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Manuel Ugarte Uruguay flag

2024-25 Performances

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6.2 Season Average Rating
Appearances
19
Goals
0
Assists
1
Yellow cards
3
Grand Vizier said:
Then I don't think you fully followed the conversation. The poster I initially replied to mentioned that Tim Vickery regularly used to say that a midfield needs "one to win it, one to give it, one to go", describing a #6 (DM), #8 (B2B) and a #10 (creator) and made a point that a midfield trio of Ugarte (6), Mainoo (8) and Bruno (creator #10) could potentially be very good.

The point I was trying to make is that you don't need a #10 (creator) in your midfield, because all midfielders are able to create chances, particularly if your midfielders have excellent ball retention and are superb in possession (Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta / Casemiro, Kroos, Modric). So, the primary goal should not be to have a creator, but a good and balanced midfield that ensures you control the midfield. Perhaps I should have clarified that initially, but I didn't think it needed to seeing as the poster had already mentioned a number 10 as the creator.

So, instead of playing Bruno as the number 10, I think we'd improve overall and create more chances as a team if we had another box-to-box midfielder (#8) that is good on the ball and who contributes offensively. Who that is, I don't know, but that is my opinion.
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That was me.

And just to clarify, I used 4-2-3-1 (with a #10) as the example of ours because that's what we currently play with Fernandes always featuring there.

But of course that Tim Vickery quote also works for a 4-3-3 midfield that includes two number eights and a six - provided at least one of the #8's has high passing / creative levels as well. The saying is more about what qualities the midfield needs to cover, and of course the very best players can cover more than one of them on their own. In the Barcelona and Real Madrid examples you gave - Busquets and Casemiro are the ones to win it (but also good passers for DM's) and Xavi/Iniesta and Modric/Kroos both good enough to take care of the 'give it/go' parts as they were all world class all-round midfielders.

If your initial point was just the above, then fine. And, yes, it's obviously true that we could replace Fernandes with a player of the ability of some of the greatest creative CM's of recent times in Xavi, Iniesta, Modric or Kroos and we'd be even stronger.

However, that's a pretty obvious point - which you complicated by talking down the others as not creators, when they are actually some of the most creative midfielders of the last 30 years. And of course they could all be the ones to 'give it' in the Tim Vickery quote.
 
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Bertie Wooster said:
That was me.

And just to clarify, I used 4-2-3-1 (with a #10) as the example of ours because that's what we currently play with Fernandes always featuring there.

But of course that Tim Vickery quote also works for a 4-3-3 midfield that includes two number eights and a six - provided at least one of the #8's has high passing / creative levels as well. The saying is more about what qualities the midfield needs to cover, and of course the very best players can cover more than one of them on their own. In the Barcelona and Real Madrid examples you gave - Busquets and Casemiro are the ones to win it (but also good passers for DM's) and Xavi/Iniesta and Modric/Kroos both good enough to take care of the 'give it/go' parts as they were all world class all-round midfielders.

If your initial point was just the above, then fine. And, yes, it's obviously true that we could replace Fernandes with a player of the ability of some of the greatest creative CM's of recent times in Xavi, Iniesta, Modric or Kroos and we'd be even stronger.

However, that's a pretty obvious point - which you complicated by talking down the others as not creators, when they are actually some of the most creative midfielders of the last 30 years. And of course they could all be the ones to 'give it' in the Tim Vickery quote.
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Yeah, I think I just confused myself, to be honest :lol: I got hung up on the traditional #10 and that we didn't need a player of that ilk.

For the record, I didn't mean replacing Bruno with either of those four, because it goes without saying we'd be much better, but replace him with a midfielder that is more complete, better on the ball but still contributes offensively, ala Bruno Guimaraes. I think we'd create more as a team if we had more balance and control in the midfield, even if the one we replace Bruno with isn't as creative as him.
 
Grand Vizier said:
Then I don't think you fully followed the conversation. The poster I initially replied to mentioned that Tim Vickery regularly used to say that a midfield needs "one to win it, one to give it, one to go", describing a #6 (DM), #8 (B2B) and a #10 (creator) and made a point that a midfield trio of Ugarte (6), Mainoo (8) and Bruno (creator #10) could potentially be very good.

The point I was trying to make is that you don't need a #10 (creator) in your midfield, because all midfielders are able to create chances, particularly if your midfielders have excellent ball retention and are superb in possession (Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta / Casemiro, Kroos, Modric). So, the primary goal should not be to have a creator, but a good and balanced midfield that ensures you control the midfield. Perhaps I should have clarified that initially, but I didn't think it needed to seeing as the poster had already mentioned a number 10 as the creator.

So, instead of playing Bruno as the number 10, I think we'd improve overall and create more chances as a team if we had another box-to-box midfielder (#8) that is good on the ball and who contributes offensively. Who that is, I don't know, but that is my opinion.
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Ah, ok, so your point was we didn't need a "#10 creator" but bizarrely fudged the point up saying Xavi, Iniesta, Modric and Kroos weren't creators when the point was they weren't #10s.

