yes the Shaw thing is nothing new.... selling him last Summer would have provided a stronger message about standards than publicly shaming him and damaging squad atmosphere - would you trust your manager if he acted like this - I suppose fear is Mourinho's motivation in many ways
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Can't see Chelsea wanting him with Alonso and that other fullback they signed in January.
Surely playing well during games should be the biggest factor with regards to earning playing time? Eating right and doing well in training is all well and good if it helps you perform during matches. If the boy you’re competing with for a starting berth loves takeaways, smoking, drinking and hates training but has a stormer every weekend it’s a no-brainer - your great attitude means nothing if he outperforms you when it matters.
It cracked me up reading about Bobby Gould at Wimbledon keeping two sets of boxing gloves above his desk, as a reminder that if anyone wanted to, he was ready to go, any time. Brilliant, wish we could have half of that spirit. These guys earns so much money chasing a ball you`d wish they could handle their manager telling them to chase it in the way.
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...the manager wants them to chase it.
If he had done what Jose had asked him to do during the Brighton game we might not be having this discussion. He gave him simple instructions and he didn't carry them out.
I've been critical of Shaw, but in this instance, I cannot blame him for anything. The lad surprised me and others by showing some resilience when he came in for that short run during Young's absence. He was also developing an understanding with his team mates which should have been allowed to continue.
Then Young comes back and Jose promptly drops him to the bench for reasons unknown. To make it worst, apart from the Liverpool game, Young has not performed better than Shaw. Yet the manager then singles him out and publicly humiliates him again. Giving him a public kick up the backside once is one thing, but the constant barrage is bizarre from the manager. It's no wonder the kid feels like he's being jerked around.
Jose just shows he doesn't fancy him no matter how well he does. Based on this I doubt we can blame Shaw in this instance.
Then Young comes back and Jose promptly drops him to the bench for reasons unknown. To make it worst, apart from the Liverpool game, Young has not performed better than Shaw. Yet the manager then singles him out and publicly humiliates him again. Giving him a public kick up the backside once is one thing, but the constant barrage is bizarre from the manager. It's no wonder the kid feels like he's being jerked around.
Jose just shows he doesn't fancy him no matter how well he does. Based on this I doubt we can blame Shaw in this instance.
I don't agree with that. I think Young clearly has played better than Shaw. His level has been consistently good. But Shaw is being singled out by the manager in a way that does not seem to be fair based on his match performances. He is trying to light a fire under him but not all players respond to that and I don't think Shaw will. He needs a new club.
Not many will agree with me, but I see a Jose that absolutely rates Shaw as a talent but is so disappointed with his output.
He plays Shaw because he thinks there's talent there to try and kickstart, as we all do. But for whatever reason, Shaw just doesn't play and apply himself the way Jose wants. Jose is an excellent defensive coach for all his faults, and for a young defender not to listen to him is absolutely fecking stupid.
If Jose absolutely hated Shaw, I think he would have gone the way of Daley Blind. Not even on the bench and forgotten to time.
He plays Shaw because he thinks there's talent there to try and kickstart, as we all do. But for whatever reason, Shaw just doesn't play and apply himself the way Jose wants. Jose is an excellent defensive coach for all his faults, and for a young defender not to listen to him is absolutely fecking stupid.
If Jose absolutely hated Shaw, I think he would have gone the way of Daley Blind. Not even on the bench and forgotten to time.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo.../If-Shaw-feels-bullied-say-Jose-Mourinho.html
This is a well thought out piece from Martin Samuel. He is arguing that rather than Jose bullying Shaw, it could be viewed as a more tough love approach that has always been used in football, and cites various examples. He also highlights how Jose at times has spoken positively of Shaw and tried to sign him for Chelsea, so perhaps Jose does really rate him but is disappointed with his commitment, and knows he is capable of much more.
Personally I agree with this view. I think Jose rates him, but we don't see training every day which is where he is obviously feeling Shaw could be doing a lot more. And when Shaw was pulled off at half time the other day, he wasn't bad but he wasn't exactly pulling up any trees either. That might be where the issue lies, that while Shaw put in a decent but not great performance, Jose knows he can do a lot more and feels that he isn't showing that.
