Luiz Gustavo

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Yep, i agree, this summer has been the worst I've seen the Caf "behave", and I've been reading for a solid 6 years (since 2008).


I'm not glancing at any posters when I mention this, but some of the criticism was really insane amol and yes, I can understand why some posters might be a little defensive of Moyes and the club, rightly and wrongly.

Surely you can see that.



I agree. We do need some bodies in the middle and if we read this thread further back, I would actually not mind us signing Gustavo. But some comments like "He's much better than Fellaini" or posters just can't understand "why we're not in for him" are a bit OTT. He's a very good DM, but a good/decent CM, and not exactly what we're looking for should make it obvious why we might not be going all out to get him. Also, he's not "miles" better than Fellaini either. That's debatable.

So I'd like his signing, especially from a "number of bodies" perspective, but it's not as if Gundogan/Fabregas/Thiago (oh wait, he chose Bayern :lol:)/Modric suddenly became available etc. If we weren't interested in them, I'd understand the criticism. Also, I doubt Gustavo wants to move somewhere where he might be competing for a first XI spot - it's a world cup year.

No way do I think he is better than Fellaini.

Whenever I watched Everton I waited for the big fecker to score, he always looked menacing. Gustavo is never going to bring that kind of excitement to us. Bring Fellaini on, can't wait.
 
No way do I think he is better than Fellaini.

Whenever I watched Everton I waited for the big fecker to score, he always looked menacing. Gustavo is never going to bring that kind of excitement to us. Bring Fellaini on, can't wait.


Fellaini wouldnt play as the 2nd striker for us like he did for Everton last season.
 
The reason we won't be looking at Gustavo is because he is predominantly a holding player and offers little goal threat. He's a good player but I don't think you can claim he's miles better than Fellaini. Fellaini can be used box to box and offers a substantial goal threat. That what we are looking for, which is why we went for Fabregas and it's something Modric, for all his qualities, doesn't offer. Buying Fellaini doesn't mean we will play hoof ball in the slightest, but what it does mean is that when we pass our way into decent crossing positions that we have a midfielder capable of breaking into the box and scoring goals. That can happen with an intelligent runner like Fasbregas, or a more physical approach like Fellaini, but the end result is more goals from midfield.
 
Brnwed: football is a passionate sport and calm, rational thoughts are not typical. Therefore, we fans are diametrically opposed on Rooney, the merits of Fellaini, Moyes, the midfield deficiency, everything United. I would say we are all pissed with the lack of transfer activity, even outgoing players!

Also, I subscribe to the "Woodward is a bit of a wanker" school-of-thought, and I have no time for those that defend him! :smirk: He's the Chief Executive officer, the shit stops with him.
 
Are you really trying to say that spoiler and destroyer mean two distinctly different things?I basically think you're taking any chance to complain about Fellaini which has been one of the themes of the summer. Gustavo is a spoiler and I think he's more likely to spend all his time breaking up the play than Fellaini, so you're either moving the goalposts here or your views on Gustavo are miles away from what everyone else who has watched him regularly is saying. Amol may not like the idea that posters are grouped together but the simple fact is if you looked at the transfer forum across various summers you'd see different groups of people voicing the same opinions based on the same themes - the club are idiots because they're not signing the players I think they should. The way people act now is remarkably similar to ehsanul - although the arguments are perhaps written a bit more eloquently.

I think part of it is down to what Steve said.I understand the reasoning behind the cultural shift but it doesn't apply here, in my view, because these people that think they could do these things just as well are doing so based on a tiny amount of information/evidence/experience etc. I get the impression that are some people that are so delusional that they genuinely think they know better than people at United. I'm not saying "don't voice any opinions because you don't know as much as Moyes/Woodward", I'm just saying if you really find the club's conduct embarrassing and you really get upset to the extent to say you're on the verge of a mental breakdown* because they aren't signing a player you think is good enough based off a tiny amount of footage then you probably need to take a step back.

