I'm really not sure what your point is. Mine is United 366million (LvG & Moyes) on a team that won the league vs. Liverpool ca. 200m (can't be arsed looking for the exact figure) over roughly the past 3 years. So you would expect to see a difference wouldn't you.
Liverpool : General discussion
- Thread starter Yorkeontop
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Christ that post is so wrong (due to bias - but it's you so what can we expect, certainly not a fair appraisal) it's really not even worth my time listing his transfer successes. And you really really didn't pay any attention whatsoever to the second paragraph, the first seemed to excite you so much.
Our defence and midfield are arguably best in the league. Attack is shortcoming but we manage and have got arguably the best youngster in the world. That's a difference compared to the squad we had when Moyes left.
Whereas your keeper is still dodgy, defence is decent at best, midfield is average and your best attacker is always injured and others are highly inconsistent. That's even after spending about 170-180 mill on a squad that came second.
By the same criteria you'd really expect Liverpool to be better than teams like Crystal Palace, West Ham, Everton and Southampton.
Nope, not bias at all. I bet I can find plenty of Liverpool fans who agree with most of that. In fact I know I can outside the Rodgers PR bubble that is the Liverpool fans on RedCafe.
Have a look for yourself - http://www.lfchistory.net/Transfers/ByManager/25-1
32 players signed. Only Coutinho and Sturridge have proven themselves as top quality signings who have delivered. And one of those is a perma-crock, the other very inconsistent. Sure, you could argue the toss about one or two others, but it would be very difficult to convincingly argue they're in the same bracket.
The success rate is very poor. The fact you can't argue the point speaks volumes.
I would argue that Rodgers was never in the market for too many top tier players because Liverpool had fallen from their top tier status prior to his arrival. In the 50 odd years that I've been following Liverpool I've always been used to us being a major pull for the better players. That's certainly not the case now, & not even you could disagree with that. The modern-day elite footballers are generally motivated by the chances of success, money, & location. We can't really offer anything better than the likes of United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, et al. Alexis Sanchez is a prime example. He'd have been an excellent replacement for Suarez, & probably could have helped us at least put in a regular challenge for a top 4 spot. As it is he chose Arsenal. & who can blame him.
You even admitted it yourself that Rodgers was unlucky in being the manager who saw 2 legends (Gerrard & Carragher) have to eventually retire from the PL. Add to that Suarez & Sterling, 2 lads who decided they could do better elsewhere. So it's all very well saying he should have done better in the transfer market, but he was never really in the same ball-park as other clubs/managers when it came to attracting the top talent. Jurgen Klopp's name & record in Germany might help us in future transfer dealings. Failing that I can only foresee an annual challenge for a Europa League place irrespective of who the manager is, or how much he's got to spend.
Lets's wait until the season ends shall we ? You know, marathon not a sprint !
So instead of talking about history you now want to live in the future. Do any Liverpool fans live in the present? lol
You have to take your chances when they come around. If Chelsea continue to be poor and don't make the top 4 it will be huge opportunity for Liverpool or Spurs. Liverpool won't have many excuses if they can't finish ahead of Spurs.
The criticism is not that they didn't buy top class players. It's that they spent big money on players who ended up not being good enough or not fit enough. He bought lovren and lallana for £45m and now they seem out of depth at Liverpool. Even young supposed gems like Can and Markovic look out of depth at Liverpool. Even the 'flop' signings performed statistically with falcao contributing 9 goals and Di Maria about 15. Rodgers didn't get the best out of most of his own signings. There is nothing unlucky about him.
Not sure what's confusing you there. By Rafateria's criteria that quality is just based on spending Liverpool 'should' be better than the teams mentioned but I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that they are.
Any argument that suggests Rodgers did the best he could under the circumstances is also completely false.
I'm not going to argue Liverpool aren't a second tier club, you are, but you're a second tier club that has spent close to or on par with most top tier clubs (a lot more in some cases).
Hence my argument that I struggle to think of a club that has wasted as much money, whether we're talking 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. It would be an interesting debate. You're certainly in the Champions League places of that particular table, if not the champions. Newcastle as well. Probably even Spurs who have spent heavily for little net gain in terms of CL football or trophies. We could bring in some European clubs for context.
