Manchester United view sidelining Marcus Rashford as key to cultural reboot

Amorin's comments about Rashford are interesting. Saying that:

He has to want it
Attitude in training
Attitude on the pitch
How he eats
How he dresses
How he interacts with other players

The first 3 are obvious

The second 3 maybe a little esoteric
But it's not clear whether that all is directed at Rashford. It was phrased about everyone (hence the use of "the way you dress" and not the "he") in the context of Rashford AND Garnacho left out. We don't know what performance related criticism aplied to whom specifically from the two of them.
 
What would have looked like better value in 2023? £61mil over 5 years for Rashford coming off a 30 goal season, or Hojlund at £90mil over 5 years off the back of 10 goals in Serie A?

I think it is pretty lazy just to look at the salary. Club look at what a replacement would cost over the span of a contract - wages + transfer fee. Agent also know this and negotiate accordingly.

Its also pretty lazy just to look at his contract. If we had sold him after that season we would have got a very good fee for him and not been on the hook for £375k/week wages for 5 years. Hindsight is 20:20 but Rashford hasn't exactly been the model professional or consistent for a long time now. As others have pointed out his "great" season was stat padded and mainly bulked out by a rich vein of form that didn't last that long. It dried up with a chunk of the season to go.

So perhaps you could look at it as "who could you have brought in if you sold Rashford for £80m+ along with nearly £100m in wages saved by not giving him that contract".
 
But it's not clear whether that all is directed at Rashford. It was phrased about everyone (hence the use of "the way you dress" and not the "he") in the context of Rashford AND Garnacho left out. We don't know what performance related criticism aplied to whom specifically from the two of them.

Yeah, people are overanalysing what he has said and applying it specifically. Its just a manager who is saying "I look at everything about a player". Hes saying that he wants players who act in a certain way. There are stories of players showing up to training in the past with fancy, expensive cars that the senior players didn't think they had earned and getting abuse for it. Its akin to that. In of itself its not an issue but its all indicative of personality, priorities and behaviour.

I imagine with the likes of Rashford its death by a thousand cuts. Everything about him is giving off the wrong message.
 
Far too much is made of that one “30 goal” season. He scored 17 league goals that season, 11 of which came in just four weeks. 6 were in the Europa League against Sheriff and the boys, 6 in the Carabao Cup and 1 in the FA Cup. He had a great goalscoring spell mid season, but his overall game was poor and the goals dried up around March and that “30 goal” season also happened to coincide with his contract renewal.

So if we should be excluding goals against weaker Europa League teams, should we perhaps be doubling those against top tier opposition?

Like his 3 against Arsenal, 1 v Liverpool and 1 v City that seasons? All contributed to wins in those game.

How about the fact that if you take his goals away, we would have been 16 points worse off and not qualified for Europe, never mind the Champions League.

He won 3 x PL POTM awards that season. The only other player to have ever done that was Salah.

Yes, he hit a purple patch over December, Jan, Feb, but as did the whole United team, so maybe, just maybe, there is a correlation between the team playing well and Marcus playing well (and vice versa). That is usually the case when strikers are in form.

Has the team played as well as that since? No. We played poorly post the League Cup final and Rashford only scored 3 goals after that. Is that all his fault?
 
Problem with him and too many people is our standards have dropped so much.

I’ve always thought Rashford wasn’t that great, he just doesn’t have that much to his game.

Garnacho does fall into this category for me as well. He’s not bad, and he has moments of brilliance, but consistently, he just doesn’t have that many tools in his locker.

Amad already looks better than both. Can take players on, run at defenders, keep the ball in tight situations and has a good footballing brain.

We’ve just been a team of this for years now. Individual brilliance that saves the day, and then reward them with bigger contracts.

Garnacho is 21 and while i agree he is inconsistent and frustrating i belive he will come good. Rashford has peaked. He has been playing at the top level since 2016(?). That’s 8 years of PL football, England, poorly managed injuries. The Game took a massive roll on his body and mentality.
 
Rasmus cost us £64m + £8m in potential add ons. His wage over the length of his contract is £22m. So £86-94m, probably £100m + with signing bonus etc.

