Manchester United view sidelining Marcus Rashford as key to cultural reboot

Gator Nate said:
I think you pretty well understand why he has to go (and it's been more than a year and a half - he had a couple of bright spots and that's it, only one really great season), but you're not getting past sentimentality. That's what brought Ronaldo back and sank Ole. That's why way too many players have stayed way too long. And over that 10 year span of which you speak, we have struggled. We have to look at the now, and the recent past, and make decisions with our brains, not our hearts. Otherwise, we'll have another 10 years like the last.
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I have no objection about him being sold. It doesn't seem he is a good fit for the system and, as you say, has been poor for a while.

Point is, all things considered, he has had a successful 10 years at United, even though it has been up and down for him. We have bought players with much more talent, with bigger reputations and for huge amounts that achieved far less than Rashford has. So it they all failed, why should we expect Rashford to be this consistent performer year on year?

So, i think we should remember that, because although the criticism on recent form is justified, he had achieved more than just about everyone one of our big money signings have over the last decade as well as being the biggest hit from out academy in the last 10 years.
 
Amorin's comments about Rashford are interesting. Saying that:

He has to want it
Attitude in training
Attitude on the pitch
How he eats
How he dresses
How he interacts with other players

The first 3 are obvious

The second 3 maybe a little esoteric
 
Hughes35 said:
Give me a Park Ji Sung, Tevez or a Fletcher over Rashford any day of the week. Players with work rate who will run through walls for you are worth 10 of a Rashford.
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Not Tevez.

He's a disloyal clown whose 'RIP Fergie' nonsense was unacceptable. Hung about a worse crowd, too.

I get your point about his work-rate, though.
 
Why has the scapegoating stepped up to new levels under amorim?

The club has been so toxic since INEOS and it is getting worse and worse. At least with ETH it was professional, no leaks no press brief drama. He wasn't a good enough manager but could we not keep hold of that element going forwards?
 
Port Vale Devil said:
£365k a week for a player who has a decent season every three years is madness.

Cannot see many takers unless Utd pay a share of his wages
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Got his contract at the right time - after a 30 goal season. At the time, what would it have cost us to find a player with the potential to score 30 a season?

I think we know that because Hojlund came in on a package that will cost the club £90mil over 5 years.
Rashford will take £61mil over the same period.

Both signed their contracts that same summer.

What would have looked like better value in 2023? £61mil over 5 years for Rashford coming off a 30 goal season, or Hojlund at £90mil over 5 years off the back of 10 goals in Serie A?

I think it is pretty lazy just to look at the salary. Club look at what a replacement would cost over the span of a contract - wages + transfer fee. Agent also know this and negotiate accordingly.
 
dubplate warrior said:
Jamie Jackson doesn't actually have any sources at United. He's just made an article out of the obvious.
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Agree. I doubt this is a well sourced article.

I think the club would like to sell him, but im sure they and Amorim are realistic about the situation. Only the elite clubs plus Saudi can afford his salary. So unless he swallows his pride and takes a salary cut to go to a smaller club, then the only out is hoping Saudi come in for him.

In all likelihood, he stays and Amorim works with to get the best out of him. I hope this is a wake up call for him and Garnacho.

Unlike Sancho when something similar happened post Arsenal under Ten Hag, at least Rashford seems invested in United after posting on social media, praising his teammates for the win.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Why has the scapegoating stepped up to new levels under amorim?

The club has been so toxic since INEOS and it is getting worse and worse. At least with ETH it was professional, no leaks no press brief drama. He wasn't a good enough manager but could we not keep hold of that element going forwards?
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This is the most optimistic I've ever felt about the club since Fergie left to be honest.

Leaks have been an issue at United for years now. Whose being scapegoated?
 
Crostien said:
Not Tevez.

He's a disloyal clown whose 'RIP Fergie' nonsense was unacceptable. Hung about a worse crowd, too.

I get your point about his work-rate, though.
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Oh, he left in a shocking manner. I was just making the point about work rate on the pitch :)
 
gaffs said:
Got his contract at the right time - after a 30 goal season. At the time, what would it have cost us to find a player with the potential to score 30 a season?