*Yes, I'm aware of the exaggeration

I'm saying that a specialist defensive midfielder is different to someone like Fellaini who is simply not very good at that; what he's good at is being a nuisance and being unpleasant to play against because he's big and throws his elbows around and is physically strong. The wording was and is a bit contradictory, I admit, but I view Gustavo as an actual specialist midfielder who has the intelligence and ability to do a good job and has a good enough passing to not necessarily feck up the transition between defending and attacking. Fellaini is uncomfortable to play against and fouls a lot and puts himself about; I think a midfielder for a big club should be a bit more refined and intelligent than that and I think Gustavo is. You might disagree, you might think Fellaini is actually a disciplined player with the awareness to play well as a DM; I don't think so. Fellaini can "get stuck in" and offers an aerial threat and that, in my opinion, should not be enough for a club like Manchester United.

Erosion of faith and all that - I don't know. I certainly don't find the club's conduct embarassing; I find it very, very odd that we let the midfield deteriorate into the state it is in now and yet this summer we seem to have done little else but put in reportedly ridiculous bids for Fábregas which - if the reported amounts were true - were always going to be rejected.

We do not know better than the people at the club. But not having signed a central midfielder for six years is still very odd and we could have done better there. Other clubs managed to sign quality midfielders in that time and there's no reason why we couldn't have done that as well. If we had one more quality, proven CM on our books right now Moyes would be under a lot less pressure.
 
Fellaini wouldnt play as the 2nd striker for us like he did for Everton last season.

I appreciate that, but Fellaini, in possession facing a defence is great to watch. His physicality, his relative speed and his determination will be refreshing, he ain't no Ando. :) I dare say he will thrive in a better team.

If we do get him, I think our Belgian boys will be a revelation this year.
 
I appreciate that, but Fellaini, in possession facing a defence is great to watch. His physicality, his relative speed and his determination will be refreshing, he ain't no Ando. :) I dare say he will thrive in a better team.

If we do get him, I think our Belgian boys will be a revelation this year.


I want us to sign him but I disagree with much of that. He isnt really great to watch tbh neither is his speed anything to write home about. He'd provide a solid midfield core alongside Carrick though and would add a new dimension to our set pieces, that's all am expecting from him.
 
I want us to sign him but I disagree with much of that. He isnt really great to watch tbh neither is his speed anything to write home about. He'd provide a solid midfield core alongside Carrick though and would add a new dimension to our set pieces, that's all am expecting from him.

We will have to agree to disagree, I see things totally different.
 
I want us to sign him but I disagree with much of that. He isnt really great to watch tbh neither is his speed anything to write home about. He'd provide a solid midfield core alongside Carrick though and would add a new dimension to our set pieces, that's all am expecting from him.

That's not really true. He's a bit like Welbeck in that he can look clumsy and awkward but technically he's very good and composed.
 
That's not really true. He's a bit like Welbeck in that he can look clumsy and awkward but technically he's very good and composed.


Welbeck's better on the ball but I wouldnt classify him as great to watch either. I rate Fellaini as a player, think he's underrated here but he isnt great to watch and neither is he quick in any way.
 
I want us to sign him but I disagree with much of that. He isnt really great to watch tbh neither is his speed anything to write home about. He'd provide a solid midfield core alongside Carrick though and would add a new dimension to our set pieces, that's all am expecting from him.

I think we're in danger of overstating the importance of one player. Fellaini may not be the most technically gifted passer but he can do the simple things well enough. His ability to disrupt the opposition defensively is good and making late run into the box, attacking set pieces etc is something we've lacked in midfield for some time. What I don't expect is that he has to be a Xavi or Scholes on the ball. If we have as front 6 of (and I'll exclude Rooney for now) Carrick, Fellaini, Kagawa, Welbeck, Nani, RvP, and include the fullbacks Rafael and Evra as part of the attack, do we not have enough technically gifted players to play good passing, attacking football without the need for Fellaini to be world class on the deck?
 
I think we're in danger of overstating the importance of one player. Fellaini may not be the most technically gifted passer but he can do the simple things well enough. His ability to disrupt the opposition defensively is good and making late run into the box, attacking set pieces etc is something we've lacked in midfield for some time. What I don't expect is that he has to be a Xavi or Scholes on the ball. If we have as front 6 of (and I'll exclude Rooney for now) Carrick, Fellaini, Kagawa, Welbeck, Nani, RvP, and include the fullbacks Rafael and Evra as part of the attack, do we not have enough technically gifted players to play good passing, attacking football without the need for Fellaini to be world class on the deck?