Marcus signed his new deal less than a month before we signed Hojlund. Marcus' contract is somewhere between £300-375k a week, so worth between £78-98m over 5 years. But like you say it is pretty lazy just to look at salary so what bonuses is Marcus getting on his deal? Well he will have a loyalty bonus worth in the 8 figures, paid in annual installments and in full if we force a sale. He'll have various other bonuses, image rights etc.

Very little monetary difference in the two.

Are both wages not likely to be less considering we are not in the CL?

Either way, my point stands. People are too quick to jump on what a player is paid, as opposed to looking at the total package of what it would cost to replace them. Coming off a 30 goal season, it would have been very tough to justify not resigning Rashford.

Plus, IIRC, Rashford only had a year left on his contract, so to let a player run down a year after a 30 goal season and allow him 6 months later to sign a pre contract with another club, would have been malpractice. And would we have been able to sell him in the summer of 2023? Most clubs that would have been interested would have encouraged him to run down the contract, just like Real did with Mbappe to get him on a free. Massively beneficial to the player as that transfer fee saved ends up in the player pocket.
 
It sounds like it's time for him to go, hopefully fairly amicably. I'm not sure the new system really has a role that will bring out the best in him anyway.
 
“Amorim’s system won’t suit him”

No system will suit him because they all require you to actually work hard and put a shift in.
 
“Amorim’s system won’t suit him”

No system will suit him because they all require you to actually work hard and put a shift in.
Think Rashfords sport now is walking football. No disrespect to the lads playing it, because they wouldn't want him either. He'd barely move there either.
 
Our signings have been shit for 10 years. Arguably, Bruno has been the only signing in the period post Fergie that fans can agree on being a real, long lasting, success.

Over this period, Rashford, like it or not, has been one of our best players. Who else has scored 138 goals 10 season (9 really as we are only halfway into this season and he made his debut in Feb 2016).

Far more talented players have been signed in this period for huge amounts of money (Sanchez, Di Maria, Lukaku, Sancho to name but a few).

My point is that he gets so much more stick than others who have cost the club tens of millions, had a ruge reputation and been utter flops.

Yes, he has been poor for a year and a half now, his attitude does seem off, he may not be suited to Amorims system, or a more modern style of football, but take what he has done over a 10 year span and he has been one of our brightest lights.

I think far too many people forget this. Beyond wages, he has cost us nothing when we have signed many duds for 60+ million.
He's been here for 10 seasons and has only had two great seasons. 19/20 and 22/23. For the wages he make we shouldn't compare him with our biggest flops to say "he's been one our brightest lights" we should compare him with EPL greatest earners and he's not been at that level besides those two seasons.



He's never been world-class but gets paid like it.

Rashford has that Martial, I don't give a feck, vibe. Awful body language and looks like a shadow of the player he was back in 22/23. He doesn't even have the pace anymore. Even when he scores his all around game is poor, but more importantly he looks totally uninterested, looks lazy, I can accept players that give their all and things just don't click it happens. Bruno have tons of games like that, but the effort is never missing.



That's the standard Amorim is setting and I 100% support him. Great example, let the whole squad know nothing but their 100% will be accepted. If that means sidelining Rashford, Garnacho or whoever then so
be it.
 
In general over the years we’ve had Vidic, Evra, Carrick, and more recently Maguire and Hojlund. There’s more especially from the past but yeah.
With Vidic and Evra I assume you're referring to the slow start to their United careers in their first half-season with the club - completely different circumstances to what's being discussed here.

No idea what you're getting at with Carrick though. :confused:
 
Far too much is made of that one “30 goal” season. He scored 17 league goals that season, 11 of which came in just four weeks. 6 were in the Europa League against Sheriff and the boys, 6 in the Carabao Cup and 1 in the FA Cup. He had a great goalscoring spell mid season, but his overall game was poor and the goals dried up around March and that “30 goal” season also happened to coincide with his contract renewal.

Yeah keep mentioning the same.

Plus he was average or awful for 18 months prior to that goalscoring spell. That run came out of nowhere and then abruptly ended.

I said on here at the time we shouldn't renew his contract until there was more concrete evidence he was back on track.
 
Are both wages not likely to be less considering we are not in the CL?

Either way, my point stands. People are too quick to jump on what a player is paid, as opposed to looking at the total package of what it would cost to replace them. Coming off a 30 goal season, it would have been very tough to justify not resigning Rashford.

