The bit about City is interesting and the way forward IMO. Unless you have a genius manager this seems like a logical way forward. Ideally I'd like to see things compartmentalized. Woodward handling the business affairs. Manager handling the team/signings. DoF handling the strategy/long term footballing goals.
Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)
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He even had the official title 'manager' for about 30 years and was responsible for hiring and firing the coaches. In German club football, managing and coaching are far more detached than in the PL. I wouldn't call any of our coaches a 'manager' in the sense of, for example, Alex Ferguson, as hardly anyone has nearly that amount of power at their respective clubs.
Doesn't that really depend on the club though? From what I can tell most clubs don't really have a "most important" man, at City Begiristain is the one who spent years building City in Barcelona's image, I'd say he's every bit as important as Guardiola. I think having a good relationship between the DoF/Manager is the most important aspect of a club, look at Liverpool, Edwards and Klopp work well together and they've gone from a team regularly finishing 8th to title challengers/CL finalists. Even when SAF was at United he had an excellent working relationship with Gill which allowed us to be so successful.
This is true in most countries, english fans have a hard time with that idea.
Hi Ed, is that you?
A myth repeated seveeal times doesn't mean it's actually true. See what Bayern said when they sacked him :
Unlike us, Bayern board is full of people with football knowledge and are all ruthless.
I agree we are not playing as well as we could. But I ask myself which players get into Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Spurs team? Barely a single one of our players would be in those starting 11s.
If we are talking about individual comparisons, i.e. not a best XI from those all of those sides put together, I'd say the following would have a decent chance of being in a first XI (assuming they were playing at the top of their game).
De Gea, Pogba, Sanchez, Shaw (maybe), Martial (maybe). Lukaku is obviously worse than Kane & Aguero, but better than Morata or Giroud and I don't particularly rate Firmino either. Rashford when he's playing well would be a decent shout ahead of Son or Lamela.
So on balance, maybe a little less than 50%, but its way less bleak than people make out. We have been blinded to how good some of our players are by 2 1/2 years of negative tactics.
1. Fellaini had a buy out clause that was a certain figure up until a certain date.... instead we delayed and signed him at the end of the window for much more then his release clause.
2. Last time i checked, Fergie is not in charge of hiring people... yes Fergie suggested Moyes, but the final decision to hire him came down to the club and Woodward... thus it was something that Woodward got wrong.
3. It was far too long... it was fairly clearly around December/Jan that he was way out of his depth... if he had gone earlier, maybe we could have salvaged our season? Got a CL spot etc. Ultimately there was no benefit to the club by keeping Moyes in the job for as long as we did, thus it's something that Woody got wrong.
4. LVG had won 2 leagues since 1997... and one of them was with Bayern Munich (who weren't exactly glowing about him). Ultimately though, he failed with us.... and thus hiring him was a mistake and something Woody got wrong.
5. Falcao and ADM for two I'd think... LVG constantly moaned about having an unbalanced squad, which would then mean it made zero sense to get these two players in. Obviously nothing is fact here, but I don't think it's a crazy assumption to think/make (and I'm not the only one who does)
6. Again, he didn't turn it around and it was clear after we went out of the CL that he wasn't the right man.... surely the fact that he didn't turn it around means that giving him time to do so was the wrong decision.
7. If enough places report things - including fairly reliable sources, then i don't see anything wrong in believing them. Plus it ties up with Woody's attitude of having "dream signings" and "all the money in the world"... and like I said, it wastes time. Instead of meeting Perez or whoever to try and sign Varane this summer, why not actually work on getting a CB we can get that would improve us?
8. I have a strong feeling Pogba is one that Jose didn't want, as ultimately he just isn't a Mourinho player at all. But again, Jose constantly talked about having an "unbalanced squad" and it "not being his players" which again makes you wonder who exactly is signing these players. Yes it's not a "fact" but it's hardly a wild assumption either.
9. Jose said he wanted something like 5 players this summer... and that he'd listed out his preferred choices. He got 3 - and one of them was a back up goalkeeper - and then we got all that hoo-ha afterwards with Jose complaining and Ed briefing the media etc.
10. Why do we have to wait until the manager is available to sack someone? I mean Jose is actively harming our chances in the league with his petty squad choices/tactics and it's all got a bit toxic... so why prolong it and potentially harm our progression in the CL and or/the league and just get rid so we can start fresh - even if its just with Carrick in charge.