Maybe the truth is somewhere in between Shaw needing to show more commitment to Jose and take on board what he is being told, and Jose needing to lay off a wee bit, but ultimately the future is down to Shaw himself. It's fight or flight time, and his decision will tell us a lot about him. I think bullying accusations are OTT.
Edit: @spiriticon beat me to it
This is a well thought out piece from Martin Samuel. He is arguing that rather than Jose bullying Shaw, it could be viewed as a more tough love approach that has always been used in football, and cites various examples. He also highlights how Jose at times has spoken positively of Shaw and tried to sign him for Chelsea, so perhaps Jose does really rate him but is disappointed with his commitment, and knows he is capable of much more.
Personally I agree with this view. I think Jose rates him, but we don't see training every day which is where he is obviously feeling Shaw could be doing a lot more. And when Shaw was pulled off at half time the other day, he wasn't bad but he wasn't exactly pulling up any trees either. That might be where the issue lies, that while Shaw put in a decent but not great performance, Jose knows he can do a lot more and feels that he isn't showing that.
Maybe the truth is somewhere in between Shaw needing to show more commitment to Jose and take on board what he is being told, and Jose needing to lay off a wee bit, but ultimately the future is down to Shaw himself. It's fight or flight time, and his decision will tell us a lot about him. I think bullying accusations are OTT.
Edit: @spiriticon beat me to it
It would depend on what the manager values the most tbh and besides it ain't like Shaw's performances are that great anyway so that is a moot point.
It's the perfect storm in the press at the moment. Young, English fullback, the future of the national team, dropped by the evil Mourinho at the club everyone loves to hate.
Never mind that he's never strung together more than a handful of decent games and every manager he's ever had has questioned his attitude.
I've gone off Jose recently but Shaw is one thing he's completely justified on.
Never mind that he's never strung together more than a handful of decent games and every manager he's ever had has questioned his attitude.
I've gone off Jose recently but Shaw is one thing he's completely justified on.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo.../If-Shaw-feels-bullied-say-Jose-Mourinho.html
This is a well thought out piece from Martin Samuel. He is arguing that rather than Jose bullying Shaw, it could be viewed as a more tough love approach that has always been used in football, and cites various examples. He also highlights how Jose at times has spoken positively of Shaw and tried to sign him for Chelsea, so perhaps Jose does really rate him but is disappointed with his commitment, and knows he is capable of much more.
Personally I agree with this view. I think Jose rates him, but we don't see training every day which is where he is obviously feeling Shaw could be doing a lot more. And when Shaw was pulled off at half time the other day, he wasn't bad but he wasn't exactly pulling up any trees either. That might be where the issue lies, that while Shaw put in a decent but not great performance, Jose knows he can do a lot more and feels that he isn't showing that.
Maybe the truth is somewhere in between Shaw needing to show more commitment to Jose and take on board what he is being told, and Jose needing to lay off a wee bit, but ultimately the future is down to Shaw himself. It's fight or flight time, and his decision will tell us a lot about him. I think bullying accusations are OTT.
Edit: @spiriticon beat me to it
Maybe, but one persons tough live is another persons bullying. If Shaw does feel like that, and we only really have paper gossip to go on for his side of things, then Jose needs to lay off and just sell him.
What annoys me is he and Young are completely different types of full backs but whenever he has got game time, we did not adjust anything. Young likes to get the ball back from the wide forward inside the opposition half, switch to his right and drop a diagonal cross in, where Shaw will overlap and try to go the byline and drill a cut back cross with his left. It happened on one of the few occasions he got forward the other night, and all our players were near the back post. Brainless. Maybe Jose wants a drifted cross, if so I don't think Shaw would ever be the player for him.
How can that possibly make any sense when hes already been in the team of the season when he was a teenager, before coming here? Of course he can have a great career somewhere else, he already had one of the greatest starts imaginable before being subjected to our grumpy managers.
I agree with you and think that's why Shaw's still at the club. Mourinho thinks he could be a very good player. Shaw just comes across as very sensitive and I'm not sure he has the desire and mentality to apply himself.
You're right, maybe Shaw does feel like it is bullying. But as I said, if he decides he wants to leave in the summer, personally that tells me more about Shaw than anything else. Maybe Jose does need to dial it down a bit, but maybe it's because he's so disappointed with what he's seeing from Shaw and knows he can do so much more, and is trying to drag that out of him.