Plus, IIRC, Rashford only had a year left on his contract, so to let a player run down a year after a 30 goal season and allow him 6 months later to sign a pre contract with another club, would have been malpractice. And would we have been able to sell him in the summer of 2023? Most clubs that would have been interested would have encouraged him to run down the contract, just like Real did with Mbappe to get him on a free. Massively beneficial to the player as that transfer fee saved ends up in the player pocket.

So in your post that I replied to did you take into account for Rasmus' wages would likely be less in his "total package" this season and probably next? We played in the Champions League in Rasmus' first season, he scored 5 goals.

Your point about him coming off a 30 goal season is irrelevant, it was an outlier season. At best he is more likely a low teens to low twenties player, the fact we paid him his obscene wages is on the idiots of the previous regime and the £200k he was on prior to his latest contract was also too much for his ability.

On your last point, if he was the player you believe then I'm sure someone would have been willing to pay a similar fee for him like Ivan Toney this summer.
 
Its sink or swim time, a manager that wont put up with below par performances and would rather have a (supposed) lesser-player that gives 100%. Cant fault that.
 
I think the only reason everyone seems to be treating this piece of news as true is because 90% of the caf probably agrees with it. But it's Jamie Jackson, don't forget it. If it was something that's not a popular opinion, he would be dismissed as a bullshitter.
 
With Vidic and Evra I assume you're referring to the slow start to their United careers in their first half-season with the club - completely different circumstances to what's being discussed here.

No idea what you're getting at with Carrick though. :confused:
I’m more referring to the nature of some fans to completely write of a player only for them to be proven wrong. Obviously all situations are different, Evra and Vidic were more consistent over larger periods of time, but I could have even used players like Park or Fletcher. Form fluctuates, written off, shows talent, redemption. There has to be a middle ground.

Carrick was also deemed not good enough at times, and similar to the above written off by some. I’m sure a quick check on his performances thread should highlight this if situation. Being able to play in certain formations, his style compared to Keane etc.
 
I’m more referring to the nature of some fans to completely write of a player only for them to be proven wrong. Obviously all situations are different, Evra and Vidic were more consistent over larger periods of time, but I could have even used players like Park or Fletcher. Form fluctuates, written off, shows talent, redemption. There has to be a middle ground.

Carrick was also deemed not good enough at times, and similar to the above written off by some. I’m sure a quick check on his performances thread should highlight this if situation. Being able to play in certain formations, his style compared to Keane etc.

Carrick did take some stick in his early days, but keep in mind who his predecessor was. In any event, his difficult early days were we short-lived and he went on to become a United legend.

It's pretty safe to say that Marcus Rashford will never become a United legend.
 
Carrick did take some stick in his early days, but keep in mind who his predecessor was. In any event, his difficult early days were we short-lived and he went on to become a United legend.

It's pretty safe to say that Marcus Rashford will never become a United legend.
I'll be honest that's not how I remember it but it is a while back, I feel like people came around to him after his career was over. Those years when we were smashing it (and he was a big part of that imo - his signing was a catalysts - but I digress) he got very few plaudits and a whole lot of criticism. I thought he as a truly great player personally!
 
He's been here for 10 seasons and has only had two great seasons. 19/20 and 22/23. For the wages he make we shouldn't compare him with our biggest flops to say "he's been one our brightest lights" we should compare him with EPL greatest earners and he's not been at that level besides those two seasons.

He's never been world-class but gets paid like it.

Rashford has that Martial, I don't give a feck, vibe. Awful body language and looks like a shadow of the player he was back in 22/23. He doesn't even have the pace anymore. Even when he scores his all around game is poor, but more importantly he looks totally uninterested, looks lazy, I can accept players that give their all and things just don't click it happens. Bruno have tons of games like that, but the effort is never missing.


That's the standard Amorim is setting and I 100% support him. Great example, let the whole squad know nothing but their 100% will be accepted. If that means sidelining Rashford, Garnacho or whoever then so
be it.

Which of the "EPL greatest earners" do you want to compare him with?
Because whichever player you name, then chances are they are playing in a high level, functioning team. Rashford has only ever had that for short periods at United.

Has there ever been a period in the last 9 years when United have been playing great and Rashford has not been a part of it? They go hand in hand.