I've already said I want him here. I agree with all your points too. I just took exception to the "Fellaini, in possession facing a defence is great to watch" bit as it simply isnt true.
 
We've heard this for like 5 years now. "The club knows what they are doing".

I don't think I'm an expert on anything football related, and I definitely don't think I'm better qualified to comment on the state of United's midfield than club insiders, which makes the state of the midfield more worrying. We've been patching it up for more than 3 years, playing the likes of Rooney, Rafael, Park in there. We brought Scholes back from retirement to play in it, and he easily outshone all our other midfielders (bar Carrick). We've let the likes of Pogba and Morrison leave. We're hoping Anderson wakes up. Giggs... Even with Carrick in there, I would rate the midfield unit as a whole behind the midfields of Chelsea, City and Arsenal, not to mention our rivals on the continent. God forbid Carrick gets a season ending injury.

In the meantime, we've seen midfielders move clubs, both domestically and internationally. Some of those players start in midfields that would muller ours if we ever met in a competitive match. It's baffling to see some people ignore all this context, and say, "The club knows what they are doing". It's even more baffling to suggest Gustavo wouldn't be a good fit for our midfield, just because he can't get into Bayern's midfield. Jesus Christ.

At the moment, our midfield bar Carrick is abysmal. I wouldn't mind getting someone in that's deemed "mediocre", if he can do a decent job, until the next talent or disgruntled star at Bayern or Barcelona comes here.
 
I've already said I want him here. I agree with all your points too. I just took exception to the "Fellaini, in possession facing a defence is great to watch" bit as it simply isnt true.

That's because I said it and refuse to agree with your assessment. He is big and covers the ground quicker than our current midfield, wingers aside.
 
We've heard this for like 5 years now. "The club knows what they are doing".

I don't think I'm an expert on anything football related, and I definitely don't think I'm better qualified to comment on the state of United's midfield than club insiders, which makes the state of the midfield more worrying. We've been patching it up for more than 3 years, playing the likes of Rooney, Rafael, Park in there. We brought Scholes back from retirement to play in it, and he easily outshone all our other midfielders (bar Carrick). We've let the likes of Pogba and Morrison leave. We're hoping Anderson wakes up. Giggs... Even with Carrick in there, I would rate the midfield unit as a whole behind the midfields of Chelsea, City and Arsenal, not to mention our rivals on the continent. God forbid Carrick gets a season ending injury.

In the meantime, we've seen midfielders move clubs, both domestically and internationally. Some of those players start in midfields that would muller ours if we ever met in a competitive match. It's baffling to see some people ignore all this context, and say, "The club knows what they are doing". It's even more baffling to suggest Gustavo wouldn't be a good fit for our midfield, just because he can't get into Bayern's midfield. Jesus Christ.

At the moment, our midfield bar Carrick is abysmal. I wouldn't mind getting someone in that's deemed "mediocre", if he can do a decent job, until the next talent or disgruntled star at Bayern or Barcelona comes here.

If you consider that we have won the title three years out of those five, lost it by a point in another year and lost it through goal difference on the other, I would say they did know what they were doing.

But this year, we do need to sort the midfield.
 
Watching him in the confederations cup, he didn't contribute anything to the midfield, Paulinho was running it on his own. Gustavo was basically a third centre back, rarely passed the ball forward and it looked like his team mates didn't rate him either and would trust the CBs on the ball more than him. ...

I must have watched a different Brazil in the Confed Cup compared to you. Whilst I did think Paulinho looked pretty good, the idea that he ran the midfield on his own is silly, especially considering they were up against Spain in the final. What I saw was Gustavo and Paulinho combining to effectively prevent Spain's midfield from getting into any sort of passing rhythm. They did this through an energetic display of tackling, pressing, intercepting, harrying and disrupting. Yes, Paulinho played further forward and made plenty of forward runs as you'd expect from a box-to-box CM, whilst Gustavo had the more disciplined DM role, but I really don't know how you missed the very effective contribution made by Gustavo throughout the Cup games.
 