I think we know that because Hojlund came in on a package that will cost the club £90mil over 5 years.
Rashford will take £61mil over the same period.

Both signed their contracts that same summer.

What would have looked like better value in 2023? £61mil over 5 years for Rashford coming off a 30 goal season, or Hojlund at £90mil over 5 years off the back of 10 goals in Serie A?

I think it is pretty lazy just to look at the salary. Club look at what a replacement would cost over the span of a contract - wages + transfer fee. Agent also know this and negotiate accordingly.
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Far too much is made of that one “30 goal” season. He scored 17 league goals that season, 11 of which came in just four weeks. 6 were in the Europa League against Sheriff and the boys, 6 in the Carabao Cup and 1 in the FA Cup. He had a great goalscoring spell mid season, but his overall game was poor and the goals dried up around March and that “30 goal” season also happened to coincide with his contract renewal.
 
dubplate warrior said:
This is the most optimistic I've ever felt about the club since Fergie left to be honest.

Leaks have been an issue at United for years now. Whose being scapegoated?
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there are about 50 emotional posts in a row here that could have been written by a bot saying 'get rashford out of my club ahhhhhh'. there is no discussion just posters that have got on this latest bandwagon venting

a few years ago it was maguire, de gea etc etc

the media are all over it and have convinced united fans with their efforts that the on field performances will improve if we get rid of rashford, instead of they will simply improve when the coaching improves, which hopefully will happen. that is what i call a scapegoat.
 
So if I understand the timeline correctly Amorim gave the line up to the players on Saturday which is how it leaked that night, Sunday morning United players are in training where both Rashford and Garnacho who are both aware they've been dropped from the team put in a training performance/attitude display so bad that Amorim decides to drop them from the squad entirely.

If this is the case then both need to go. It's one thing for a high performing player to be frustrated at not playing and feeling they've been treated unfairly and another thing entirely for someone whose been total garbage for months to then throw their toys out of the pram and strop.

Both are delusional about their ability and should be moved on.
 
Nobody can defend his form wholeheartedly however if this is true then he has cause for grievance for me. His still cast as part of the ‘attitude’ squad where their personal life is judged alongside their performances on the pitch. If this same criteria was applied to all underperforming players, especially by the media, then that’s fine. However for me I see clear differences.

I’m hoping that he takes this period out of the team as a chance to reset and come back to what some know he is capable of. People writing him off completely may think back to other players that have come back to prove their worth to the team.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
Nobody can defend his form wholeheartedly however if this is true then he has cause for grievance for me. His still cast as part of the ‘attitude’ squad where their personal life is judged alongside their performances on the pitch. If this same criteria was applied to all underperforming players, especially by the media, then that’s fine. However for me I see clear differences.

I’m hoping that he takes this period out of the team as a chance to reset and come back to what some know he is capable of. People writing him off completely may think back to other players that have come back to prove their worth to the team.
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Who?
 
FlawlessVictory88 said:
So if I understand the timeline correctly Amorim gave the line up to the players on Saturday which is how it leaked that night, Sunday morning United players are in training where both Rashford and Garnacho who are both aware they've been dropped from the team put in a training performance/attitude display so bad that Amorim decides to drop them from the squad entirely.

If this is the case then both need to go. It's one thing for a high performing player to be frustrated at not playing and feeling they've been treated unfairly and another thing entirely for someone whose been total garbage for months to then throw their toys out of the pram and strop.

Both are delusional about their ability and should be moved on.
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I think the squad was announced to them before. Ruben's comments were "Today, they train really hard, so it’s a good thing".
 
gaffs said:
Got his contract at the right time - after a 30 goal season. At the time, what would it have cost us to find a player with the potential to score 30 a season?

I think we know that because Hojlund came in on a package that will cost the club £90mil over 5 years.
Rashford will take £61mil over the same period.

Both signed their contracts that same summer.

What would have looked like better value in 2023? £61mil over 5 years for Rashford coming off a 30 goal season, or Hojlund at £90mil over 5 years off the back of 10 goals in Serie A?