Now, that is not to say that Rashford is up there with Salah, Haarland etc. But there is something to be said about the team and the forward hitting form at the same time. The big difference is that Liverpool and City have been consistently good for a long time, allowing those players to flourish.

You think if Liverpool had been changing managers every other season and been signing shit players then Mo Salah would be the star he is today? Likely not. Salah is a product of his environment and has been aided massively by having a top level manager in Klopp who built a great team for Salah to perform in.

Look at Haarland for example. City are playing like crap and all of a sudden Haarland cant score and looks very average.

Why would you not afford the same grace to Rashford?

And this is not me saying Rashford is a world beater, but when Ten Hag had United playing well in 22/23 (for around 4 months), what did we see? Rashford banging in a lot of goals.
 
I'll be honest that's not how I remember it but it is a while back, I feel like people came around to him after his career was over. Those years when we were smashing it (and he was a big part of that imo - his signing was a catalysts - but I digress) he got very few plaudits and a whole lot of criticism. I thought he as a truly great player personally!

The stick wasn't all that bad, but there was some peristent stick, or at least frustration. Carrick at times came off as tentative and of course not combative in the tackle, which upset some supporters. But for me his brilliance with the ball was there for all to see. My recollection is a bit hazy now, but my recollection is that Carrick went missing in the two CL finals against Barcelona. But that Barcelona side tended to do that to every opposing midfield.

Carrick is one of the greatest PL midfielders for me, but supporters of opposing clubs believe we're delusional in our praise for both Carrick and Scholes, even if they concede the greatness of Keane.
 
The stick wasn't all that bad, but there was some peristent stick, or at least frustration. Carrick at times came off as tentative and of course not combative in the tackle, which upset some supporters. But for me his brilliance with the ball was there for all to see. My recollection is a bit hazy now, but my recollection is that Carrick went missing in the two CL finals against Barcelona. But that Barcelona side tended to do that to every opposing midfield.

Carrick is one of the greatest PL midfielders for me, but supporters of opposing clubs believe we're delusional in our praise for both Carrick and Scholes, even if they concede the greatness of Keane.
Great player and hope he does well as a manager, imagine him in this side? We miss that type of player so much right now... As for not being rated by opps, they are both highly rated by their peers and thats a better guage of quality...

Agree with the rest of your post
 
So in your post that I replied to did you take into account for Rasmus' wages would likely be less in his "total package" this season and probably next? We played in the Champions League in Rasmus' first season, he scored 5 goals.

Of course. But a 20% cut in Rasmus wages would count for far less than a 20% cut in Rashfords.

The transfer fee stays the same which account for the majority of the Hojlund outlay.

Your point about him coming off a 30 goal season is irrelevant, it was an outlier season. At best he is more likely a low teens to low twenties player, the fact we paid him his obscene wages is on the idiots of the previous regime and the £200k he was on prior to his latest contract was also too much for his ability.

The fact he scored 30 goals is massively relevant.

That shows that he has the potential to be a 30 goal forward when he and the team is clicking.

Unfortunately though, the United team of 23/24 and 24/25 so far has been a shit show. So are you expecting him to bang in 30 under these conditions? Show me the forward that thrives in dysfunctional team?

On your last point, if he was the player you believe then I'm sure someone would have been willing to pay a similar fee for him like Ivan Toney this summer.

I am not saying he is world class or anything, im saying that when the conditions are right, he can score goals and perform. Is he the type of player to drag a team forward when they are underperforming, likely not. Even though he has scored many important goals for us in games where we under the cosh for most of the game.

My original point was that over a 10 year period, Rashford has done well for us. Far better that the vast majority of players we have signed, many of which came with bigger reputations and cost us way more that we were paying Rashford at the time.

Easy to play revisionist history, but we are talking about the decision made in in the summer of 2023 and there is not one club that would risk letting a 26 year old forward run down his contract.

Let's say he was sold (or allowed to run down his contract) after that 30 goals season and he goes to a team who are setup for success. Say Liverpool or Arsenal. What do United look like if he goes to a rival and bangs in 30 for them? We look like mugs who likely don't have a replacement that can replicate that. And as I illustrated with the Hojlund example, clubs are paying packages of 80 or 90mil + just for potential talent.
 
