Television Lost: The Final Season

I just watched it again....liked it less. Noticed a ton of ridiculous plot holes and deus ex machinas and was less moved and therefore more tuned in.

It was actually far more of a cop out than I'd remembered. They fooled us with emotional reunions...nothing that happened on the Island made any sense at all.

It's gone down to a 7 in my rating. If it wasn't for the final eye shot it'd be a 6.

Now people are beginning to see what I did on the first one. I was partly "fooled" by the emotional scenes myself, but I think being a cynical bastard, I was afraid before watching and throughout that it would be like Battlestar Galactica.

And it sort of was. Not as bad, but sort of.
 
It was great I thought. Can't believe how upset some people get over Religion being the main force in the story yet don't have any problems accepting other fantasy and mythological elements that are in the show. The show was a character piece and the ending gave them all some emotional scenes to chew through.
 
But it wasn't surrealist, it was sci-fi/fantasy drama if anything.
If it was sci-fi then people do get to complain about unexplained mysteries and inconsistencies.

Things like why Jack could survive the light in the cave while we are supposed to believe MIB turned into smoke.

The problem here clearly was that they put in too much stuff to wow audiences and there is only so much deus ex machina you can throw in to tie up all the plot holes.

Interestingly Damon Liendof said he was most inspired by Lynch's Twin Peaks as a child, so I am inclined to think he tried to in-cooperate that kind of mystery. Failed massively. If they wanted they could have just left smokey as some unknown entity in the island who is killing people. That is it, but once they depicted it as a person with motives, it was paramount that they did it properly. As it is, forget about the whole series, even in season 6 itself, there seemed to be no consistency in his plan.
 
Exactly. And I seem to remember quite a few of the people who are now saying it was a great ending, who have been in the camp of "it's fine that they put so many mysteries in, if they explain them". And they didn't. The finale explained next to nothing except for a thing that really has only been an issue for a short time.

It's like they created the "alternate time-line" so they didn't have to explain anything in the end, they could just combine that with some nostalgic and emotional moments, and people would eat it up.
 
The show from the very beginning pitted the question of Faith vs Science, with Locke being a man of faith, and Jack being a man of science. Ultimately the show had to come down on one side and honestly I don't have a problem that it picked faith as science can't adequately explain everything either...at least by using faith offers latitude as it's a far more subjective concept then science which is bound by rules, theories and fact. That being said, Science did play a major role in the series and a lot of questions dealing with relativity, time and space were rooted in science.

Even if you consider the parralell universe theory... that's something which is possible and there are theories out there (super string theory, m-theory) which postulate that there could be thousands of multiverses and we could all be living different lives in them at the same time. Now, if you buy into that fantastical possibility which is offered to you by science then surely the idea of faith, god, good vs evil isn't too hard to swallow either.

As an atheist myself I think the show struck a good balance between investigating both the science and faith theories. Ultimately it picked faith, but at no point did I feel they were ramming the idea of god down my throat.
I also think they picked Faith because it's easy to understand on a personal level. If they had gone into hardcore physics to explain parallel universes and time travel you'd get just as many people saying that the writers were using hokey science to answer difficult questions. Bottom line is either choice would have had its critics.

That being said for me, even the science vs faith debate there are some similarities. Science points to there being equal and opposite forces at work in the universe. Matter and anti-matter, energy and dark energy, positron and electron. So the MIB and Jacob to me were just that, particles with diametrically opposite purposes which had to co-exist in the same world.
There are different aspects to it.

Their cop-out to not answering many questions has always been that we as humans do not know many answers to life big mysteries so they wanted to replicate that. That does make sense if they play it properly. Then they went ahead and said in definite terms that there is an after life, which is one of the biggest questions for mankind.

The other even bigger aspect is characterization of people who make decisions rationally and those who do on blind faith. Mockney touched on this better than me regrading Across the Sea. Where it made no sense how MIB was supposed to come out as worse than Jacob when he was more inquisitive than him and just wanted to leave the island. Even after that they never clarified if him leaving the island would have resulted in something bad or not.

They killed of the balance of good and evil by the end as well since smokey was dead by the end. Only Hurley was left with no one opposite him.
 
They killed of the balance of good and evil by the end as well since smokey was dead by the end. Only Hurley was left with no one opposite him.

