[The Serpent]

People don't understand Varane hugely helped cover up Martinez's deficiencies in his first 2 seasons for his lack of speed and sense of positioning and clearing his lines when necessary. I saw all I needed to know about his limitations when Liverpool stomped on us 7-0 where he was hugely culpable for losing Salah and getting skinned endlessly in that game

. Great elite defenders don't require to be doing last ditch tackles all the time and throwing their weight around needlessly picking up unnecessary bookings. He will be good as a rotational option but we can't keep pretending he's the main ingredient to our defence if we won't to move forward

 

[criticalanalysis]

People don't understand Varane hugely helped cover up Martinez's deficiencies in his first 2 seasons for his lack of speed and sense of positioning and clearing his lines when necessary. I saw all I needed to know about his limitations when Liverpool stomped on us 7-0 where he was hugely culpable for losing Salah and getting skinned endlessly in that game

. Great elite defenders don't require to be doing last ditch tackles all the time and throwing their weight around needlessly picking up unnecessary bookings. He will be good as a rotational option but we can't keep pretending he's the main ingredient to our defence if we won't to move forward

That's nonsense. Varane was incredible but they were a proper defensive duo, each doing their fair share of covering each other. They complimented each other well with Varane's length, aerial ability and recovery pace but he tended to back off rather than engage, whilst Martinez went touch tight and pressured the opposition.

As for the 7-0, he got done by Salah once and was 'fine' the rest of the game. Look at the highlights, it was Shaw and De Gea having nightmare games. He always get lumped as having a large responsibility for those big defeats (City 6-3, Brentford 4-0 etc) but if you look at the goals, he was rarely individually culpable. That narrative needs to die in regards to his first season.

Last year and this one though, yeah he's been suspect and been very inconsistent.

 

[The Serpent]

That's nonsense. Varane was incredible but they were a proper defensive duo, each doing their fair share of covering each other. They complimented each other well with Varane's length, aerial ability and recovery pace but he tended to back off rather than engage, whilst Martinez went touch tight and pressured the opposition.

As for the 7-0, he got done by Salah once and was 'fine' the rest of the game. Look at the highlights, it was Shaw and De Gea having nightmare games. He always get lumped as having a large responsibility for those big defeats (City 6-3, Brentford 4-0 etc) but if you look at the goals, he was rarely individually culpable. That narrative needs to die in regards to his first season.

Last year and this one though, yeah he's been suspect and been very inconsistent.

It's not nonsense, it's not a coincidence that both Martinez and Lindelof looked better defenders playing alongside Varane. When Martinez is partnered with anyone else he looks like a fish out of water and we saw how bad lindelof looked playing alongside Martinez last night and when he plays with Maguire.

Varane didn't back off he used his smarts, Like I said elite smart defenders don't need to continuously engage and slide in doing dramatic tackles. Thats the sign of a poor defender having to react rather than anticipate danger snuffing it out before it becomes an urgency to go to ground.

 

[lsd]

He had not looked the same player without Varane whether that's the reason I don't know for sure but it's worrying how poor he has been for so long now.

It's a real problem for Amorim to fix

 

[criticalanalysis]

It's not nonsense, it's not a coincidence that both Martinez and Lindelof looked better defenders playing alongside Varane. When Martinez is partnered with anyone else he looks like a fish out of water and we saw how bad lindelof looked playing alongside Martinez last night and when he plays with Maguire.

Varane didn't back off he used his smarts, Like I said elite smart defenders don't need to continuously engage and slide in doing dramatic tackles. Thats the sign of a poor defender having to react rather than anticipate danger snuffing it out before it becomes an urgency to go to ground.

I'm not disputing that Varane was very good for us but it's also true his best performances came when paired with Martinez. Just look at the two Cup wins when they both started. As for Lindelof, we don't need to include him in the conversation, he's shite and everyone paired with him has to do the heavy lifting on and off the ball. Agreed Martinez has looked out of sorts with anyone not named Varane but that's different to saying the Frenchman covered for him when they complimented each other well.

Varane was standoffish because he had great length and good recovery speed but he didn't engage as much as someone like he should have (with his physical gifts and reading of the game). As for your last sentence, stop saying these cliche football generalisations. 'When you tackle, it's already a mistake' - Maldini - cue him being one the greatest slide tacklers the game has seen. Also 'engage' doesn't have to mean trying to win the ball at the first tackle or sliding in, you can also jostle, get them to commit to a side and prevent them from advancing.

