Manchester Arena Bombing 22.05.17

Pablo76 said:
Just watching sky news and they reeled off name after name after name of people still unaccounted for, still missing in the aftermath of this tragedy.

Where are they? :(
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The appeal from one of the girl's mothers earlier had me close to tears, in fact in truth I had tears in my eyes.

I've got daughters and the worry she must be going through can't surely be known unless you were in that situation.

Unfortunately, I think we all know how the story is sadly likely to end, I just pray to god she's away with a boyfriend or at a friends house.
 
jojojo said:
With the IRA, the Catholic v Protestant presentation was always around. Stronger than the unionist v republican labels most of the time. So perhaps not "Christian terrorists", but that was because people felt the need to distinguish between the strands.
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Thomas Mair has never, as far as I am aware, been referred to as a christian terrorist.

Its very rare they even call him a terrorist.
 
I read the entire volume 5 of Sahih Al Bukhari a couple of days ago. I'd rather not comment on it because it would be so politically incorrect. At the same time I'd probably be advised by a Muslim apologist that I've misunderstood everything I've read.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
Thomas Mair has never, as far as I am aware, been referred to as a christian terrorist.

Its very rare they even call him a terrorist.
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He was a far right terrorist, religion didn't play any real role as far as I'm aware. He was obsessed with the Nazis and was an extreme nationalist.
 
Pablo76 said:
Just watching sky news and they reeled off name after name after name of people still unaccounted for, still missing in the aftermath of this tragedy.

Where are they? :(
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My wife said the same, but with the nature of the bomb the ones stood closest would not have stood a chance thy will be in many bits (sorry) and it will take time to identify them.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
I'd rather be in our shoes than theirs personally.
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That is always the case until it happens to your family (god forbid it ever does and it most likely will not). Then it would feel like they've won and there is nothing you can do about it. It's really got me stewing the way they have been getting away with this for so long and last night boiled my piss. I'm sick of this country doing feck all about this, instead too concerned about offending people. If I'm wrong and we are making great strides too stop this then tell me, but this has been going on for decades now.
 
pocco said:
That is always the case until it happens to your family (god forbid it ever does and it most likely will not). Then it would feel like they've won and there is nothing you can do about it. It's really got me stewing the way they have been getting away with this for so long and last night boiled my piss. I'm sick of this country doing feck all about this, instead too concerned about offending people. If I'm wrong and we are making great strides too stop this then tell me, but this has been going on for decades now.
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Well to be fair our government has got away with stealing their oil, killing men women and children and controlling their government for decades so I'd say we're on the easier side.
 
mancan92 said:
Well to be fair our government has got away with stealing their oil, killing men women and children and controlling their government for decades so I'd say we're on the easier side.
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If that were ever proven to be true, then we're fecked. What you're saying is basically that our government is willing to sacrifice our lives, all those kids that died yesterday, for money. If it was true then I'm just wasting my time talking about it because this isn't ever going away.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I read the entire volume 5 of Sahih Al Bukhari a couple of days ago. I'd rather not comment on it because it would be so politically incorrect. At the same time I'd probably be advised by a Muslim apologist that I've misunderstood everything I've read.
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I'm not a Muslim apologist, I'm just a Muslim. If what you read is as bad as you are trying not to say then should there not be 100,000s of people doing this crazy shit in this country alone and millions around the world in every country? Sahih Bukhari is considered important to almost 3/4 of a billion people on earth.

The answer is no because we have scholars that need to use all texts at their disposal to provide meaningful guidance. The extreme (i.e. incorrect) ones are hounded out and thus probably feel the need to have their revenge out of petulance, ego and sin. These are the devil's best agents on earth.
 
JPRouve said:
Remember that the police will arrest everyone close to the terrorist just to get more information, those people aren't necessarily linked to the bombing.
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That is true, and it was meant to be implied in my original post, but I see that I could have emphasized it better.
 
pocco said:
If that were ever proven to be true, then we're fecked. What you're saying is basically that our government is willing to sacrifice our lives, all those kids that died yesterday, for money. If it was true then I'm just wasting my time talking about it because this isn't ever going away.
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Ya pretty much. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that the people who really run countries like the UK/US etc actually care about us peasants.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
My wife said the same, but with the nature of the bomb the ones stood closest would not have stood a chance thy will be in many bits (sorry) and it will take time to identify them.
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Seems that you're right, especially going by the eyewitness account above.

Where else can these people be.

The death toll at the end of this is going to be 30-40 in this case?
 
Mihajlovic said:
I read the entire volume 5 of Sahih Al Bukhari a couple of days ago. I'd rather not comment on it because it would be so politically incorrect. At the same time I'd probably be advised by a Muslim apologist that I've misunderstood everything I've read.
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You do know that all the hadiths even in sahih bukhari are not authentic despite it itself being the most authentic compilation ?
 