His effort just doesn't pass the eye test. Supporters know what we are looking at during a game. If he is pressing and running, we won't care if he misses his next dribble. Because he tries to win the ball back to redeem himself. But he doesn't. He just throws his hands up and looks like he is blaming luck that the defender guessed right and put in a tackle to stop his dribble. Fight for it man. That's how to win the supporters back.
 
So if we should be excluding goals against weaker Europa League teams, should we perhaps be doubling those against top tier opposition?

Like his 3 against Arsenal, 1 v Liverpool and 1 v City that seasons? All contributed to wins in those game.

How about the fact that if you take his goals away, we would have been 16 points worse off and not qualified for Europe, never mind the Champions League.

He won 3 x PL POTM awards that season. The only other player to have ever done that was Salah.

Yes, he hit a purple patch over December, Jan, Feb, but as did the whole United team, so maybe, just maybe, there is a correlation between the team playing well and Marcus playing well (and vice versa). That is usually the case when strikers are in form.

Has the team played as well as that since? No. We played poorly post the League Cup final and Rashford only scored 3 goals after that. Is that all his fault?
Rashford has lived on a reputation built from a handful of good performances. He has scored an average of only 8 league goals per season over the last nine years, which hardly justifies his 350k/week salary. His goals to games ratio is worse than that of Martial, who is frequently criticized for his lack of effort. Rashford standout 30 goal season is an anomaly, a glitch in the matrix. I am not sure why you brought up Salah in this conversation. Salah is a world class player who has scored 48 goals in a single season, led Liverpool to Premier League and Champions League trophies and scored and scored 35+ goals for three consecutive seasons. Even Jamie Vardy at 37 years old runs more and remains a better finisher than Rashford. Rashford has been built up to a level that doesn’t seem fair to him. He has never been a world class player and he never will be.
 
I'll be honest that's not how I remember it but it is a while back, I feel like people came around to him after his career was over. Those years when we were smashing it (and he was a big part of that imo - his signing was a catalysts - but I digress) he got very few plaudits and a whole lot of criticism. I thought he as a truly great player personally!

Yeah Carrick got shit from a segment of the fanbase throughout his career. The “only passes sideways and backwards” crew.
 
Carrick did take some stick in his early days, but keep in mind who his predecessor was. In any event, his difficult early days were we short-lived and he went on to become a United legend.

It's pretty safe to say that Marcus Rashford will never become a United legend.
It’s weird you say that as I was going to mention Keane as I do like context, but even then he wasn’t given that grace by some. Anyway he like, Vidic and Evra, went on to be more consistent but even then when he played next to Giggs he took time to adapt.

Ultimately I think you might be right on Rashford and his legend status although as an optimist I think this is his last chance to make that happen. If he knuckles down and adapts he could still have have 3 to 4 good years here. If not and he leaves then maybe it’ll be for the best for both parties. Time will tell.
 
Rashford has lived on a reputation built from a handful of good performances. He has scored an average of only 8 league goals per season over the last nine years, which hardly justifies his 350k/week salary. His goals to games ratio is worse than that of Martial, who is frequently criticized for his lack of effort. Rashford standout 30 goal season is an anomaly, a glitch in the matrix. I am not sure why you brought up Salah in this conversation. Salah is a world class player who has scored 48 goals in a single season, led Liverpool to Premier League and Champions League trophies and scored and scored 35+ goals for three consecutive seasons. Even Jamie Vardy at 37 years old runs more and remains a better finisher than Rashford. Rashford has been built up to a level that doesn’t seem fair to him. He has never been a world class player and he never will be.

It is closer to 10 as you are counting half seasons for his first and current seasons.

I didnt say he was a world class player.

I dont see how you dont understand the context here though. Salah is playing in a highly functioning football team and has done since he signed for Liverpool. He has been helped massively by that.

If Mo Salah had come to United there is a very strong chance that he would have flopped, as players who had achieved far more in their career than Mo Salah had a the time of singing for Liverpool, came to United and failed.

As Gary Neville says over and over, United has been a graveyard for players. So condier than when assessing Rashford. It is hardly the environment where player can thrive. If Di Maria, Sanchez, Pogba etc, who were meant to be world class cant do much at United, what are you expecting from Rashford?

Look back at the seasons where United have been ok and you will find that tallies with Rashford scoring more goals. It is not complicated.
 
It is only the 'dresses' one that is slightly odd.