WAS Smoky dead at the end? Or with Locke being killed off whilst the plug was out ,did this mean that the smoky was banished back into the cave of light and stuck there again when jack put the plug back in? Did they actually state Smoky was dead?
 
WAS Smoky dead at the end? Or with Locke being killed off whilst the plug was out ,did this mean that the smoky was banished back into the cave of light and stuck there again when jack put the plug back in? Did they actually state Smoky was dead?
Creators made it clear in the interviews that Locke was Smokey, they were not separate entities. Also confirmed by the fact that there we saw MIB's body.

I have to only go by what they show us or at least hint towards, I can not start imagining things myself.
 
Ultimately it picked faith, but at no point did I feel they were ramming the idea of god down my throat.

Really?

Cos I felt religion was being rammed down my throat with a pitch fork.

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Hey look dummies...religion!
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Hey...Hey...RELIGION
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The other series which ended similarly which we shall not name went the much better (dare I say, more british route) by making no allusions to particular religions or theology at all...simply, faith and afterlife. Here we have faith in specific things, overwhelmingly Christianity.

And again, it's not really the finale, it's more the fact that EVERYTHING was answered sweepingly by faith. Why were they brought there? On the faith of someone. What is it that would happen if they weren't? Dunno, Take it on faith it's what this man says....Does it matter that Jacob brought people like Illana there to just basically die? No, because religion will save them in the end and that's all that mattered.

As drama and TV entertainment went it was great (in bits)...as answers and story went it was pants with a capital Y at the front.


Hey, come to think of it...Why didn't Jack or Desmond become the smoke monster, or a fate worse than death or...any of that shit when they went into the cave?...

Doesn't matter...none of the shit about the island actually matters anymore, none of the stuff we've been caring about for 6 years matters or needs to make any sense because Christian Shephard took them all to heaven....

Seriously?

The more I watch it, the more I'm convinced I've been hoodwinked. The only thing that was resolved or made to make any sense was the thing they introduced at the very beginning of this season. Bit cheap that. And everyone's forgotten cos it's nice some old faces were back and we had a little cry. Hmmm
 
From about half-way through the episode I was getting the sinking feeling that everyone (or many of them) would turn out to be angels, or something like that.

The actual ending wasn't quite that bad, but it was bad enough.
 
I was quite confident that they could not not top BSG in terms of ruining the entire series.

@ Mockney

Desmond not turning into Smokes can be explained by him being "special".

Jack I dunno.
 
One thing thats been on my mind this morning is how did they all create a purgatory for themselves? Are they suggesting it was the bomb? Or are they suggesting its something we all create subconciously?
 
The bomb did nothing to them...It was "The incident", nothing more, that was actually an answer of sorts.

Purgatory was something they made subconsiously after they died yes...I assume. They all wished it into existence...or something. It had nothing to do with any of the other seasons or actions, it was just there.
 
Latter

They said we have multiple soul mates. The mechanics of Sideways being a purgatory does not make any sense at all. Why were likes of Keamy there? Was it his purgatory as well? Or he was just manifestation of survivors? Infact why was Keamy not stuck in island like Michael. H
 
I'm assuming it began for all of them on Oceanic...so basically when Boone died, he went straight onto the plane (or the other plane of existence...aaahhh) but with magic memories of another life he hadn't actually lived. Then when Jack died, he went there...

Essentially if you were to cut it all together in sequence (which I'm sure someone will do, and which I'd quite like them too actually, just to watch all the Island stuff in sequence to see how much they really did drop the ball on it - or not - I probably wouldn't watch it tbh) Then it'd go ..

Jack Dying -> Waking up on the plane. Last shot of S6 -> First shot of S6

And the same for everyone else who died, when they died.

Ya get me blud?

EDIT: And no, a lot of it didn't make sense regarding who went where...Anna Lucia should've probably been stuck with Michael too, since she killed Shannon. But meh, none of that needed answering crappy....we've established that now. None of the island shit was really of any importance.
 
There are different aspects to it.

Their cop-out to not answering many questions has always been that we as humans do not know many answers to life big mysteries so they wanted to replicate that. That does make sense if they play it properly. Then they went ahead and said in definite terms that there is an after life, which is one of the biggest questions for mankind.

The other even bigger aspect is characterization of people who make decisions rationally and those who do on blind faith. Mockney touched on this better than me regrading Across the Sea. Where it made no sense how MIB was supposed to come out as worse than Jacob when he was more inquisitive than him and just wanted to leave the island. Even after that they never clarified if him leaving the island would have resulted in something bad or not.