On a side note, I've reached the point where I'm fed up making excuses for any player at the club, so many players have been given a free pass for too long and some tough love really is required now IMO to try and turn things around. If players show that they can take instructions on board, try to improve and show some desire then yes, they are United players. Anything else isn't acceptable, and any player not willing to show that can leave for all I care now.
I agree on your second point, that we don't change tactic to adjust for Young or Shaw, but I think we have real problems with our wide play anyway. It's so poor, that I feel our guys don't put much stock in it anyway lol.
Agreed, and the part it bold is spot on I think.
I think after the injury his mentality never recovered to that level required for a club our size.
Mourinho has given him kind love, tough love and chances. He hasn't delivered to the standard that the manager seems to think he is capable of. So, bye bye and good luck elsewhere. He'll probably spout venom against Mourinho when he leaves, but later on he'll most likely have regrets about not applying himself better.
But he did at Southampton to the extent that he was in the team of the season as a teenager.
So the real question is can Mourinho man manage players who don't just respond to being singled out and scapegoated? Some players can respond to that, they have a chip on their shoulder and refuse to let someone like that be right. But thats not every person or every player.
Sir Alex knew when to put his arm around the shoulder of his players and had that father-child relationship with a lot of them. LVG was more similar to Mourinho, complain, blame and hope for the best.
Perhaps thats true. I'd say the same goes for Mourinho after the Real Madrid debacle though and he's now doing the opposite of how he treated his players in his first stint at Chelsea.
He also had an uncanny knack of knowing when to ship them out when least expected.
Agreed.
Going forward whatever happens with Shaw, we as a club have to start recruiting better we need to stop buying on face value and hoping players will just slot in.
We need to do better background checks. We did the same with schneiderlin him and Shaw both had a good season so we just bought them based on that alone, its obvious no one looked at what they're like off the pitch, what kind of mentality they have? what makes them tick? how do they handle pressure? what does winning mean to them? etc if these kind of questions were answered before negotiations started I'm sure wouldn't have gone any further.
Shaw has ability but the mentality that's needed to succeed at a club like Man Utd I'm not so sure. I get the feeling hes happy to be a club were there's no great expectations and he can just turn up and go through the motions.
We need to do better background checks. We did the same with schneiderlin him and Shaw both had a good season so we just bought them based on that alone, its obvious no one looked at what they're like off the pitch, what kind of mentality they have? what makes them tick? how do they handle pressure? what does winning mean to them? etc if these kind of questions were answered before negotiations started I'm sure wouldn't have gone any further.
Shaw has ability but the mentality that's needed to succeed at a club like Man Utd I'm not so sure. I get the feeling hes happy to be a club were there's no great expectations and he can just turn up and go through the motions.
@Ekeke, we don't really know for sure and I'm just going by what's been reported and said by other managers. And he doesn't look in great shape at the moment.
If Mou is doing all of this (singling him out) then why is it assumed that Shaw is this poor innocent victim ? I hate Mou and wish he'd feck off tbh but no one targets a player like that if the player is doing 100% what is asked of him.
I mean he did also give Shaw big praise just a few weeks ago.
Yeah it’s not really applicable here, though Shaw did fine with a run of a few games when Young was suspended(?) and was taken right back out the team rather unceremoniously. Right now he reminds me of Valencia - athletic and solid but timid and lacking any sort of aggression/ penetration in his support play.
With players who he had enjoyed a good relationship, but it had turned sour yes
I dont think we can say that about Luke Shaw and Miki. Maybe with Ander if we sell him this summer, at least we got an impressive year from him before he looked like someone devoid of confidence after losing his spot in the team.
But usually with Sir Alex it was several years of success together with a player before things turned and they played was out the door.
I rate Shaw but he clearly doesn't have the mentality to make it at the top. However, Jose is doing more damage than good by bullying him.
He'll never make it so bench him or sell him. Just don't further feck with the kid. The tough love hasn't worked, just sell him.
He'll never make it so bench him or sell him. Just don't further feck with the kid. The tough love hasn't worked, just sell him.
Is a player's job to play well or do 100% whats asked of them even if its the complete wrong thing? How about if whats being asked of the player is impossible because as Scholes, like others have suggested, that no matter what Shaw does Mourinho seems to have decided on him and isnt going to give a fair assessment?