The absence of so-called "top tier" signings is not an excuse for Liverpool problems. The fact is that your scouting and player recruitment and development policy has been poor.
How else do you explain the fact that Spurs - with a significantly lower income than Liverpool and a much lower net spend on transfers - have finished above you in 5 of the last 6 season?
How did Spurs (rather than Liverpool) sign Lloris, a much better GK than Mignolet? Why did Liverpool sign Lovren, whilst Spurs sign the superior Alderweireld for much less money? How did Spurs sign Dier and Alli for a combined £9m, whilst Liverpool spent more than that on Can? How can Spurs current best XI have cost far less than that of Liverpool's, yet stand a good chance of finishing above Liverpool again this season?
This is a fair point. Liverpool really need consistent CL football to change that. One year is not going to be enough, as that Suarez window showed. You might be able to sneak top 4 this season if Chelsea continue to flail and Spurs do a Spurs, but who are you going to displace long term? City, Chelsea and United are always going to be able to spend their way back into the top 4 even if they fall out. I think Liverpool's best bet is hoping Klopp outlasts Wenger and Arsenal make a hash of his replacement like we did.
They have got excuses.
An utterly shite defence and a permacrock as their star striker with the replacements a bit of a misfiring squad. And you can lay the lot at Brentan's door.
We are having trouble up front, no question, but are getting by because the defence is so good. To do well in the premier league you need to outscore everyone all the time (liverpool with gnasher, to an extent us in Fergie's last year), or be incredibly difficult to score against and rely on taking one opportunity a game (the first Wenger Arsenal, us in the year Cantona returned from suspension).
You cant do any good with utter shite at the back and a set of strikers that fire more blanks than an olympic starter pistol up front.
Over the long term I pretty much agree with you. We have wasted a huge amount of money. But my initial post on this was more concerned with the players bought under Rodgers & LvG+Moyes and in that regard I'd strongly dispute calling it abysmal. It should be noted I'm not a Rodgers apologist and was more than happy to see him go, he had been given more than a fair chance (though the timing of his departure was off).
As far as Rodgers goes let's concentrate on players of over 10M and up because realistically anyone under that (talking PL not the rest of Europe) in this day and age is either a gamble or bought solely as a squad player. We can also exclude Loan players (4 on that list) who by their nature are generally squad fillers (although when we are talking about players such as Falcao costing ca. 12-15M in salary alone that is a slightly different matter) and there are 3 Free transfers on that list.
1) Complete gambles or squad fillers (by being under 5M) - all top teams frequently buy players of this ilk and keep them in the youth or reserve teams hoping they will make the step up : 5 players inc. Ings who may end up costing anywhere from 4-7M. In this bracket we either got our money back, made a profit or the player ended up being worth the money and gamble. So nothing abysmal there.
2) Players on the cheap but still a gamble (by being 5M+ to -10M) : 7 players (this includes Coutinho, Gomez, Origi & Mignolet, so either value for money or promising youngsters). 3 others that we lost a little on but not a lot, otherwise the money could and should have been better spent. But again nothing abysmal, or even poor, there.
3) Total Waste of time & money : Borini (10.5), Balotelli (16), Allen (15), Lovren (20m). Yep, abysmal.
4) Qualified or Unqualified successes costing over 10M (6 players) : Sturridge (12m), Sakho (18m), Can (9.75 - a youngster for the future, there's no way we could fail to at the very least get our money back if we decided to sell at any time), Lallana (25m - we clearly considerably overpaid but regardless is a regular and under Klopp could become a much larger contributor and can not be considered a failure as a player). Moreno (12M - a young and improving player), Clyne (12.5M and arguably our Player of the Season so far). Actually on balance pretty damn good.
5) Jury's still out due to new arrival, settling in, Rodgers Out/Klopp In and simply far too few games played : Benteke (32m) and Firmino (29m). Both big successes at their previous clubs so no reason why they shouldn't replicate that. Markovic (19.8m), represents a major gamble on a very highly rated youngster. We'll see what happens when Klopp gets his hands on him since Rodgers perpetually played him out of position.