Nutrition is super important, if they feel Rashford is not taking that as seriously as others then it's a red flag + interactions is obviously a huge part of being in a team, creating the right culture.

Re clothing/dresses - it's an interesting one, makes me think maybe he's trying to remove part of the circus by asking them to come to training in United gear i.e. you come to training to train, not for the fashion shoot of arriving in your car covered in brands. Or maybe Rashford turned up in that Burberry cape and Amorim genuinely told him it was unforgivably bad :lol:
My read on that is that it's more about how you dress when on duty. Training and the actual match should be less of an issue but maybe if you turn up looking scruffy in your suit or you don't put your tie on properly/at all that might be something he notices. I suspect it's those small details rather than anything to do with what anyone wears before training or in their own spare time.

I doubt it's anything to do with fashion other than training, matchday or official duties.
 
If he can score thirty goals in a season, the ability is clearly there, so it's all down to attitude and mentality.

Reminds me a bit of the situation with Bale at Madrid, just seemed to go off the idea of playing professional football properly and half arsed it (Bale was a much better footballer though).

If you're going to be earning the money elite players get, you need to play like it, never mind meeting the basic requirement of any pro which is working hard. He's clearly not got the mental strength for that challenge so definitely time to go.
 
So that academy player record is going to be gone in the next year if Garnacho and Mainoo are both out then right? Or do they just stick some reserve on the bench in that case.

Why would we sell Mainoo and Garnacho?
 
Amorin's comments about Rashford are interesting. Saying that:

He has to want it
Attitude in training
Attitude on the pitch
How he eats
How he dresses
How he interacts with other players
Parklife.
 
Why would we sell Mainoo and Garnacho?

To balance the books.

Who else do we have than can generate a profit for us?
Which player could we sell today for decent money, that we wouldn't be taking a loss on? Maybe Mazraoui. And where does that get us?

The benefit of these player sales is that the money goes onto the balance sheet for this year. You can bring in another player and his costs are amortized over the length of his contract.
 
Where is this idea coming from that we are going to sell Mainoo and Garnacho?

Mainoo literally played in most of the game only 2 days ago and even if you believe the article has genuine sources it specifically states Garnacho is still in the club's plans.

Selling talented young players who it's too early to know if they'll be good players or world beaters would be an extraordinarily stupid thing to do
 
This, the only players we have right now who could generate funds for a big reboot are Mainoo and Garnacho.

I wouldnt want to sell Mainoo, but Garnacho is already heading down the Rashford path of poor performances, lazy as feck without the ball and being toxic off the pitch. Selling him could easily fund 2-3 big signings in one window, with how the books work.

My hope is that Garnacho and Rashford have taken their dropping to heart and we see an improvement, even if i doubt they are good fits for Amorims system.

With PSR, clubs have to sell academy player to be able to improve their squad. Chelsea and City have both done it in recent years.

I too wouldn't want to sell Mainoo, but we may have to because of some of the awful signings we have made in recent years and the need to rebuild.
 
But how would you dress inappropriately for training? They all wear club gear on the grass and we've seen him in videos, it's also not like they can forget their boots/gear as it's all at the training ground already.
No clue - Sagging one's shorts low like a gangster? Even though I can't imagine even the most immature player doing that! :lol:

I wonder if it's attitude with which you kit up when called upon. Whether there's any urgency or something like that
 
Where is this idea coming from that we are going to sell Mainoo and Garnacho?

Mainoo literally played in most of the game only 2 days ago and even if you believe the article has genuine sources it specifically states Garnacho is still in the club's plans.

Selling talented young players who it's too early to know if they'll be good players or world beaters would be an extraordinarily stupid thing to do
People have lost the plot
 
there are about 50 emotional posts in a row here that could have been written by a bot saying 'get rashford out of my club ahhhhhh'. there is no discussion just posters that have got on this latest bandwagon venting

a few years ago it was maguire, de gea etc etc

the media are all over it and have convinced united fans with their efforts that the on field performances will improve if we get rid of rashford, instead of they will simply improve when the coaching improves, which hopefully will happen. that is what i call a scapegoat.

Hillarious you think the criticism of Rashford and the idea of getting rid is just a recent bandwagon thing. He’s been widely criticised on here for years, the only difference now is we (finally) have a manager who seemingly also agrees and a media who is now picking it up as a result.