This incident is sickening. Just brings back memories of the poor schoolkids in Peshawar that were shot one by one by similar hellbound ****s.

Just heard there are more kids in hospital with life threatening injuries. :(
 
lem8sh said:
Ya pretty much. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that the people who really run countries like the UK/US etc actually care about us peasants.
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That's the mistake a lot of people make in a lot of countries worldwide, every single day.
Everyone looks out for their own. The wealthy look out for the wealthy and for their own wealth - and the rulers of every country around the world don't get to where they are by being modest, working-class, normal people. They are wealthy. It's all they care about.
 
Dumbstar said:
I'm not a Muslim apologist, I'm just a Muslim. If what you read is as bad as you are trying not to say then should there not be 100,000s of people doing this crazy shit in this country alone and millions around the world in every country? Sahih Bukhari is considered important to almost 3/4 of a billion people on earth.

The answer is no because we have scholars that need to use all texts at their disposal to provide meaningful guidance. The extreme (i.e. incorrect) ones are hounded out and thus probably feel the need to have their revenge out of petulance, ego and sin. These are the devil's best agents on earth.
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I've read it for myself. I've read the Quran and the Hadiths, about the life and character and actions of Mohammed. And I've come to the conclusion that this is not someone worth following. I'm educated enough to understand the importance of historical and cultural context, however, this still does not change my opinion on Mohammed and the religion itself.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I've read it for myself. I've read the Quran and the Hadiths, about the life and character and actions of Mohammed. And I've come to the conclusion that this is not someone worth following. I'm educated enough to understand the importance of historical and cultural context, however, this still does not change my opinion on Mohammed and the religion itself.
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And that's a 100% fine. In fact I respect you for it as I have never spent so much time researching anything but I wish I did/could
 
VidaRed said:
You do know that all the hadiths even in sahih bukhari are not authentic despite it itself being the most authentic compilation ?
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I don't know if there is such thing as authentic at all in this world. I'm just telling you about my impression from everything that I've read either online or in library. I know it's probably not the nicest thing to hear, and i know how I'd feel if one was to criticise my beliefs, but there's no redeeming quality in what I've read so far at all. Especially if I contrast Mohamed's life and actions against those of Christ.
 
Dumbstar said:
And that's a 100% fine. In fact I respect you for it as I have never spent so much time researching anything but I wish I did/could
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It's not over, next year is your year.;)
 
if you have to delete it admin thats fine.

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This may sound stupid or too simple but.

I read reports and stories from Belgium, Germany France, UK, Netherlands about imams having inflammatory sermons in mosques and religious schools being funded by Saudi Arabia which teach bout radical islam and call for revenge on the West and that sort of stuff.

After every attack stories like that pop out. So surely police in those countries already know about those places and about certain indviduals who teach young people about that stuff and encourage them to go on the attacks like last night's. Is the work about that lacking, are those imams being interrogated, jailed, punished? Are those mosques and schools being closed? Or they pop out in such numbers they can't be all closed? I'm just wondering does the countries' police and secret service doing enough to solve or try to solve the root of the problems.
Of course other problems are education or the lack of it. Poverty and lack of life chances are the breeding space for this kind of crazy ideas and young brains are easily poisoned. Everybody must do their part so at least someof the attacks or most of it are prevented.

Of course one of the solutions, the big one, would be to West to cut all the ties with Saudi Arabia and proclaim them enemy number one but that won't happen ever...
 
Dumbstar said:
And that's a 100% fine. In fact I respect you for it as I have never spent so much time researching anything but I wish I did/could
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I wrestled with it! I've read it for hours and hours, and I could find no justification for his violent and deceitful actions. No matter what circumstantial aspects you'd want to consider. And I thought about what impact this would have upon readers. The natural instinct would be to justify it, somehow, as much as my natural instinct would be to justify and explain problematic biblical passages. But the one thing that made all the difference tonne was the constant comparison with Christ as described in the NT. And there's no doubt in my mind that the only model of life worth following is the one of Christ and not Mohammed. At some point when I have more time I've decided to check in with some Muslims and discuss this properly.
 
Alabaster Codify7 said:
That's the mistake a lot of people make in a lot of countries worldwide, every single day.
Everyone looks out for their own. The wealthy look out for the wealthy and for their own wealth - and the rulers of every country around the world don't get to where they are by being modest, working-class, normal people. They are wealthy. It's all they care about.
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Indeed, take murdoch. He uses his propoganda sheets both sides of the atlantic to push for the removal of assad.

Coincidentally, as co-owner of genie energy, who signed an agreement with israel to drill for oil in the golan heights, he also stands to make billions from having a tame regime in Syria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_Energy
 
montpelier said:
that doesn't make it go away though - in fact it probably helps to ensure that it won't

the 7/7 berks were from Leeds & this one is from the M14 postcode isn't he?

are we turning parts of UK cities into something like East Berlin to help with this?
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Mockney said:
fecking hell. Welcome to 1984.
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Don't want the intent of my original message to get lost - those are the simplistic, reductive "solutions" which create more problems than they solve and I disagree with them. Apologies, think my sarcasm was a bit too thick.
 