It should be remembered that 3 years ago we had a small squad and had to enlarge it, however some squad players, I think it is fair to say, played more often, due to injuries to key players (Liverpool having consistency been close to the top of most playing days lost to injuries over the past few years, and we're bang at the top of that injury table again this season), than would have been expected when we bought them as squad fillers.
Therefore looking at the above did we actually waste money ? Well undoubtedly there are some key failures but there are also successes (outstanding are Coutinho at 7M and Sturbridge at 12M) to go along with those notable failures. However is that different to any other manager and in this instance I was specifically mentioning LvG and Moyes : De Maria at 60M, Fellaini at 29m, has Depay looked even just likely to live up to his 25m fee yet, Martial was a huge panic buy due to the failure to secure Muller or another top striker and we have to see how he gets on over a full season (great start though), Romero, Valdes (Free), Jones - arguments could be made against all of those three, even (much as I really like them) Schneiderlin & Schweinsteiger have not lived up to their form at their previous clubs yet, being used so defensively by LvG and also is Herrera worth 29M ? That may be arguable under LvG this season who doesn't seem to like/play him as much as I thought he deserves to play.
It's difficult to say categorically that Rodgers wasted our money with at least 10 players being qualified successes or better, others sold for a profit and others living up to the (small) fee paid for them. And therein lies the crux of the matter, I've said before that, although 3 years ago we needed to enlarge the squad, I'd have preferred we did it by spending well on 2-3 1st team players per season and stacking the rest of the squad places with youngsters from the reserves, rather than spending 20-25m on cheap gambles but that's still petty change in terms of our 3 years' budget. The real waste was 60m+ on 4 players that contributed very little and in overpaying for Lallana, Lovren, Allen & Balotelli (though it's something United, Chelsea, Spurs and City also do regularly, with the PL Tax).
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Yeah. That is certainly true this season. We need to finish Top 4 regardless of Rodgers efforts. Although we will more than likely lose to City that would then mean we have played City (TBD), United (L), Chelsea (W), Spurs (D), Everton (D) & Arsenal (D) all away from home in the first 12/13 matches of the season. I expect us to have a much better second half of the season despite our current horrific injury list.
LIVERPOOL XI: George, Alexander-Arnold, Toure, Lovren, Moreno, Lucas, Allan, Teixeira, Coutinho, Firmino, Sinclair. Subs used: Woodburn, Ojo, Dunn, Whelan, Ejaria, Canos, Kane.
Beat Wolves 3-2 behind closed doors yesterday. Coutinho (x2) and Firmino our scorers.
Beat Wolves 3-2 behind closed doors yesterday. Coutinho (x2) and Firmino our scorers.
That's what Brendan Rodgers said though.
So Depay looks unlikely to show his £25m fee( it's actually £20m - http://www.voetbalprimeur.nl/mobile...ver-transfersom-depay-was-het-maar-waar-.html) but firmino is seen as a player who will surely replicate his past success? And clyne is seen as a good signing because he has been your best player so far as against Bastian and Morgan (both of whom have been stellar especially for the last one month) are not? Bastian especially has been playing all over the pitch lately. Fellaini is no different to lallana and in fact actually improved a lot last season and was a nuisance in most games for opponents as against the will-hopefully-improve tag for lallana so not sure how can you call one a failure and not the other? martial is a panic buy so he can't be called a success? Even though we could buy only after Monaco were eliminated from playoff? Herrera had a buy out clause. Nothing could be done. Bilbao never negotiates and Herrera has been one of our best players over the last 2 seasons anyways so I don't think it's a waste of money. Both Valdes and Romero are free signings. Valdes was a gamble and as it cost nothing( Monaco paid his wages) it can't be a failure and Romero has already kept 3 clean sheets in 4 league games and while he isn't a top level keeper, he is an able second choice and definitely not a flop. If he is by that logic bogdan would also be the same. I don't know who you meant to write when you wrote Jones. Phil Jones was bought by SAF and Brad Jones was signed by kenny?