Got it.
 
antohan said:
Ah, ok, so your point was we didn't need a "#10 creator" but bizarrely fudged the point up saying Xavi, Iniesta, Modric and Kroos weren't creators when the point was they weren't #10s.

Got it.
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Bingo! Those players were much more than creators, and controlled the match which was their primary objective rather than creating chances. I failed to get my point across, but yeah, guess you got it now.
 
Must start today. Today’s not a game for Eriksen. Spurs will press us and attack us lots.
 
antohan said:
I reckon you are selling him short there.

Yes, he was all that and a massive big game player (with a brace that got us ahead twice in that 4-3 derby :devil:).

Coming through the youth ranks he was "the next Beckham", which he obviously didn't turn out to be, but he was pretty damn good on the ball and can only be deemed a destroyer as a result of playing alongside Carrick/Scholes.

Would walk into our midfield, first name on the teamsheet actually.
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Oh I wasn't having a dig at Fletch at all. I was a massive fan and he was decent on the ball. His main strength was definitely his energy though.

In the right system I can definitely see Ugarte working. Just not convinced we're capable of bringing the best from him.
 
saik said:
He can be that 90%+ passing accuracy guy if he plays his normal game. Seems like he was instructed to/wanted to force it a bit more with his passing which made his accuracy go down.
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Which raises the question, that why did we buy a pure ball winner if your tactic is for your #6 to play probing passes?
 
Highfather_24 said:
Which raises the question, that why did we buy a pure ball winner if your tactic is for your #6 to play probing passes?
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I was not sure if that was down to instructions or if Ugarte was trying too hard to impress. We will get a clear idea in the next few games if he continues doing that.
 
Excited to see him against proper opposition, hopefully he allows us to play higher up and free Mainoo a little.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Which raises the question, that why did we buy a pure ball winner if your tactic is for your #6 to play probing passes?
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I don't think that's our tactic? Quite clearly not.

The post you replied to said instructed or felt the need. I reckon it's the latter, if anything.
 
The last thing we needed was yet another player lacking technically on the ball

Will be deadwood within 2 years
 
I don't get it, What do we expect from this guy?

He is not a pure DM, too instinctive a ball chaser, and very average on the ball, what value does he bring?

Look at him in comparison to Bentacur today, who was comfortable taking the ball in deep positions and finding outlets, we have a brought a guy in with limited technical ability who is a pure destroyer and offers little else. Why bring such a one dimensional player in?
 
Based Adnan said:
The last thing we needed was yet another player lacking technically on the ball

Will be deadwood within 2 years
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Another problem is he isn't very good at being a destroyer and that's supposedly his speciality.
 
Was obvious to me not what we needed but there we go.

More to top level football than winning tackles.
 
Bobski said:
I don't get it, What do we expect from this guy?

He is not a pure DM, too instinctive a ball chaser, and very average on the ball, what value does he bring?

Look at him in comparison to Bentacur today, who was comfortable taking the ball in deep positions and finding outlets, we have a brought a guy in with limited technical ability who is a pure destroyer and offers little else. Why bring such a one dimensional player in?
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Agents taking advantage of United again.
 
He'll be Antony's levels of failure. Looks poor as feck, we must have the worst scouts in Europe.
 
Waste of money this. Nobody can tell me that you can't buy player like him for a few million euros.
 
How the heck scouts recommended this calamity will work, no, thrive in EPL??
 
He's a truly tragic signing and it doesn't take months or years to point that out.

His base techincal level is so low - basic things like touch, body position when receiving the ball, scanning the field (how often has he got caught on the ball already due to a combo of this and terrible touch).

He's a wildly limited passer. Haven't seen a ball through the lines yet. The extent of his passing seems to be backwards, sideways and the occassional cross-field switch when he's not pressured and feeling spicy.

So we're left with a mid-table destroyer...oh but he also doesn't have top level athleticism. He's one paced with average strength, so he's not overly effective here either.

Worthless for a team with European aspirations.

I remember people on here wanted Edson Alvarez and were pointing out his eyepopping tackle/interception stats in the Eredivisie. West Ham ended up getting him and their forum is filled with people saying he's too limited, wildly lacking physically and essentially deadwood already.
 
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I know he needs time to get into rhythm so I hate to judge so soon but I can’t help but shake the feeling that we’ve signed another midfielder lacking in any presence. We have a bad habit of buying players that lack both physically and technically.
 
He was poor but he's new and needs to be given a chance. Under a proper footballing style of play I think he can be useful.
 
Worse than I expected so far tbh, and I was one of the posters who didn't want him. I fear that he will develop a reputation with the referees as well, which will result in a lot of fouls and cards.
 
All his critics in the transfer thread are right so far. Frightening how fans can see what our scouts can't over and over.
 
Was bad but as I have been shouting for a while now, no midfielder can do the job ETH is asking Mainoo and Ugarte to do. As long as Bruno freestyles, most midfielder will look out of place.

Its the suicidal tactics that needs to change or ETH need to go
 
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