11. Glad we agree on something!
I do not really understand why are people blaming Eddy? Is there any solid evidence that Woody bought the players that Jose did not actually want? Is it Woody's fault that an absolute majority players bought Jose are misfiring, that the best players we have had recently are DDG (multiple times) and (Herrera once) and neither have got much to do with Jose? I do not believe that the Board are forcing Mou to work on a tight budget nor do I think that they are sabotaging his job. What I do believe in is that Jose is expected to get more out of the players that he has signed and inherited before he is given another 100+ mln quid to spend. At the end of the day the club are spending their money, not Jose's. If anything, Jose was given very good conditions to work in, and he wasted hundreds of millions and is about to pocket a dozen million for all the shite and drama he has served us over 2+ years.
This is what I said in the days right before the transfer window closed. Writing is on the wall. Glazers and Woodward are not supporting the team and the manager doesn't have the resources to meet the targets. Yes, we lost against West Ham, but again West Ham spent more than United this past window so it's not exactly a surprise. When a team is underfunded they'll under perform, it's true of any organization in any industry in the world.
If rumours are to be believed we are looking for a DoF. Great - thats exactly what we need. Someone to take some of the footballing decisions away from Woodward, or at least give him some advice.
I think Jose's meltdown has come so early this year its forced decision making to be hugely accelerated, which is never ideal. Its clear Mourinho is done, just a matter of time, so do it now, get McKenna and Carrick in for a few months, get the DoF in and give him some time to put some plans into place and then hire the right permanent manager. If that is Zidane, fine, if its someone else then fine too.
Its not rocket science, but we need to take the first step now - i.e. sack Jose.
All the angst about Woody and Jose, if you understand Jose and his tactics (if you hire him, you should), his best teams always contain wingers that provide chances for the physical striker.
Over 2 Windows, Woody did not rate the wingers Jose wanted to "balance" his team, let's face it , Bale was not going to leave Madrid despite Woodys dribbling on about such a signing as being the richest club who can do things others only dream about.
A striker like Laukaku thrives on finshing from quick breaks and decent crosses so he can use his physical presence.
Anyway, both have to take some blame, but if you have a a manager that plays a specific style and you don't support it, you get what you get. Bailly and Lindelof are basically development players, and that's why an experienced C/B like Toby was needed to provide stability and an ability to play out properly from the back.
The preferred outcome would,be for them both to go, and start with a clean sheet,not going to happen unfortunately.
Over 2 Windows, Woody did not rate the wingers Jose wanted to "balance" his team, let's face it , Bale was not going to leave Madrid despite Woodys dribbling on about such a signing as being the richest club who can do things others only dream about.
A striker like Laukaku thrives on finshing from quick breaks and decent crosses so he can use his physical presence.
Anyway, both have to take some blame, but if you have a a manager that plays a specific style and you don't support it, you get what you get. Bailly and Lindelof are basically development players, and that's why an experienced C/B like Toby was needed to provide stability and an ability to play out properly from the back.
The preferred outcome would,be for them both to go, and start with a clean sheet,not going to happen unfortunately.
Why was there a shot of him with Patrice Evra? Who gives a shit what this bulb headed twat is doing?
Proper weird. Tabloid style obsession, I have no idea.
Proper weird. Tabloid style obsession, I have no idea.
It's been 4.5 years since Moyes was sent packing and the club is in exactly the same state now as it was the day he walked out the door - I think that's mostly on Ed.
In every department, coaching, scouting, concluding transfers, investment in infrastructure etc etc, we're woefully lacking and appear to have stood still relative to our rivals. Simply changing the manager will not solve the core issue and I fully expect us to be back here in 2-3 years time, with the team in disarray, wondering where it all went wrong and begging for a trophyless Zidane to be fired.
In every department, coaching, scouting, concluding transfers, investment in infrastructure etc etc, we're woefully lacking and appear to have stood still relative to our rivals. Simply changing the manager will not solve the core issue and I fully expect us to be back here in 2-3 years time, with the team in disarray, wondering where it all went wrong and begging for a trophyless Zidane to be fired.