They killed of the balance of good and evil by the end as well since smokey was dead by the end. Only Hurley was left with no one opposite him.

I don't think Smokey is dead. Just like Jacob wasn't dead when Ben killed him. Smoke might not inhabit a human body anymore, but when he does find a suitable candidate I'm sure he will pass on his powers just like Jacob was able to do with Jack, and Jack was able to do with Hurley.

At the end, Ben even says to Hurley that he was a great #1. To me that implies that Hurley was able to do the one thing he hadn't been able to do througout the course of his time on Lost...and that was become a leader.

Of course we don't see that aspect of him, but there seems to be a suggestion that Hurley and Ben were a good team and they were able to protect the island.

The writers provide plenty of clues that Jacob and MIB weren't the first to have the powers, and they certainly won't be the last. The battle of good vs evil is eternal and though the faces and characters of those involved change the struggle itself does not.
 
They didn't really imply that at all...it was very rushed and ill thought through IMO. They could have ended it with Ben becoming smokey and Hurley Jacob...which would have made it implicitly clear that Good vs Evil battle will and has lasted forever...which would've made sense

But they didn't do that...they copped out and went for a cheesy love fest...thus making the Island story as a whole a rather damp squib. Essentially, the afterlife was all that mattered. And as crappy said, for a show that wanted to play life and say "we don't get answers in real life" answering that was bullshit....it's almost them foisting their spiritual views on the audience. Which is rather tasteless.
 
One thing thats been on my mind this morning is how did they all create a purgatory for themselves? Are they suggesting it was the bomb? Or are they suggesting its something we all create subconciously?

No.

Micheal tells Hurley something to the effect that he can't leave the island...that he's trapped there with all the other lost souls. Only the good souls (for lack of a better word) are able to transition into this sideways universe.

I'm not sure it's purgatory either. It's just an alternative reality, where they get a second chance at being who they want to be. Some follow the same tragic path like Charlie, because the feel they are missing some important link to their past. Others like Sawyer are able to do a complete 180...in which he's a cop, instead of being a con man. Point is, they have a chance to re live their lives as they want, yet they are still connected as survivors of flight 815, and in some way they are all still trying to reconnect.
 
I don't think Smokey is dead. Just like Jacob wasn't dead when Ben killed him. Smoke might not inhabit a human body anymore, but when he does find a suitable candidate I'm sure he will pass on his powers just like Jacob was able to do with Jack, and Jack was able to do with Hurley.

At the end, Ben even says to Hurley that he was a great #1. To me that implies that Hurley was able to do the one thing he hadn't been able to do througout the course of his time on Lost...and that was become a leader.

Of course we don't see that aspect of him, but there seems to be a suggestion that Hurley and Ben were a good team and they were able to protect the island.

The writers provide plenty of clues that Jacob and MIB weren't the first to have the powers, and they certainly won't be the last. The battle of good vs evil is eternal and though the faces and characters of those involved change the struggle itself does not.

Jacob was given his powers by his predecessor, MIB was given his powers by... I don't know.. dying? Magic? Either way, while I got the impression there had been a lot of "Jacob's", I think Smokey was a one-off.
 
They didn't really imply that at all...it was very rushed and ill thought through IMO. They could have ended it with Ben becoming smokey and Hurley Jacob...which would have made it implicitly clear that Good vs Evil battle will and has lasted forever...which would've made sense

But they didn't do that...they copped out and went for a cheesy love fest...thus making the Island story as a whole a rather damp squib. Essentially, the afterlife was all that mattered. And as crappy said, for a show that wanted to play life and say "we don't get answers in real life" answering that was bullshit....it's almost them foisting their spiritual views on the audience. Which is rather tasteless.

I think the writers wanted most of the characters to find redemption, and to be honest that's how lost has been from the very start with most of the major characters...

Charlie found salvation. Echo did as well. It was only the really minor characters like Paulo and his girlfriend that died without finding peace. I mean, sure, they could have ended on a dark note, but this is a network show, you could see the happy feel good ending coming a mile away.
 
Refresh my memory someone, what was the actual 'Incident' in the first place?