 

[The Serpent]

I'm not disputing that Varane was very good for us but it's also true his best performances came when paired with Martinez. Just look at the two Cup wins when they both started. As for Lindelof, we don't need to include him in the conversation, he's shite and everyone paired with him has to do the heavy lifting on and off the ball. Agreed Martinez has looked out of sorts with anyone not named Varane but that's different to saying the Frenchman covered for him when they complimented each other well.

Varane was standoffish because he had great length and good recovery speed but he didn't engage as much as someone like he should have (with his physical gifts and reading of the game). As for your last sentence, stop saying these cliche football generalisations. 'When you tackle, it's already a mistake' - Maldini - cue him being one the greatest slide tacklers the game has seen. Also 'engage' doesn't have to mean trying to win the ball at the first tackle or sliding in, you can also jostle, get them to commit to a side and prevent them from advancing.

I mention Lindelof to show you his best days in a United shirt was when he was paired with Varane. Otherwise he looks shit and soft when he has been with maguire and martinez.

Varane covering for martinez deficiencies doesn't take away your point about them complimenting each other.

It's not a cliche my friend, look at the best defenders in the game they are not picking up yellow cards and sliding around the pitch and eating dust when against someone with decent pace . Maldini was a great slide tackler but he rarely found himself in positions where he was doing last ditch tackles and didn't know how to block off spaces. You don't need to be fast to avoid getting constantly skinned and out of position

Martinez doesn't just not have speed, he lacks positional intelligence which is why when he's left on his own he gets exposed. Varane can slide tackle too he's displayed that skill many times, but he had the height, heading and smarts to know how to disengage an attacker where it wasn't required to be doing so. He jostled and blocked off passing lanes, he just didn't beat his chest and scream and shout with the fake hard man act afterwards like we have with Martinez. Phil Jones use to do all this stuff and I didn't rate him as a great defender before injuries plagued his career

Martinez reminds me of a smaller sized lesser version of Marco Materazzi but without the attacking threat

 

[Irwin99]

That's nonsense. Varane was incredible but they were a proper defensive duo, each doing their fair share of covering each other. They complimented each other well with Varane's length, aerial ability and recovery pace but he tended to back off rather than engage, whilst Martinez went touch tight and pressured the opposition.

As for the 7-0, he got done by Salah once and was 'fine' the rest of the game. Look at the highlights, it was Shaw and De Gea having nightmare games. He always get lumped as having a large responsibility for those big defeats (City 6-3, Brentford 4-0 etc) but if you look at the goals, he was rarely individually culpable. That narrative needs to die in regards to his first season.

Last year and this one though, yeah he's been suspect and been very inconsistent.

That's actually how I remember it too. Shaw just completely lost his head in that game and I remember being mad that every shot seemed to go past De Gea when some of them looked very savable. The whole team performance was wretched but I really don't recall Martinez or Varane being especially bad, maybe I'm wrong though.

I don't think there needs to be revisionism about his first season, he was mostly excellent. However, I have seen arguments that the system helped him a lot in that first year and there might be an argument that it made him look a better defender than he actually is, or at least, covered his deficiencies. For me he has to start doing a lot better defensively again.

 

[OT_United]

I certainly don’t think he’s as mobile since his foot injury that he did end of 22/23 season.
Has he ever played in a back 3? He isn’t quite the same without Varane next to him.

 

[Ekeke]

I certainly don’t think he’s as mobile since his foot injury that he did end of 22/23 season.
Has he ever played in a back 3? He isn’t quite the same without Varane next to him.

Solanke was recorded as the fastest player in the league at one point last season - I know, I'm surprised too but he is at least fast. Despite that Lisandro was able to get back into position on the 3rd goal and help delay for Evans to get back.

Obviously the defending from the 2 of them once they were back was poor. But if you can keep up with Solanke on a throughball you arent lacking mobility as a CB

 

[criticalanalysis]

I mention Lindelof to show you his best days in a United shirt was when he was paired with Varane. Otherwise he looks shit and soft when he has been with maguire and martinez.

Varane covering for martinez deficiencies doesn't take away your point about them complimenting each other.