Di Maria is the only failure (falcao was a loan). Even though we lost £15m we got 11 assists out of him in the league. His best had been 17 in his third season at RM (in an attack that had bale benzema and Ronaldo) so not a bad return even though he was hardly playing in 2015 and it was his first season.
Herrera's a better player than anyone Liverpool CM - he showed that last season when he embarrassed Henderson and co at Anfield. He's still probably only the 3rd best midfielder at the club.
@prath92 try breaking that wall of text please?
Markovic is pending and Depay is a failure despite already being statistically better and only at the club for 3 months.
Agenda posting doesn't get any better than that.
And if going by the logic of not losing money = not a failure then Di Maria isn't one since his contribution, albeit not singlehandedly, got us 4th place ~ £35-40m in TV money. More than offset the loss of his sale. Thankfully no one thinks like that.
The only thing irrelevant when it comes to transfer is whether the businesses done improve the playing squad and meet the objectives set out by the club. Rodgers spunked more than £200m and left Pool with a squad largely unchanged in quality and the team in the same place when he got in, one can even say arguably worse. LvG spent £300m and already took the team from 7th to 4th, and now with a third of the season gone 2 pts off top. But yeah, they are the same, just because.
Agenda posting doesn't get any better than that.
And if going by the logic of not losing money = not a failure then Di Maria isn't one since his contribution, albeit not singlehandedly, got us 4th place ~ £35-40m in TV money. More than offset the loss of his sale. Thankfully no one thinks like that.
The only thing irrelevant when it comes to transfer is whether the businesses done improve the playing squad and meet the objectives set out by the club. Rodgers spunked more than £200m and left Pool with a squad largely unchanged in quality and the team in the same place when he got in, one can even say arguably worse. LvG spent £300m and already took the team from 7th to 4th, and now with a third of the season gone 2 pts off top. But yeah, they are the same, just because.
This war and piece effort is so full of wrongness, contradictions and double standards it almost reads like a parody. A clear example of where quantity of post certainly doesn't equate to quality. You start out by claiming not to be a Rodgers apologist (lol), then go on to write 10 paragraphs stretching truth and logic to defend his shit transfer record. Guess what you are.
Too many holes to pick through but a few that jump out.
First and foremost, judging players like Can, Lallana, Sakho and Moreno as successes ranges from generous in the extreme to outright delusion. That is a distinctly average set of players who have proved very little so far. If we're calling those guys successes, then practically all of United's signings of the last 5 years have been successes. However, not even the most delusional of United fans would argue that.
Those players fall within the Fellaini bracket (some not even that), who you have judged as a failure. Fair enough, many would say you're being harsh on Fellaini but let's go with it, let's call him a failure. Same rules apply. If he's a failure, so are they.
The rest of your post is just a desperate effort to justify poor signings and why they haven't or aren't working out.
I like how freebies and players under £10m get an exemption in the Liverpool analysis, but Romero (free), Valdes (free) and Schweinsteiger (best £6.5m ever) are sticks used to beat United/LvG. You wish you'd signed Bastian Schweinsteiger for £6.5m. Likewise, you wish you'd bought Southampton's best player (Schneiderlin) rather than the shite you did buy from them. Let's not be silly.
A few more of my favourite lines:
The random mention of Phil Jones, signed by Ferguson in 2011. Surprised you didn't start bringing up Veron and Forlan - what were Van Gaal and Moyes thinking there?
This line about Benteke and Firmino: "Both big successes at their previous clubs so no reason why they shouldn't replicate that."
Yep it always works out like that. Especially at Liverpool...
There's various other nonsense in there but giving someone like Markovic a free pass, whilst trying to cast doubt over a solid performer like Herrera and the hugely impressive Anthony Martial... well, I don't even know what to do with that.
Bloody hell.