It was mentioned as the thing that created the need for the hatch and the button in S2...then in S5 they basically showed us it was actually our characters fulfilling history by blowing up the bomb. The flash from that to the afterlife was a misdirection.

I'm fairly happy with that answer....even though we obviously never got to see what actually happened in the 70s after the implosion/explosion/whatever.
 
Was anyone else a little bit... surprised, that Ben was supposed to be one of the good guys, in the end? That's sort of the way they portrayed him. What good has he done? Almost from the start of Lost to the finish, he was busy making life difficult for our "heroes", killing people, kidnapping people, threatening to kill people, generally being a pain in the ass. Generally a lot of killing. Killing Locke. Killing Jacob. Kill kill kill.

And in the end he killed Whitmore. Because... uh... he felt like it. Even though Whitmore was apparently there on Jacob's business.

It was all just a bit weird to me. I never liked Ben.
 
I think the writers wanted most of the characters to find redemption, and to be honest that's how lost has been from the very start with most of the major characters...

Charlie found salvation. Echo did as well. It was only the really minor characters like Paulo and his girlfriend that died without finding peace. I mean, sure, they could have ended on a dark note, but this is a network show, you could see the happy feel good ending coming a mile away.

I don't get your point?

They could still have had the cheesy church scene, but without Ben and have him become smokey on the island. That would've implied the struggle had been an eternal one. As it happened, no such thing was implied ever. It was simply Two blokes with monotone dress sense played a very long and needlessly complicated game for centuries before they both died without understanding completely what for and took loads of innocent people down with them.

The Island story was a mess by the end because they'd stopped caring about people finding redemption on it, or making it into a cohesive real world epic plot, and concentrated on the fact that "hey, it doesn't matter, we all get to have fun in the after life"..lets just get to the point where Jack can die and we can concentrate on that.

That was the cop out, not them being reunited in the FS specifically. Just the overriding fact that they'd sacrificed the Island story completely for some quasi-religious bollocks by the end.
 
I don't think Smokey is dead. Just like Jacob wasn't dead when Ben killed him. Smoke might not inhabit a human body anymore, but when he does find a suitable candidate I'm sure he will pass on his powers just like Jacob was able to do with Jack, and Jack was able to do with Hurley.

At the end, Ben even says to Hurley that he was a great #1. To me that implies that Hurley was able to do the one thing he hadn't been able to do througout the course of his time on Lost...and that was become a leader.

Of course we don't see that aspect of him, but there seems to be a suggestion that Hurley and Ben were a good team and they were able to protect the island.

The writers provide plenty of clues that Jacob and MIB weren't the first to have the powers, and they certainly won't be the last. The battle of good vs evil is eternal and though the faces and characters of those involved change the struggle itself does not.


It was heavily implied that the mother was actually playing both roles of smoke monster and protector. Otherwise her killing those people and filling the well can not be explained.

There is so many holes regarding the smoke monster that you can imagine whatever you want. That is what people do not get. Sci-fi or even a Lynch mystery is not about just showing random stuff and letting people draw up the rest. As I said before there is a method to the madness.
 
Was anyone else a little bit... surprised, that Ben was supposed to be one of the good guys, in the end? That's sort of the way they portrayed him. What good has he done? Almost from the start of Lost to the finish, he was busy making life difficult for our "heroes", killing people, kidnapping people, threatening to kill people, generally being a pain in the ass. Generally a lot of killing. Killing Locke. Killing Jacob. Kill kill kill.

And in the end he killed Whitmore. Because... uh... he felt like it. Even though Whitmore was apparently there on Jacob's business.

It was all just a bit weird to me. I never liked Ben.
It was hinted by the writers than Wildmore was lying about the Jacob part. You are supposed to guess that.
 
I think the writers wanted most of the characters to find redemption, and to be honest that's how lost has been from the very start with most of the major characters...

Charlie found salvation. Echo did as well. It was only the really minor characters like Paulo and his girlfriend that died without finding peace. I mean, sure, they could have ended on a dark note, but this is a network show, you could see the happy feel good ending coming a mile away.
If they wanted a pure character piece they should not have tried stunts like moving the island in time.

After that people will want some pay off on such stuff. Even if you do not want to explain its mechanics, you have to show some consistency.

As it is with regards to time travel in S5. No one knows why-

* Survivors were flashing through time, others were not

* Why Cindy and kids did not flash through time

* Claire? Did she flash through as well? I don't think she did. Why?