If you consider that we have won the title three years out of those five, lost it by a point in another year and lost it through goal difference on the other, I would say they did know what they were doing.

But this year, we do need to sort the midfield.

If you consider how much more this team could have done if we had fixed the midfield problem when it first arose, you'll find that they didn't. A case could made for that.
 
Apparently gave an interview on the eve of Brazil's friendly that he prefers a move to Arsenal as they are in the CL and he likens Wenger as a manager
 
If that stat meant anything, I'm sure Pep "I'm in love with possession" Guardiola would have found a way to use him and not put him up for sale.
 
Apparently gave an interview on the eve of Brazil's friendly that he prefers a move to Arsenal as they are in the CL and he likens Wenger as a manager

:(

But it's understandable. He has a home World Cup coming up and will want be playing his football at the highest level.

Annoying to say the least though.
 
After reading Balu's description of him (which is probably the closest thing to being accurate on here) I think he might be a bit too limited for us. Of course he would be a useful addition, but we have Jones who can play that limited CM/DM role if need be and probably need more of an all rounder.
 
Let's not compare jones in midfield as holding midfielder to proper holding midfielders. He's not a midfielde
 
After reading Balu's description of him (which is probably the closest thing to being accurate on here) I think he might be a bit too limited for us. Of course he would be a useful addition, but we have Jones who can play that limited CM/DM role if need be and probably need more of an all rounder.

I don't know why Jones is considered a utility player just because he's been used in a few positions due to our lack of depth in those areas under the assertation that it helps his development. He's a poor right back, we looked very limited in that position when Rafael went off yesterday, and he's no midfielder either. He can do a good man marking job on a number 10 but that doesn't make him a good defensive mid. He'll be a top class Centre half and that's it.
 
This doesn't mean much, Xavi had a poor season by his standards yet by looking at these stats you'd think he were amazing.

Very true. Passing stats can be very misleading. Xavi is an incredibly safe passer, in that he rarely fails to deliver the ball to a team mate. He is also a great passer of the ball. But the latter doesn't in any way follow from the former. There are many safe passers around who are not great passers of the ball. It's not uncommon to see very high percentages for centre backs, for instance.

Many will remember Britton's great stats from the season before last. The fact is that you still need to observe what these players actually do on the pitch in order to determine how good they are at passing the ball, just looking at the stats won't tell you much about the quality of the passes they make.

Gustavo's percentage isn't completely irrelevant, of course. It indicates that he rarely gives the ball away - which is a good thing for a defensive midfielder.
 
Let's not compare jones in midfield as holding midfielder to proper holding midfielders. He's not a midfielde

I don't know why Jones is considered a utility player just because he's been used in a few positions due to our lack of depth in those areas under the assertation that it helps his development. He's a poor right back, we looked very limited in that position when Rafael went off yesterday, and he's no midfielder either. He can do a good man marking job on a number 10 but that doesn't make him a good defensive mid. He'll be a top class Centre half and that's it.

I wasn't comparing him to Jones. More the fact that from Balu's description Gustavo sounds like a fairly limited DM kind of player we rarely play with and someone who would hardly benefit us, except in some games for tactical reasons (i.e. away to Chelsea or Madrid or something) - and in that instance Jones has proved he can do a filler job to shut down a no.10 etc. Of course it is not ideal, but I think it would be better to let Jones plug in a gap on the rare chance we require his input in that role and go for a CM we need more instead of someone like Gustavo who is not as rounded.
 
I wasn't comparing him to Jones. More the fact that from Balu's description Gustavo sounds like a fairly limited DM kind of player we rarely play with and someone who would hardly benefit us, except in some games for tactical reasons (i.e. away to Chelsea or Madrid or something) - and in that instance Jones has proved he can do a filler job to shut down a no.10 etc. Of course it is not ideal, but I think it would be better to let Jones plug in a gap on the rare chance we require his input in that role and go for a CM we need more instead of someone like Gustavo who is not as rounded.
Depends. You could argue that we might need that kind of midfielder if we want to win the champions league against the midfields currently out there. And in that role jones is a country mile behind the likes of Gustavo because he's a pretty ordinary midfielder. Our quality in possession deteriorates too with him there. Someone like Gustavo would be a huge leap for those key games.
 