Was it actually Woodward who hired Moyes, or did David Gill do the majority of that? I remember looking into that question a year or two ago and it seemed to mostly be on Gill, but I can't seem to find those reports anymore. Most likely it was a combination of Gill, Fergie and Woodward. From what we've seen of him since then Moyes certainly doesn't feel like a Woodward signing.
With your other points, I'd agree with some of them and disagree with others. I'd generally disagree with waiting too long to fire the two managers, especially LVG. It was blatantly obvious we were going to sign Mourinho for the following season, so it ultimately became a choice between letting LVG see out the season or putting in a care-taker who likely would have done worse as there weren't any good options for that role. Also, if he signed players that Mourinho didn't want I'm fairly certain we would have heard about it by now. Mourinho would not have let that slide, as it was that kind of thing which he hated at Chelsea and Real Madrid.
I do agree with the wasting of time on 'dream' signings. Particularly in his first couple of seasons; I think he's improved a bit in that regard (although that may have been Mourinho demanding realistic moves).
Agreed but I think appointing a DoF is just ed's lip service and that he won't do it.
Mitchell was one of the names bandied around by the media a few weeks ago. He’s a Manchester lad with a good reputationWriting Paul Mitchell at top of his post confused me, Geebs. Doesn't take much.
So, you accept that hiring the wrong manager will not fix us. You also accept that Woodward is unlikely to hire the right manager So we basically agree that Woodward changing our manager alone is unlikely to fix us?
Yes, we might scrape top 4 this season with a new manager. But if you consider that 'fixed' then you've forgotten how far we have fallen.
No he hasn't.
If he doesn't then I'd be happy to see him removed from football related decisions completely so he can concentrate on our next South Korean toothpaste partner.
I have some sympathy for him tbh. Trusted Fergie's opinion which turned out to be a bad error of judgement. Got LVG which should have been a relatively safe pair of hands. Then got Mourinho who came with a stellar CV. Has backed them all, with the possible exception of Mourinho in the summer, my only criticism there is that if he wasn't going to back him he should have sacked him. Anything else is just a fudge.
We never needed a DoF in the past, due to Fergie being here so long, but its clear as day we need one now. If anything its more important to get the DoF decision correct than the manager.
It depends on what you mean by fixing us. I think that's where the disagreement comes from. I feel as if many of you think the next manager can't challenge for the biggest titles because Woodward is here, and that is just flat out wrong. Not this season obviously as there are way too many points to make up. However, without a DOF it is more likely that the next manager does not achieve that because Woodward has no vision and will likely hire the wrong manager.
Another damaging aspect of where we are at the moment is that without the manager getting the best or close to the best out of the players we don't really know where we need to strengthen. This will confuse our transfer policy even further.
Fans should remember that Woodward is not appointed by the fans that wants to see attacking football or the club winning trophies. He is appointed by the owners, and thus governs this club/corporation on their behalf. As the owners does not really seem to care about what happens on the pitch, the interest they are having is most likely financial. And consequently the main objective for Woodward is to ensure that this club stays profitable/increases in value/revenue etc.
Evaluating Ed Woodwards job performance since SAF retired based on the presumed performance objectives given by the owners (financial growth) would see Woodward doing an excellent job(in the eyes of the owners).
If the owners wanted attacking football, winning trophies and the job objectives were to improve us on the pitch and the trainingground, then the evaluation would be the complete opposite. And he would have lost his job a long time a go, or most likely we would have hired a man with background/experience/credentials in football for governing the club in the beginning and not give Woodward this responsibility.
That being said, regardless of what Woodwards/the clubs main objectives are, with the money we have spent/are spending on transfers and wages we should not be where we are. And fans can and should be critical towards Woodward on a number of elements regardless of what his job objectives are.
Evaluating Ed Woodwards job performance since SAF retired based on the presumed performance objectives given by the owners (financial growth) would see Woodward doing an excellent job(in the eyes of the owners).
If the owners wanted attacking football, winning trophies and the job objectives were to improve us on the pitch and the trainingground, then the evaluation would be the complete opposite. And he would have lost his job a long time a go, or most likely we would have hired a man with background/experience/credentials in football for governing the club in the beginning and not give Woodward this responsibility.
That being said, regardless of what Woodwards/the clubs main objectives are, with the money we have spent/are spending on transfers and wages we should not be where we are. And fans can and should be critical towards Woodward on a number of elements regardless of what his job objectives are.