I think it is pretty lazy just to look at the salary. Club look at what a replacement would cost over the span of a contract - wages + transfer fee. Agent also know this and negotiate accordingly.
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Rasmus cost us £64m + £8m in potential add ons. His wage over the length of his contract is £22m. So £86-94m, probably £100m + with signing bonus etc.

Marcus signed his new deal less than a month before we signed Hojlund. Marcus' contract is somewhere between £300-375k a week, so worth between £78-98m over 5 years. But like you say it is pretty lazy just to look at salary so what bonuses is Marcus getting on his deal? Well he will have a loyalty bonus worth in the 8 figures, paid in annual installments and in full if we force a sale. He'll have various other bonuses, image rights etc.

Very little monetary difference in the two.
 
afrocentricity said:
So I refer you back to my last post then, who are you to decide how and why someone should feel sorry for anyone?
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I’m not telling anyone how or why to feel sorry for him. Throw a fecking pity party, I couldn’t care less. I’m just pointing out that it’s misleading to imply there are external factors, beyond his control, that are the main reason he ended up underachieving.
 
As has been pointed out by plenty of other posters on here, as much as I do feel sympathy for him in some ways he also hasn't helped himself with his blatant lack of effort on the pitch for the majority of the last 3 or 4 years.

I mean his last performance in the Europa League he might as well have just sat down on the pitch and gone to sleep. You're always going to lose support from fans when you regularly amble around the pitch, unless you're prime Messi or Ronaldo it's not going to be acceptable.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
there are about 50 emotional posts in a row here that could have been written by a bot saying 'get rashford out of my club ahhhhhh'. there is no discussion just posters that have got on this latest bandwagon venting

a few years ago it was maguire, de gea etc etc

the media are all over it and have convinced united fans with their efforts that the on field performances will improve if we get rid of rashford, instead of they will simply improve when the coaching improves, which hopefully will happen. that is what i call a scapegoat.
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Rashford has been crap for a long time now and questions have been there about his attitude under different managers.

I don't think there's much need for discussion about his future, it's best for everyone for him to go.

I'm sad about how it's turnt out, I really wanted him to spent the rest of his career here.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That post was a response to a couple of others which were implying that Rashford’s poor performances were for reasons outside his control (e.g. playing under managers below the top tier, at a club in upper mid table) Which rings hollow when you consider the likes of Harry Kane, Steven Gerrard or Alan Shearer. And if he’s not as talented as those guys that’s ok but then he has to work his arse off to contribute in other ways. Which he didn’t do.
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Exactly. People pitying him as if he is Shaw or Mount who have been riddled by injuries. No, Rashford has enough fitness to at least put in the work which he didnt and he gets paid very well to at least look bothered which he didnt.
 
Daengophile said:
Amorin's comments about Rashford are interesting. Saying that:

He has to want it
Attitude in training
Attitude on the pitch
How he eats
How he dresses
How he interacts with other players

The first 3 are obvious

The second 3 maybe a little esoteric
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It is only the 'dresses' one that is slightly odd.

Nutrition is super important, if they feel Rashford is not taking that as seriously as others then it's a red flag + interactions is obviously a huge part of being in a team, creating the right culture.

Re clothing/dresses - it's an interesting one, makes me think maybe he's trying to remove part of the circus by asking them to come to training in United gear i.e. you come to training to train, not for the fashion shoot of arriving in your car covered in brands. Or maybe Rashford turned up in that Burberry cape and Amorim genuinely told him it was unforgivably bad :lol:
 
tomaldinho1 said:
It is only the 'dresses' one that is slightly odd.

Nutrition is super important, if they feel Rashford is not taking that as seriously as others then it's a red flag + interactions is obviously a huge part of being in a team, creating the right culture.

Re clothing/dresses - it's an interesting one, makes me think maybe he's trying to remove part of the circus by asking them to come to training in United gear i.e. you come to training to train, not for the fashion shoot of arriving in your car covered in brands. Or maybe Rashford turned up in that Burberry cape and Amorim genuinely told him it was unforgivably bad :lol:
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Not really odd if what he means is how he's dressed to work (training sessions). I am sure even the staffs are expected to at least dressed properly coming to the office. It shows not only respect but maturity. Its only out of context if Amorim cricitized how he dresses outside of work. Which I am sure he didnt because he followed it up with "these are the things I noticed". Might be a little language barrier there. But yeah its good to have standards. The club wouldnt be here if Sir Alex was tolerating nonsense behaviours in his dressing room. He even told some players to cut their hair.
 