Is it still up to Luke Shaw to do 100% what Mourinho is asking of him, even if its not actually possible? Or is not more important that he puts in decent performances at left back like this week, regardless of what Mourinho is asking.
Why would it not be applicable ? Mourinho had no other choice but to play him and Shaw was average at best. He didn't play to a point it was a tough choice to bench him.
I swear if he wasn't left footed he wouldn't receive half the praise.
One of the most overrated Man Utd player, the player who gets better by not playing and delivers bland performances when playing.
It's up to Mourinho to task what he wants from each player individually.
When he was playing, Shaw was just above average. Nothing Earth shattering, nothing incredible so why would Mou, all of sudden, make him a starter ? Shaw is an average player, his best football was played at 16years old
I wish more people would take Jose at face value when he says something. Go back and watch the end of his last press conference and his response when asked why he's risking losing Shaw to criticism.
We went through the same song and dance on here when it was Mkhitaryan and then when it was Martial. I keep saying the same thing but people are too busy pushing agendas or just not seeing what's right in front of them. Jose has even come out and said it now.
This is a test, sink or swim under the pressure you've now been put under to sort yourself out. If you sink, then you're simply not cut out to play here because huge pressure and expectation is part and parcel of being a Manchester United player. Respond and Jose will fight your corner from then on because he knows you want it and are giving it your all.
For too long these players have hidden behind a manager and their failings and have got away with mediocrity. If the club sided with the players and sacked Jose, these players could have gone through the last 5 or 6 years not performing and getting away with it by default, because the manager gets sacked and a new manager comes in and gives them all a chance again. Stealing a living here, more or less.
We went through the same song and dance on here when it was Mkhitaryan and then when it was Martial. I keep saying the same thing but people are too busy pushing agendas or just not seeing what's right in front of them. Jose has even come out and said it now.
This is a test, sink or swim under the pressure you've now been put under to sort yourself out. If you sink, then you're simply not cut out to play here because huge pressure and expectation is part and parcel of being a Manchester United player. Respond and Jose will fight your corner from then on because he knows you want it and are giving it your all.
For too long these players have hidden behind a manager and their failings and have got away with mediocrity. If the club sided with the players and sacked Jose, these players could have gone through the last 5 or 6 years not performing and getting away with it by default, because the manager gets sacked and a new manager comes in and gives them all a chance again. Stealing a living here, more or less.
Fair enough if Jose doesn’t trust Shaw. He shouldn’t have exposed him to the media like that though.
See my post above. It's the final play by Jose to get a response out of Shaw. We've seen it before.
I think it was Makalele that said recently, Jose will only do this to the players he believes are playing below their capabilities. Why doesn't he dig out Blind, Darmian, Fellaini? Why is it always our perceived better players ie Pogba, Martial, Mkhitaryan, Shaw? It's always the players that have the high ceiling of ability but don't play that way. They let the likes of Young, Fellaini, McTominay, Lingard out perform them. Come on, this is blindingly obvious what is going on here.
I'm not a big fan of Jose right now but I totally agree with you @pocco. Some of these players need to grow up and take responsibility.
I don't know if anyone listened to Simon Jordan's perspective on this last night on Talksport.
He said from a neutral's POV, the last time he saw Shaw play, he hardly seemed to be bothered and never broke sweat, and that Jose may have tried everything to get the response; this may be his last throw of the dice
He said from a neutral's POV, the last time he saw Shaw play, he hardly seemed to be bothered and never broke sweat, and that Jose may have tried everything to get the response; this may be his last throw of the dice
What does calling him out in public achieve over a personal conversation? Can’t this be done in private?
Mourinho is calling out Luke Shaw to millions of people, saying that he almost begs to come off. I’m pretty sure he called him out last season too. Maybe Jose should realize that Shaw won’t be good enough for what he demands and leave it be.
Calling him out in public shows that the manager won't tolerate players not performing to their full capabilities and also doesn't give the player anything to hide behind. If he has the same conversation in private, then the player is on the bench in the next game then it gives the press fuel to add to the fire. If Shaw does move on and performs to the same level, then it shows that Jose is right about the player.
Jose wouldn't do it if he didn't think the player could perform a lot better, I mean c'mon Shaw was the most highly rated LB in the PL only a few years ago. It's not just Shaw, he's also benched Pogba for his lack of prominence on the pitch, he should be dictating games for us.
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