You can't - on the one hand - agree that Liverpool are now a 2nd tier club, & on the other hand, claim that there is no direct correlation between our status & our inability to attract top players. It's as plain as the nose on your face. The money we spend is irrelevant when you factor in the obvious fact that we're not in the market for the same type of players that are looked at by Chelsea, City, United, Bayern, Real, Barca etc. Not forgetting also that a fair chunk of that money came from the reluctant sales of Suarez & Sterling. Simply saying that Rodgers has spent over £300 million doesn't really tell the full story does it ? The time was always going to come when a manager was going to have the unenviable task of having to replace 2 players - Gerrard & Carragher - that pretty much carried the club for almost 15 years. To lose them, & 2 high calibre players in Suarez & Sterling, all within a space of 3 years, & not be in a position to sign like-for-like replacements. I'd love to know how you think Brendan Rodgers could/should have done better (especially) considering Sturridge's injury problems. It's a bit glib just to say he should have done better in the transfer market. The odds were stacked heavily against the bloke pretty much from the day he took over. Yet despite this he got us closer than any previous Liverpool manager to our first title in almost a quarter of a century.
I'd say both our respective clubs are at a similar level, although I reckon a fully fit Sturridge for the rest of the season would probably just edge it in our favour. We can argue the toss over signings, but the point remains the same : Both of our clubs are only in the market for players that the bigger/richer clubs are not interested in. & if we do get lucky by unearthing a gem - Modric, Bale, Suarez, Sterling - chances are one of those aforementioned clubs will eventually come along & take them off our hands. Thus ensuring they remain at the top table, & we remain 2nd tier.
Ha ha - what a joke of a riposte based on just cheap shots ignoring what was posted.This war and piece effort is so full of wrongness, contradictions and double standards it almost reads like a parody. A clear example of where quantity of post certainly doesn't equate to quality. You start out by claiming not to be a Rodgers apologist (lol), then go on to write 10 paragraphs stretching truth and logic to defend his shit transfer record. Guess what you are.
Too many holes to pick through but a few that jump out.
First and foremost, judging players like Can, Lallana, Sakho and Moreno as successes ranges from generous in the extreme to outright delusion. That is a distinctly average set of players who have proved very little so far. If we're calling those guys successes, then practically all of United's signings of the last 5 years have been successes. However, not even the most delusional of United fans would argue that.
Those players fall within the Fellaini bracket (some not even that), who you have judged as a failure. Fair enough, many would say you're being harsh on Fellaini but let's go with it, let's call him a failure. Same rules apply. If he's a failure, so are they.
The rest of your post is just a desperate effort to justify poor signings and why they haven't or aren't working out.
I like how freebies and players under £10m get an exemption in the Liverpool analysis, but Romero (free), Valdes (free) and Schweinsteiger (best £6.5m ever) are sticks used to beat United/LvG. You wish you'd signed Bastian Schweinsteiger for £6.5m. Likewise, you wish you'd bought Southampton's best player (Schneiderlin) rather than the shite you did buy from them. Let's not be silly.
A few more of my favourite lines:
The random mention of Phil Jones, signed by Ferguson in 2011. Surprised you didn't start bringing up Veron and Forlan - what were Van Gaal and Moyes thinking there?
This line about Benteke and Firmino: "Both big successes at their previous clubs so no reason why they shouldn't replicate that."
Yep it always works out like that. Especially at Liverpool...
There's various other nonsense in there but giving someone like Markovic a free pass, whilst trying to cast doubt over a solid performer like Herrera and the hugely impressive Anthony Martial... well, I don't even know what to do with that.
Bloody hell.
Let's forget I said qualified or unqualified (Can, Lallana) shall we. And also ignore I said for the money paid (for some of the players). Benteke & Firmino - you are a drowning man flailing with that effort. Freebies & Loans - you used them in your effort to denigrate so it's unfair of me to reply likewise ? Oh boo hoo. Poor the Kraftwerker.
Let's not even mention that Sakho has been brilliant this season (and was also very good at PSG, their youngest ever captain) and has the stats and plaudits to prove it. It's OK to keep your blindfold on if it makes you feel better.
Do I wish we had bought Schneiderlin & Schweinsteiger ? Absolutely, you bet your bottom dollar I do ... but then I didn't say they were failures I said LvG wasn't getting the best out of them playing them in such a defensive manner.