He has been woeful in his overall performances for a long time now even though he is amongst the most proven goalscorers we have. If his training effort is also bad, then it must affect team morale. Then the manager would be right to draw that line for him.

Having said that, we are not exactly brimming with attacking options (one derby win aside) and would have to replace him with a proven option, not another inconsistent young prospect as we have multiple of those.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
It is only the 'dresses' one that is slightly odd.

Nutrition is super important, if they feel Rashford is not taking that as seriously as others then it's a red flag + interactions is obviously a huge part of being in a team, creating the right culture.

Re clothing/dresses - it's an interesting one, makes me think maybe he's trying to remove part of the circus by asking them to come to training in United gear i.e. you come to training to train, not for the fashion shoot of arriving in your car covered in brands. Or maybe Rashford turned up in that Burberry cape and Amorim genuinely told him it was unforgivably bad :lol:
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It’s hard to work out what he means by that one alright. And there’s a risk it comes across as a bit Sean Dyche and his campaign against gloves and hats. I wonder if it’s something as simple as how they wear their gear at training? Literally expecting them to pull their socks up?!
 
tenpoless said:
Not really odd if what he means is how he's dressed to work (training sessions). I am sure even the staffs are expected to at least dressed properly coming to the office. It shows not only respect but maturity. Its only out of context if Amorim cricitized how he dresses outside of work. Which I am sure he didnt because he followed it up with "these are the things I noticed". Might be a little language barrier there. But yeah its good to have standards. The club wouldnt be here if Sir Alex was tolerating nonsense behaviours in his dressing room. He even told some players to cut their hair.
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But how would you dress inappropriately for training? They all wear club gear on the grass and we've seen him in videos, it's also not like they can forget their boots/gear as it's all at the training ground already.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
But how would you dress inappropriately for training? They all wear club gear on the grass and we've seen him in videos, it's also not like they can forget their boots/gear as it's all at the training ground already.
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I dont know, its just my interpretation of what the manager said. Maybe when he arrived he might have worn something else before switching to the training gear. Because it doesnt really make sense if Amorim noticed what he wears outside/off work... he cant be keeping an eye on him all the time.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s hard to work out what he means by that one alright. And there’s a risk it comes across as a bit Sean Dyche and his campaign against gloves and hats. I wonder if it’s something as simple as how they wear their gear at training? Literally expecting them to pull their socks up?!
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I think he clarified this - it was some generous journalistic license being taken - he only banned things you can't wear on game day (snoods and hats), but gloves were allowed.
 
Personally I don't believe Rashford is part of the cultural reboot. It's his behavior, not the person. I'm sure everyone at the club would rather him back to his best than making a bad example out of him. Next game we will see his response.
 
tenpoless said:
Personally I don't believe Rashford is part of the cultural reboot. It's his behavior, not the person. I'm sure everyone at the club would rather him back to his best than making a bad example out of him. Next game we will see his response.
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The only thing is this isn't the first "kick up the arse" he's had. He's had a fair few in the last 18 months and still nothing seems to get through to him.

I suppose this one does seem more serious so we'll have to see. I'm not optimistic he'll change his ways now though. After he got pissed in Belfast and was dropped for a game he managed about 1 or 2 games of putting effort in on his return before he gave up again and went back to walking around the pitch.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
The only thing is this isn't the first "kick up the arse" he's had. He's had a fair few in the last 18 months and still nothing seems to get through to him.

I suppose this one does seem more serious so we'll have to see. I'm not optimistic he'll change his ways now though. After he got pissed in Belfast and was dropped for a game he managed about 1 or 2 games of putting effort in on his return before he gave up again and went back to walking around the pitch.
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I think before this his 'punishment' has been rather tame. More of administrative thing than sending a message out to him. This time, he was dropped before a derby, not even in the squad but the team won the game regardless, and the manager has specifically talked about him. So this time it seems like a final warning. If he's still unbothered then there's only one outcome.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Why has the scapegoating stepped up to new levels under amorim?