2cents said:
I think most of these discussions boil down to a very heated argument currently taking place in France between two scholars of Islamism, Gilles Kepel and Olivier Roy. Kepel claims that the problem is the radicalization of Islam - i.e. the problem is a growing trend within Islam as it currently stands - whereas Roy argues that it is the Islamization of radicalism - i.e. the phenomenon whereby disgruntled individuals filter their destructive tendencies through Islam. I think most of the repetitive discussions on the Cafe that inevitably follow a terror attack go down this road.
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I think another underlying point is people's relationship to what they think 'the West' is and what it should/should not be. How Islam is depicted somehow seems to be crucial for that, and consequently a lot of these depictions are rather instrumental in nature. They are made to prove a certain prefixed political point on foreign policy/imperialism, immigration, integration etc., rather than to get a realistic grasp of what contemporary Islam is as an actual phenomenon. (Applies to only some posters of course). I guess the debate would be less repetitive if this proxy element wasn't there, but there are certainly reasons it is this exact way.

On that debate you mentioned: I think both tendencies can be observed, so I'm not sure why these positions have to be mutually exclusive. These tendencies seem to be two sides of the same development to me.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I wrestled with it! I've read it for hours and hours, and I could find no justification for his violent and deceitful actions. No matter what circumstantial aspects you'd want to consider. And I thought about what impact this would have upon readers. The natural instinct would be to justify it, somehow, as much as my natural instinct would be to justify and explain problematic biblical passages. But the one thing that made all the difference tonne was the constant comparison with Christ as described in the NT. And there's no doubt in my mind that the only model of life worth following is the one of Christ and not Mohammed. At some point when I have more time I've decided to check in with some Muslims and discuss this properly.
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That is what its all about. Before you leave reading the Quran you might want to see what it says about Jesus and Mariam (Mary), peace be upon them, for a different perspective. The only thing missing will be the son of God angle obviously.
 
I don't like people saying how they won't be made afraid. Firstly, it's not an attack on your way of life. They don't care about your values as long as it doesn't affect them. Secondly, if something major like this happens, you should stop on reflect on why it happened. It's not even bravery, it's insanity. Maybe people are just putting on a brave face (let those mean terrorists know that we won't change our values of free speech or whatever no matter what they do) but it stops the discussion taking place.
 
pocco said:
If that were ever proven to be true, then we're fecked. What you're saying is basically that our government is willing to sacrifice our lives, all those kids that died yesterday, for money. If it was true then I'm just wasting my time talking about it because this isn't ever going away.
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I mean it's all true. There's been news about it constantly for the last 30-40 years now. Just that we have been on this side of it and mostly think about them as evil so don't care what happens.
 
notcool said:
I don't like people saying how they won't be made afraid. Firstly, it's not an attack on your way of life. They don't care about your values as long as it doesn't affect them. Secondly, if something major like this happens, you should stop on reflect on why it happened. It's not even bravery, it's insanity. Maybe people are just putting on a brave face (let those mean terrorists know that we won't change our values of free speech or whatever no matter what they do) but it stops the discussion taking place.
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Surely it is though? Attacks like this, if we are to associate them with a general motive of radical terrorism, are designed to strike fear into us and therefore change the way we live.
 
mancan92 said:
Not a fact at all. It has been shown throughout human history that people will use their greed for whatever they want to achieve. Nothing to do with religion. You forget all the great things religion teaches and the great things religious people have achieved.

Have the UK/US armies killed exponentially more children in the middle east because of religion?
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Indirectly yes.
 
Dumbstar said:
I'm not a Muslim apologist, I'm just a Muslim. If what you read is as bad as you are trying not to say then should there not be 100,000s of people doing this crazy shit in this country alone and millions around the world in every country? Sahih Bukhari is considered important to almost 3/4 of a billion people on earth.

The answer is no because we have scholars that need to use all texts at their disposal to provide meaningful guidance. The extreme (i.e. incorrect) ones are hounded out and thus probably feel the need to have their revenge out of petulance, ego and sin. These are the devil's best agents on earth.
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Well said.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I don't know if there is such thing as authentic at all in this world. I'm just telling you about my impression from everything that I've read either online or in library. I know it's probably not the nicest thing to hear, and i know how I'd feel if one was to criticise my beliefs, but there's no redeeming quality in what I've read so far at all. Especially if I contrast Mohamed's life and actions against those of Christ.
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By authentic i mean its authenticity generally considered by muslims. Jesus (pbuh) has a higher stature in islam than muhammad (pbuh). My only suggestion is, take all the hadiths with a pinch of salt. These phony hadiths are the bread and butter of those who brainwash people into becoming terrorists.
 
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