If you consider how much more this team could have done if we had fixed the midfield problem when it first arose, you'll find that they didn't. A case could made for that.


I would settle for the League title whilst we fix it. :) Don't get me wrong, I did not agree with Fergie's idea for the midfield, latterly. I still long for the midfield days of Giggs, Scholes, Keane and Beckham, but that is showing my age and possibly my sentimentality.
 
Depends. You could argue that we might need that kind of midfielder if we want to win the champions league against the midfields currently out there. And in that role jones is a country mile behind the likes of Gustavo because he's a pretty ordinary midfielder. Our quality in possession deteriorates too with him there. Someone like Gustavo would be a huge leap for those key games.

Maybe. Personally don't think its worth it just to have him for those 'key' games when we could get a different midfielder who would make a more effective contribution over the other 90% of the games during the season.

I think he sounds like a similar player to Hargreaves but possibly more limited and conservative than him. Is that someone we want? I remember there seemed to be a lot of complaining about Hargreaves lack of contribution in the build up/attacking third.
 
Yes. I don't think Fellaini running at the defence has quite the same imagery for me as Ronaldo, Bale or Messi.

But, sadly, you have about £300m worth of player with those three and one of them is simply unattainable. Not really a comparison, but I hear you.
 
I wasn't comparing him to Jones. More the fact that from Balu's description Gustavo sounds like a fairly limited DM kind of player we rarely play with and someone who would hardly benefit us, except in some games for tactical reasons (i.e. away to Chelsea or Madrid or something) - and in that instance Jones has proved he can do a filler job to shut down a no.10 etc. Of course it is not ideal, but I think it would be better to let Jones plug in a gap on the rare chance we require his input in that role and go for a CM we need more instead of someone like Gustavo who is not as rounded.
Gustavo has a lot more to his game than just doing a man marking job on a brilliant midfielder. I think a top team should play his best formation against the very best in europe, not change the formation and play someone out of position to somehow have a chance to go through. If Manchester United needs someone like Jones to do a job in the biggest games, it surely makes sense to play a quality holding midfielder regularly, so that the team is used to him in the team and the manager finds a formation with a great balance between defense and attack, that works against anyone. I'm sure then the team would be even stronger in these games and increase the chance to win against City/Chelsea in the league or against the big teams in Europe. I don't know if Gustavo is the kind of player Moyes wants to have, but if the reason he doesn't want him is because against the strongest teams Jones can do a job, I'd be worried as a United supporter. That surely can't be the best way to build a team good enough to win the CL. Against 80% of the teams in the league, United should win anyway, with or without a defensive midfielder next to Carrick. Maybe there will be less 3-2 comeback wins and more 1-0 wins, but I don't think that's such a bad thing either.
 
Gustavo has a lot more to his game than just doing a man marking job on a brilliant midfielder. I think a top team should play his best formation against the very best in europe, not change the formation and play someone out of position to somehow have a chance to go through. If Manchester United needs someone like Jones to do a job in the biggest games, it surely makes sense to play a quality holding midfielder regularly, so that the team is used to him in the team and the manager finds a formation with a great balance between defense and attack, that works against anyone. I'm sure then the team would be even stronger in these games and increase the chance to win against City/Chelsea in the league or against the big teams in Europe. I don't know if Gustavo is the kind of player Moyes wants to have, but if the reason he doesn't want him is because against the strongest teams Jones can do a job, I'd be worried as a United supporter. That surely can't be the best way to build a team good enough to win the CL.
Yep. I always feel a top side shouldn't have to alter its game against the better sides. I would love to take the best sides on head on. These days we just tend to sit deep and try and hit them on the counter.
 
Maybe. Personally don't think its worth it just to have him for those 'key' games when we could get a different midfielder who would make a more effective contribution over the other 90% of the games during the season.

I think he sounds like a similar player to Hargreaves but possibly more limited and conservative than him. Is that someone we want? I remember there seemed to be a lot of complaining about Hargreaves lack of contribution in the build up/attacking third.