It's not a cliche my friend, look at the best defenders in the game they are not picking up yellow cards and sliding around the pitch and eating dust when against someone with decent pace . Maldini was a great slide tackler but he rarely found himself in positions where he was doing last ditch tackles and didn't know how to block off spaces. You don't need to be fast to avoid getting constantly skinned and out of position

Martinez doesn't just not have speed, he lacks positional intelligence which is why when he's left on his own he gets exposed. Varane can slide tackle too he's displayed that skill many times, but he had the height, heading and smarts to know how to disengage an attacker where it wasn't required to be doing so. He jostled and blocked off passing lanes, he just didn't beat his chest and scream and shout with the fake hard man act afterwards like we have with Martinez. Phil Jones use to do all this stuff and I didn't rate him as a great defender before injuries plagued his career

Martinez reminds me of a smaller sized lesser version of Marco Materazzi but without the attacking threat

I don't think Lindelof has really had any sustained period of form with any player where I was like 'wow that's a really good defender'. Also let's not pretend Varane didn't have his fair share of defensive dodgy moments with us too, namely being not committal with some defending and being ungangly with the ball when being asked to contribute passing more progressively.

The rest of your post I don't really have a strong opinion on as it's subjective enough with some truth, even if I find some a bit harsh. However, the bolded bit is just dumb. Martinez is absolutely clumsy with some of his over-enthusiastic tackling but he's a 'hard man' (whatever that means) as much anyone else. He regularly puts his head and body on the line where it would hurt to block shots etc (I mean he's definitely been kicked in the head/face at least 2-3 times in his Utd career already), tackles with intensity and don't forget last season, came back early or played on even with his foot injury, sometimes to his own detriment. That's not even mentioning the fact he will regularly duel with the opposition, whatever their size or reputation. We need more players of this mentality. If he was 6ft, nobody would be saying 'oh look at this fake/small man overcompensating', they would be saying 'he's a cnut but he's our one'.

 

[Marcus]

Only seen the highlights but he looked culpable for 2 of the goals. Needs to improve quickly in terms of defending.

 

[Dans]

He's nowhere near as polished as some of us believed. Positionally he's suspect (see the goal last night where he didn't hold the line), technically his short range passing isn't all that and he cannot do anything but stand on his right foot.

 

[Bon1803]

Not quite sure why he is getting such a bashing for last night.

2nd goal he got something on a dangerous ball across and unfortunately it fell perfectly for kulesevski. What else can he actually do there given his body position.

3rd goal he is hesitant but still stands Solanke up long enough for others to get back. Not great but not enough to say we need to replace him.

He brings some much needed quality on the ball and wins some early balls with his anticipation.

Not a priority replacement for me at the moment. Do believe he is playing below his ability currently too.

 

[Carl]

Bloke is living off his first season with us. Since then he's either been injured or somewhere between bad and average.

 

[Oranges038]

Not quite sure why he is getting such a bashing for last night.

2nd goal he got something on a dangerous ball across and unfortunately it fell perfectly for kulesevski. What else can he actually do there given his body position.

3rd goal he is hesitant but still stands Solanke up long enough for others to get back. Not great but not enough to say we need to replace him.

He brings some much needed quality on the ball and wins some early balls with his anticipation.

Not a priority replacement for me at the moment. Do believe he is playing below his ability currently too.

2nd goal he has to get more on that clearance. Should be putting his foot through it, not passing it out to the penalty spot. It's the one place on the pitch you don't want that ball to go.

3rd goal, he's played him on first off, yes he held him up, but he let him inside far too easily, it's not like Evans was ready and waiting to mop up either. He was running back then had to try and turn and adjust his body position to deal with it. Maybe if he was 10 years younger he might have been a bit quicker to adjust.

He's not been great defensively for a while, the left side of the 3 suits him on the ball, but off it as a defender it doesn't really look like he's comfortable there yet. I say yet, because it's still early in this system, but he needs to buck up or he'll be heading for the door.

 

[Matt851]

Not quite sure why he is getting such a bashing for last night.

2nd goal he got something on a dangerous ball across and unfortunately it fell perfectly for kulesevski. What else can he actually do there given his body position.

3rd goal he is hesitant but still stands Solanke up long enough for others to get back. Not great but not enough to say we need to replace him.

He brings some much needed quality on the ball and wins some early balls with his anticipation.

Not a priority replacement for me at the moment. Do believe he is playing below his ability currently too.

The second goal was a horrendous attempt at a clearance. The third he gets back for solanke to go past him was incredible ease

He makes big mistakes most weeks and forwards seek to enjoy playing against him. He undoubtedly needs replacing

 

[Lentwood]

The second goal was a horrendous attempt at a clearance. The third he gets back for solanke to go past him was incredible ease

He makes big mistakes most weeks and forwards seek to enjoy playing against him. He undoubtedly needs replacing

Agreed.

I have posts going back to 2023 where I repeatedly said I liked Martinez and I liked his attitude, but that he wasn't an elite CB.