This thing about Woodward buying players Jose didn't want must be damage control revisionism. I doubt Woodward had ever heard of Bailly and Lindelof before Jose asked for them. We also know Jose wanted Sanchez just based off of his comments at the time. That interview about Sanchez being the juiciest of oranges wasn't made at gunpoint
Seeing how well his Lille have started the season in Ligue 1 and how his former team Monaco have sunk (now replenished with Michael Emenalo signings), I think Luis Campos is the right man for us.
Looking at his record -
In 2012-2013, he was a scout for Jose Mourinho's Real Madrid. Their only signings that year were Modric for 30 Mill. € and Diego Lopez for 3.5 Mill. €. He might have contributed to the next Summer's transfers - Isco, Carvajal and Casemiro for a combined 42.5 Mill. € (but let's not mention Bale at 101 Mill. € and Illarramendi at 32 Mill. €).
As Monaco sporting director, he signed James Rodriquez, Martial, Fabinho, Abdennour, Bernardo Silva, Bakayoko, Cavaleiro, Rony Lopes, Jemerson, Carrillo (not great player but huge profit to Southampton), Saint-Maximin and Lemar while instructing the club to sign Sidibe, Glik, Mendy and Jorge in the window following his departure.
As for financial stats -
2013:
Spent = 160,70 Mill. €
Received = 4,75 Mill. €
2014:
Spent = 39,75 Mill. €
Received = 89,12 Mill. €
2015:
Spent = 101,06 Mill. €
Received = 185,15 Mill. €
2016 (he had left his post but recommended incoming signings):
Spent = 50,50 Mill. €
Received = 18,20 Mill. €
Campos' scouting genius led to Monaco receiving 244,50 Mill. € in fees in 2017 and helped them to receiving 316,85 Mill. € in 2018.
At Lille, it's fairly early to judge his signings as he's only had 4 transfer windows but Nicolas Pepe has been excellent. Thiago Maia, Jonathan Bamba, Rafael Leao, Jonathan Ikone, Thiago Mendes and Xeka appear to be good talents. Lots of academy players have been promoted in Campos' time too, including Hamza Mendyl who Schalke signed for 7 Mill. € after only a season.
Jan 2017:
Spent = 20,70 Mill. €
Received = 0
2017:
Spent = 64,00 Mill. €
Received = 31,10 Mill. €
2018:
Spent = 8,90 Mill. €
Received = 60,20 Mill. €
He's a friend of Jose Mourinho so either we stick with Jose and try to make it work with a better setup around him or sack Jose before Campos is brought in (my preference). One structural issue we'd face is that Campos prefers to surround himself with a small team of super scouts as opposed to the recently assembled army of scouts worldwide that we now operate with. I hope this happens though and hope Campos can help recommend a quality manager/coach in the same way he identifies quality players.
Looking at his record -
In 2012-2013, he was a scout for Jose Mourinho's Real Madrid. Their only signings that year were Modric for 30 Mill. € and Diego Lopez for 3.5 Mill. €. He might have contributed to the next Summer's transfers - Isco, Carvajal and Casemiro for a combined 42.5 Mill. € (but let's not mention Bale at 101 Mill. € and Illarramendi at 32 Mill. €
).As Monaco sporting director, he signed James Rodriquez, Martial, Fabinho, Abdennour, Bernardo Silva, Bakayoko, Cavaleiro, Rony Lopes, Jemerson, Carrillo (not great player but huge profit to Southampton), Saint-Maximin and Lemar while instructing the club to sign Sidibe, Glik, Mendy and Jorge in the window following his departure.
As for financial stats -
2013:
Spent = 160,70 Mill. €
Received = 4,75 Mill. €
2014:
Spent = 39,75 Mill. €
Received = 89,12 Mill. €
2015:
Spent = 101,06 Mill. €
Received = 185,15 Mill. €
2016 (he had left his post but recommended incoming signings):
Spent = 50,50 Mill. €
Received = 18,20 Mill. €
Campos' scouting genius led to Monaco receiving 244,50 Mill. € in fees in 2017 and helped them to receiving 316,85 Mill. € in 2018.