If we can get a player like him who doesn't have any illusions about his place in the squad - then I'd take him in an instant. We can, in theory, get on stunningly with what we have: If Cleverley takes a further step or two, becomes a more rounded midfielder and Carrick plays another blinder of season - then, yes, it's not too shabby at all. But we lack depth - immensely so compared to other areas. Even if we lose Rooney and don't replace him at all, we still have a wealth of attacking options. We could get rid of a couple of defenders and still be well stocked compared to most sides. The story is dramatically different in the middle.

My impression is that Gustavo would probably want plenty of minutes wherever he decides to go (World Cup season and all). He might get that for us, but I don't see him as a sure starter, so to speak.
 
If that stat meant anything, I'm sure Pep "I'm in love with possession" Guardiola would have found a way to use him and not put him up for sale.

Of course the stat means little just like nearly any other stat without context. The biggest reason, why Gustavo won´t have much of a future at Bayern is of strategic nature. Guardiola simply prefers a system with just one true DM/CM and Gustavo is not suited for that. For that particular role he is indeed not well rounded enough. That does not say much, because it is one of the most demanding roles in modern football and at this moment I only see Schweinsteiger really excelling there (maybe Martinez proves me wrong in the future here).

At the danger for some people jumping on me for having that opinion, I still attest Gustavo a good passing game. I know that we disagreed on this matter before, which comes in my eyes mostly down to rating his approach of passing differently. Gustavo has foremost a devensive approach. Most of his passes are indeed safety passes, taking little risks and making sure to keep possesion instead of driving the game forward with more vertical play. I know and can understand, why this approach is not the most beloved and rated one, but I still think that it can be very valuable in a lot situations. I think the best way to describe his passing is simple, but very solid.



There is actually not that much to say about Gustavo, because he is a very straight forward player. You know exactly what you get with him.

To put it simply, he is an old fashioned destroyer, having nearly exclusively defensive strengths: strong tackling, excellent anticipation and positioning, high work rate and solid passing. Apart from his occasional long range shooting he is hardly spectacular. He is the kind of player, where you really see his worth when he is not on the pitch. What he does not is, is a creative play maker. He does not have magic in his feet and constantly busts out breath taking key passes or provides the main drive of the offensive. He is at his best at giving defensive cover to a creative midfielder, so that the latter has the room to do his magic.


Now, the most important question is, if United has a big need for a player from the mold of Gustavo. Some might argue, that he would not be productive enough, which is fair enough, but looking back at the last season, I don´t think that the problem of United´s midfield was productivity. A fair amount of chances were created there from Carrick (despite shouldering most of the defensive responsibility alone) and Cleverley (decent in that regard). The biggest problem was IMO stability. The midfield was simply far too often overrun, because Carrick was left alone and had to cover a huge amount of area, which was simply not possible.

In that regard Gustavo would be worth gold. He would close gaps and spaces very effectively and provide a lot of stability. I also think, that he would not only be effective against stronger sides, where United has less possesion, but also vs. smaller counter based sides, because he is very good at playing against counters due to his strong anticipation. He has shown in the past, that he can make crucial interceptions and diffuse dangerous situations before they really occure.

In terms of offensive needs, he would need a creative partner, though. I have no doubts that Carrick could fulfill this role, if he is given enough cover and freedom to do so. I also believe, that Cleverley could grow in the role of an offensive CM, if given such solid back up on the pitch.

All in all, I think Gustavo would be a good signing, especially for that price. He is not the answer to all of United´s problems in the midfield, but would certainly answer a good amount of them.
 
At the danger for some people jumping on me for having that opinion, I still attest Gustavo a good passing game. I know that we disagreed on this matter before, which comes in my eyes mostly down to rating his approach of passing differently. Gustavo has foremost a devensive approach. Most of his passes are indeed safety passes, taking little risks and making sure to keep possesion instead of driving the game forward with more vertical play. I know and can understand, why this approach is not the most beloved and rated one, but I still think that it can be very valuable in a lot situations. I think the best way to describe his passing is simple, but very solid.
I think we disagreed more about Martinez than about Gustavo. It's more Gustavo's lack of vision and creativity that leads to him being less of an all around quality midfielder than his technical ability. I basically agree with everything you wrote and I don't think your opinion on him differs much from the post I wrote earlier today.
 
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