Herrera and Markovic ? Again one I said I liked and rated but still wonder if 29M was over-paying, probably it was, and the other is highly rated by many yet had been misused by Rodgers but is still very young. Is any of that incorrect ? I doubt it but then you are desperate to get in a response, any response.
Martial has played no more than a dozen matches and yet (and I did give him credit and have done so before on RC, he looks great so far) how many before have flattered to deceive in such a short period of time. He has a massive fee to live up to. I wonder where that will rate in 2 years time.
As I said when we started, it's always pointless debating anything with you because in the realm of RC there are not many more blinkered by bias.
Is that what I said ? NO, it wasn't. So I stopped reading your post at that stage.
Absolute bullshit post. Honestly not even worth replying.
Markovic is pending but then you ask the question that does Depay even look likely to justify his fees?
Then you go on to say about Firmino that he was a big success at his previous club and there's no reason why they can't replicate at Liverpool. The same could apply for Depay for well, but I fear even the tiniest bit of logic might explode that brain of yours.
It's a piece of shit. Nothing sums up that post better.
I don't share your pessimistic view of things. For example, if (an IF, yes), Spurs finish in the top 4 this season then no one will be taking any Spurs player that we're not happy to sell and we'll be able to build further on the current youthful squad. And meanwhile our new stadium - and the huge increase in income that goes with it - draws one season closer.
Nor do I agree that "unearthing" and then signing a gem is purely down to luck. It's partly down to the quality of a club's scouting and transfer negotiations process. It's also partly down to having a manager and a club (including its youth development track record) that excellent prospects - if "unearthed" - will want to play for. On that latter count, Pochettino and Spurs score well: prospects see what's happened with other young players at Spurs, are likely impressed by our new training centre and so may well decide that signing for us is a runner.
Liverpool seem a bit frozen in time to me - still not fully adjusted to being seen as 2nd tier and thus caught uncertainly to some extent between two stools when it comes to player recruitment ... though I imagine that the arrival of Klopp will improve things on this front. Speaking of frozen in time: is anything at all happening with a new stadium, or are you just going to improve/expand the current one?
Ok...
If by 'qualified success' you mean they haven't been very good, then sure, they're qualified successes. So my point is, by the same token, United haven't made a bad signing in the last 5 years. That's delusional. None of those mentioned have contributed any more than Fellaini, most haven't even come close.
Come on, admit it, that line about 'players being big successes at their previous clubs therefore no reason why they shouldn't replicate it' is fecking embarrassing. Especially from a Liverpool fan, a club with a clear track record of signing players who completely fail to transfer prior club form when turning out for LFC.
It's not that I'm super-critical of Sakho, I just don't think he's been particularly successful. If we're playing the 'let's not even mention' game, let's not even mention he has also been part of a highly comical and inept Liverpool defence. He is also a perma-crock and even when fit, has been at times kept out of the team by the likes of Lovren. No doubt his reputation will grow even further amongst Liverpool fans now he that is (once again) out for an extended period of time. That said, he's definitely one of the more borderline ones (which I referred to in the original post), who you could make a case for after Sturridge and Coutinho. He maybe helps the success rate climb above 10% (woohoo), but he's certainly not set the world alight. If that's the best you've got to counter the point, well it says it all really.
I don't really give a shit about you including freebies and loans. I was laughing at you giving Liverpool's freebies and loans a free pass (they don't count right), but in the absence of enough tangible United failures, having to drag ours into it. If you want to foolishly drag us into a debate about your shit transfer activity, then at least judge both club's transfer activity by the same criteria, right?
The rest of your post shows that you do actually rate the signings United have made. Fine (what are we arguing about again?)
So case closed really. We've done much better business. Yours has been largely poor or nondescript, apart from perma-crock Sturridge, Coutinho (who I rate very highly) and if we're generous, Sakho (also perma-crock).
You say I'm blinkered and biased, but you've essentially made my argument for me and when we strip away the silly double standards and get down to brass tacks, you pretty much agree. Cheers.
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Really redman, you're going to try to seriously argue that Rodgers couldn't have done any better?
Once again... bloody hell.
I'd also say there's a fairly good chance that those players left at least in part because of Rodgers. So let's not pretend he was helpless in such a situation. He helped cause it.