At Lille, it's fairly early to judge his signings as he's only had 4 transfer windows but Nicolas Pepe has been excellent. Thiago Maia, Jonathan Bamba, Rafael Leao, Jonathan Ikone, Thiago Mendes and Xeka appear to be good talents. Lots of academy players have been promoted in Campos' time too, including Hamza Mendyl who Schalke signed for 7 Mill. € after only a season.
Jan 2017:
Spent = 20,70 Mill. €
Received = 0
2017:
Spent = 64,00 Mill. €
Received = 31,10 Mill. €
2018:
Spent = 8,90 Mill. €
Received = 60,20 Mill. €
He's a friend of Jose Mourinho so either we stick with Jose and try to make it work with a better setup around him or sack Jose before Campos is brought in (my preference). One structural issue we'd face is that Campos prefers to surround himself with a small team of super scouts as opposed to the recently assembled army of scouts worldwide that we now operate with. I hope this happens though and hope Campos can help recommend a quality manager/coach in the same way he identifies quality players.
Why not?
With Marotta available, I'd like us to appoint him and go with the Juve model but with Marotta under Woodward since he will be the one making the appointment anyway.
Marotta's experience will be vital and we can then bring in a younger guy to do the recruiting job as a DOF cum head of recruitment.
Mou's replacement can then be full head coach rather than a manager.
Basically for the sporting side:
Glazers > Woodward > Marotta > DOF/HOR > head coach.
Marotta's experience will be vital and we can then bring in a younger guy to do the recruiting job as a DOF cum head of recruitment.
Mou's replacement can then be full head coach rather than a manager.
Basically for the sporting side:
Glazers > Woodward > Marotta > DOF/HOR > head coach.
We should appoint someone in keeping with our current strategy of pissing off and dropping our best players, and bigging up the ones who aren't very good.
I'm thinking Graeme Souness.
I'm thinking Graeme Souness.
Why do you say that? Why do people think Ed is some sort of egomaniac?
Because he's exerting his authority like previous people in his position have done with every manager ever.
Paul Mitchell has to be top of the list in my opinion, when you think about what he did for both Southampton and Tottenham in terms of player recruitment etc, he's also worked with Pochettino at two clubs, that and he also young and from Manchester makes it almost an easy appointment, in my opinion.
Because of what he did in the last transfer window by not backing Jose and literally stranding him in the end . If that wasn't enough he briefed the media just after the transfer window about how he was ready to invest in players which he feels fits the profile of our club . This was very bad on his side to pull off this stunt . I am not Mourinho fan but if you have a manager then you let him decide whom he wants to sign and back him rather than deciding everything yourself when you have no experience in footballing matters .
Another point which irked me was how in the last general meeting he boasted to the shareholders that the footballing part doesn't matter and he will keep making the profits irrespective of our club's results in all competitions.
To be fair that's a good belief to have in terms of who we recruit, it's just Jose is not the manager for that philosophy. Last sentence is a loaded sentence. You're making it sound far worse than what he actually said. He simply said revenue isn't directly caused by on-field success, which is obviously true. I want him out/replaced as much as anyone but what you're saying is completely unfair.
So not to detract from the discussion over who it should be but... Havent we ve been set to hire a DoF for quite a while now? Doesn't seem like we've been set at all.
It's going to be very difficult for a DoF to have to report to someone that knows feck all about football,so he will need a certain degree of autonomy.
Why not go for Laurent Blanc,ably assisted by 'special advisor' Eric Cantona!Both know the Club very well and could design a strategy for the next 5-10 years,then have Zidane implement the plan next season.
Why not go for Laurent Blanc,ably assisted by 'special advisor' Eric Cantona!Both know the Club very well and could design a strategy for the next 5-10 years,then have Zidane implement the plan next season.
This would be my idea as well. Also he’s at Leipzig now as well, right?
Maybe he did what he thought was best for the club. He heavily back Mourinho in his first two windows here. The manager have to get the best out from his first signings before wanting more. Unless you want him to keeping spending blindly and waste money. Do you think a sporting director wouldn't do the same? A sporting director could do worse because he'd be the one deciding the type of players he'd like to sign for the manager. Your last paragraph does not mean he won't bring in anyone that would do a big job for the football side. He is not an idiot. More trophies, more money.
And he was talking to shareholders not fans, the formers invested their money in order to make money. He isn't going to tell them that their investment depends on our success on the field.
Make Pog captain too and bring in Evra as assistant coach. Let the french rule.
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