The club has been so toxic since INEOS and it is getting worse and worse. At least with ETH it was professional, no leaks no press brief drama. He wasn't a good enough manager but could we not keep hold of that element going forwards?
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Not sure why you feel this way but I don’t agree at all. It seems for once that the new structure people wanted for years and wanted to see Ten Hag under are actually doing something meaningful in regards to one voice from the top down to the manager.

Reports today suggest Wilcox was also involved in the decision to drop Rashford and Garnacho, instead of the usual thing everyone on here complains about where the new incoming manager gives everyone a clean slate until they stop trying for him.

There’s nowhere to hide anymore, players aren’t going to survive managerial sackings. Call that toxic if you want, I call it great news and accountability from all involved. In previous years Rashford would have played just well enough for the new manager to rely on him and the cycle repeats again, that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

And seriously, who gives a shit about ‘leaks’? So what, someone told someone about the lineup? Hardly helped City did it? Did anyone stop to think that Rashford driving home from training, pulling into his drive and getting out of his car an hour before kick off could have been the leak? It doesn’t always have to be toxic, if he stops for a pint of milk 20 minutes before kickoff it’s pretty obvious he isn’t in the squad.
 
tenpoless said:
I dont know, its just my interpretation of what the manager said. Maybe when he arrived he might have worn something else before switching to the training gear. Because it doesnt really make sense if Amorim noticed what he wears outside/off work... he cant be keeping an eye on him all the time.
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Yeah it's an odd one and I'd think Ruben would make a lot of enemies if he was trying to control what they wore in general outside of work (it definitely won't be that). Unless of course he wore something offensive/political and the club has notified Amorim, but we'd have seen that in the media if it was the case.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s hard to work out what he means by that one alright. And there’s a risk it comes across as a bit Sean Dyche and his campaign against gloves and hats. I wonder if it’s something as simple as how they wear their gear at training? Literally expecting them to pull their socks up?!
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He should ban that cutting holes in socks lark for a start.
 
tenpoless said:
I think before this his 'punishment' has been rather tame. More of administrative thing than sending a message out to him. This time, he was dropped before a derby, not even in the squad but the team won the game regardless, and the manager has specifically talked about him. So this time it seems like a final warning. If he's still unbothered then there's only one outcome.
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Yeah his "punishments" here have been tame but I did think being dropped for England and not being at the Euros would have maybe convinced him things needed to change. During a recent international break there were tons of withdrawals in the attacking position and Rashford still wasn't considered to play. I hoped that might spark something in him but nah.

Like you said, this is probably his very last chance now.
 
Great players will eventually reach a 'plateau' or a steady state in terms of consistent performance, maintain it for a while, then, usually age or injuries take over.

Rashford has (except for one season) never really hit the plateau or achieved steady-state consistency in performance.

Garnacho as 'hit a brick wall' in terms of his game consistency,

Neither seem able to learn from their experiences, maybe Amorin can change that situation, if not both are destined to leave.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
It is only the 'dresses' one that is slightly odd.

Nutrition is super important, if they feel Rashford is not taking that as seriously as others then it's a red flag + interactions is obviously a huge part of being in a team, creating the right culture.

Re clothing/dresses - it's an interesting one, makes me think maybe he's trying to remove part of the circus by asking them to come to training in United gear i.e. you come to training to train, not for the fashion shoot of arriving in your car covered in brands. Or maybe Rashford turned up in that Burberry cape and Amorim genuinely told him it was unforgivably bad :lol:
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Was there any truth in the suggestion that Rashford had been on the tiles in Belfast - or just journalistic BS?
 
red.knight said:
Far too much is made of that one “30 goal” season. He scored 17 league goals that season, 11 of which came in just four weeks. 6 were in the Europa League against Sheriff and the boys, 6 in the Carabao Cup and 1 in the FA Cup. He had a great goalscoring spell mid season, but his overall game was poor and the goals dried up around March and that “30 goal” season also happened to coincide with his contract renewal.
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Well said.
 
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