
Or would you want to go for 100M Adam Wharton(or someone) next summer? If that is the case, spending 60M on a backup is steep.
The exact fee structure will probably be kept very quiet and depending who and how it is reported there will be a big range.
Key point is we desperately need this kind of profile to bolster our midfield. The likes of Eriksen and McT should not see too many starting minutes (except for Europa) I hope.
Key point is we desperately need this kind of profile to bolster our midfield. The likes of Eriksen and McT should not see too many starting minutes (except for Europa) I hope.
The other point worth noting is that PSG were only able to sign him for €60m last summer because he had a release clause for that amount.
Without that release clause he would quite likely have cost more given the context of that transfer window, which was players like Rice, Caicedo, Tonali and Lavia going for €116m, €116m, €64m and €62m respectively, as well as Enzo having gone for €121m a few months earlier.
I still think he should cost less than €60m given he didn't work out at PSG this year.
But if you wanted to be an optimist and argue for an upside, you could make the case that he's still the exact same player all of PSG, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and ourselves were (to varying degrees) reported to be interested in just last summer, available for that same release clause price even though he no longer has that release clause, and available only because PSG made the mistake of buying the wrong player to fit their manager's gameplan.
He has a chance to claim the spot by putting in solid performances every week. If we get him he’ll be fighting Casemiro for the starting number 6. Which will make them both better. I still think we need a progressive number 8. Someone with some more creativity and forward passes. Is mainoo that type of player? I’m not sure yet. Maybe Ugarte unlocks more of Mainoo as he’ll be allowed to influence the game further forward a bit more.
It’s not ideal, but not too much of a problem if we still have the money to go out and get the ideal player, if one appears, and he becomes available.
I have vague recollections of midfielders being available a while ago, who we couldn’t go for because we’d spaffed £40m on Donny. I don’t want another repeat of that really.
Surely no loan fee in that case?
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