* Why did the freighter folks flash with survivors?

* Why Jack and co. ended up in 73. Why Sun did not?

* How did the nuke just flash them back? Infact why did not the fecking nuke kill them!

Now these are plot holes just with one aspect of the show. Another 10 crop up with another. There are just too many of these about to be clocked off as magic.
 
It was mentioned as the thing that created the need for the hatch and the button in S2...then in S5 they basically showed us it was actually our characters fulfilling history by blowing up the bomb. The flash from that to the afterlife was a misdirection.

I'm fairly happy with that answer....even though we obviously never got to see what actually happened in the 70s after the implosion/explosion/whatever.

That's it. Now I remember.

Thanks.

Incidentally I've begun re-watching Lost on the daily commute.

http://www.warez-bb.org/viewtopic.php?t=1749203&highlight=
 
A day afterwards for me now and I still enjoyed thoroughly enjoyed it. It all makes sense and the FS is being over analysed by some people. The Island storyline was finished and it should be seen as a seperate entity. Yes they didn't fully answer all the questions but the fact that people are getting upset by the religous aspects is actually quite amusing now.
 
It really doesn't all make sense gambit does it?...unless you're happy with "magic and god" being the answer to everything.

We got into this show because of the Island story which was basically left to become a large deus ex machina to enable some ending where Jack died so we could focus on the last season of purgatory. Seasons 2, 3, 4 and 5 are now almost completely pointless. The Island is pointless, despite it being the main character of the show.
 
Is it possible for a show to build up intriguing mysteries and not have to resort to religion to answer them all?

That's two of my favourite shows going down the religion route.
 
That isn't really the problem though...

Something like

Spoiler for another show:
Ashes 2 Ashes/Life on Mars

For example, being about the afterlife or religion is fine because it was always set up as a crazy world separate from our own.

If the Island itself had been purgatory, as many people guessed to begin with, then that would've actually been an answer and fairly satisfactory.

the problem with this is that it wasn't...they basically jetisonned the Island and any lingering questions about what it was or what it did or why, (or fobbed us off with mystic gobbeldygook) and just introduced another world and told us "hey, hey, don't worry about that, look over here...THIS is purgatory..isn't that cool?"

Well, no. Because that isn't a world we were interested in until this season. it's misdirection and a cop out because it doesn't tie in to anything about the previous 5 seasons...whereas at least in the show I've put in spoilers, they answered the big question about what it all was....here they answered the question about what something else was....and left the Island as...er....completely unimportant.

That's a cop out. Even though I did enjoy the finale as an episode.
 
What was it?

That's a cop out too...telling me I should just be happy about it and if I'm unhappy, I'm wrong.

I'm not pissed off about the religious crap really, they could've kept all that...I guessed around the 3rd or 4th episode of this season that the Flash Sideways was probably a way to say goodbye and/or show us the complete happy resolution of our characters lives AFTER the Island stuff, without having to do an episode about "what happened after they left" thing....So that's all fine, you can keep your religious crap, as long as they'd used the episodes detailing the on island stuff - which for the whole season was rather slow and underwhelming - to answer stuff about the actual show.

Across the Sea being the perfect point when they could have...but didn't. They went with Magic Light and doing what you're told and being independant and inquisitive is wrong. Don't ask questions. That's what I'm fecked off about. And you would be too if you'd known that back in Season 2

As I've said numerous times, it's not the finale I'm particularly fecked off about. They dropped the ball on the Island and didn't know what to do, so they just went "feck it...lets just end it with Jack die having to save it somehow and try and get everyone to care so much about reunions they forget why they watched the show for 6 years"

That IS a cop out.
 
You're completely right, Mockney. While I wasn't too sure what I felt about it right after it aired, the more I think about it the more I'm very disappointed. You're also making a point that I've mentioned once before, that in the end the Island took back-seat to a thing ("alternate time-line") that had only existed for a short time). Almost nothing in the finale had any relevance to most of the seasons.

The only thing I can think about is the obvious Jacob/new Jacob/Smokey thing, and the way they resolved that was pretty much by being as obtuse as possible, relying on deus ex machina. I'm not sure they could have actually explained less.

Oh, there's a light in the island. Hey, Desmond took a giant prop out. Now Smokey can be killed. Smokey is killed. Jack puts the prop back in. Hurley is the new Jacob.