The debate about whether he spent the money well or not is already settled for me. He didn't.
And he ultimately showed himself to be tactically inept and clueless at setting up a team which didn't contain the 3rd best player in the wordl in the form of his life.
I'd say he did the best he could if we consider that he's not a very good manager and therefore performed at his level. So I guess you're right.
Is their actually a discussion going as to whether Rodgers spent well or not?
Is their actually a discussion going as to whether Rodgers spent well or not?
Well the discussion from my side centres on the fact that Rodgers was never in the position to waste £90 million on players like Fellaini & Di Maria. Instead he wasted £40 million on lesser known players like Markovich & Lallana. But hey ho, I'm sure you & Krafty will enlighten us as to why in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter because Brendan Rodgers & Liverpool had just as much opportunity to sign world class players as the likes of United, City, & Chelsea.
I'm all ears.....
I'm sorry but when you paid 60M for Di Maria did you not expect to get performances worthy of a 60M player ? And if he had been performing to that level do you think LvG would have let him go regardless of DM's personal wishes ? That's the story, so why should we not expect Benteke and Firmino not to reach their previous levels ? After all that's what we paid for and not an inferior version.
Unlucky with a couple of injuries isn't a perm-crock (I hope) though time will tell, but that doesn't diminish him as a player. Most LFC fans love him and even the media are now getting on-board, though I understand why a United fan wouldn't. Early this season he wasn't kept out of the team on performances though, as far as Lovren is concerned there was a clear case of favouritism by Rodgers', trying to justify his transfer from the abject failure it clearly is.
You brought them into it - you posted the list of every player we had bought under Rodgers but didn't add any qualifiers. Can I not then do likewise ? Yeah I mistakenly added Jones, my bad.
I haven't ever said I don't rate most of them, the opposite in fact - even Rojo who I thought was a dodgy signing is having a very good start to this season. My point was that LvG isn't getting the most out of your players that a more adventurous manager (dare I say Klopp ? No ? OK then someone like Guardiola or closer to home Pochettino or even Pellegrini !) would and that United fans are going a little OTT with regard to Martial, though that's understandable, but I think it's different for fans of other clubs looking in, he's playing better than he ever did in France but it's just a dozen games and that good start could evaporate just as quickly.
My whole point was that you called his transfer record 'abysmal' and that IMHO that is way over the top. Ultimately unsuccessful ? Yes we can certainly say that, but there are qualifiers and success stories too. Generally we are in the market for players of 10-20M with the odd one or two per season above that. United are spending 25-30m, on average, with the odd one or two way above that (and way, way above that in future, if we are to believe the media), so do you really expect there to be performance parity ?
There are outliers (Coutinho at one end and say Lovren at the other for us) but overall should we be judging United & Liverpool's transfer successes and performance levels to the same standards ? Inevitably we will and therein lies the issue with judging Rodgers' transfers.
Given those parameters to my mind the error was in the policy (quantity not quality) not so much the personnel who arrived (given a limitation of expectations based on fees and an acceptance that there were still some failures). But that then raises a whole other issue (as Redman has iterated) of persuading top class players to come to Liverpool, no easy task in this time of money and visibility being the expected prerogatives.
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For starters I love how you round the £87m spent on Di Maria and Fellaini up to £90m but round the £45m spent on Markovic and Lallana down to £40m.. Clever.
The discussion from my side would centre on the fact that having signed 30+ players, there are only 2 we can call confirmed successes, 1 of which seems to be made of fibre glass.
Don't think there's much value in comparing Rodgers transfer record with Van Gaal's since, as you rightly state, Rodgers would never have the chance to sign players of the same calibre. Instead it's probably best to look at his record in isolation and makes for pretty grim viewing. From the daft sums spent on players like Lallana and Lovren to the bizarre punts on Lambert and Balotelli.
I think an interesting exercise would be to rank your transfers under Rodgers, after Coutinho and Sturridge who was the best signing?
Atletico won their league against two of the most expensive sides in Europe, spending less then 100 million Euro's on their squad. Makes Liverpool look crap in comparison.