Just like when I called out Rashford early on, I got dogs abuse from people who don't understand what they're watching and buy into all this "butcher" nonsense.

Now, as usual, the tide has started to turn and it's a fairly commonly held opinion that he's not good enough for us to achieve our long term ambitions.

I'd sell him. Not because he's rubbish / couldn't be a good squad member, but because he has transfer value. I am sure someone like Inter would pay £45m for him, and if someone did offer that, we should bite their hand off and reinvest that money on a CB with a better profile.

If people took their red-tinted glasses off and actually watched our games objectively, it wouldn't take them three seasons to figure out what is obvious after 15 games.

Let's be honest, he played in the 0-4 vs Brentford and was destroyed. He played in the 3-6 vs City, and was destroyed. He played in the 0-7 vs Liverpool and was destroyed. He's made countless mistakes since, not least being culpable for four goals in two weeks. Yesterday he was destroyed by Dom Solanke, an average PL plodder of a forward.

Another crackpot EtH experiment gone wrong. I'm with Carragher. You can't be 5ft 9" and be a PL CB.

 

[Ballache]

His inability to defend 1 on 1's will be his downfall in this system.
The clearance was a mistake but the 3rd goal annoyed me more, Solanke just waltzed past him. You can't be getting beat this easily.

 

[Bon1803]

2nd goal he has to get more on that clearance. Should be putting his foot through it, not passing it out to the penalty spot. It's the one place on the pitch you don't want that ball to go.

3rd goal, he's played him on first off, yes he held him up, but he let him inside far too easily, it's not like Evans was ready and waiting to mop up either. He was running back then had to try and turn and adjust his body position to deal with it. Maybe if he was 10 years younger he might have been a bit quicker to adjust.

He's not been great defensively for a while, the left side of the 3 suits him on the ball, but off it as a defender it doesn't really look like he's comfortable there yet. I say yet, because it's still early in this system, but he needs to buck up or he'll be heading for the door.

Have not seen the second goal a lot so will have a few more looks at it when I get chance. I just remember thinking he looked wrong footed and just tried to get something on it as he probable wasn’t aware of what was behind him.

3rd he should do better, I was worried he was going to take him out so was quite relaxed when he stood him up. Have to admit he went past him far too easily though, a check on the edge of the box with Evan’s back would have done.

 

[Bon1803]

The second goal was a horrendous attempt at a clearance. The third he gets back for solanke to go past him was incredible ease

He makes big mistakes most weeks and forwards seek to enjoy playing against him. He undoubtedly needs replacing

I need to rewatch the second goal to comment more.

No real argument on the 3rd.

Just not sure it’s a priority to replace. He’s back from some long injuries and learning a new system. I may be wrong but my memory is not recalling massive amounts of big mistakes. I do agree he’s not been performing to his original bar but don’t feel he is bad enough to turn against.

Another post mentioned they would sell due to him having value, I can agree with that if it’s for the greater good but it would need a good replacement which would generated additional cash to strengthen else where.

Just feel we have more pressing priorities at the moment.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That injury has ruined him. I'd sell in the summer.

 

[MaMa given red]

I don't know what has happened to him but he looks a shadow of the player that started here a few years ago.

He gets done easily in one on one's and makes so many unforced errors like the one that lead to the second goal yesterday. He needs dropping for a bit.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Even though he might not be the best choice defensively, we would definitely take something out of the team in terms of the build-up by dropping him. Will be interesting to see what Amorim does for Bournemouth - I expect he will still play.

 

[Redstain]

I think he's the most replaceable individual across the defensive line probably only just bested by Luke Shaw.

Don't think it's a coincidence the team is conceding from corners more frequently with his inclusion. As others have stated his best form was demonstrated next to Varane, who still has / had fantastic reading of the game and defensive awareness just lacking the fitness to play for pro-longed periods.

I think the club ought to be looking for a left sided centre half as a priority in the next summer window. Would absolutely take Branthwaite for the physicality alone.

 

[evil_geko]

Martinez was very good in his first season. He isnt rated just because of passion.

We have a gold fish syndrome on here, don't bother.

 

[PINGUtd]

He was poor yesterday. But let's not be too reactive. On Sunday versus City, Martinez was sublime, provided stability and an insane assist.

I think he really struggles to play alongside Evans/Lindelöf. When aside of Maguire or De Ligt, Licha is usally good.

 

[santeria13]

We have a gold fish syndrome on here, don't bother.

And he's been very poor on average ever since, going on 1 and a half seasons now. He's been bad for us more than he's been good.

 

[Walrus]

Think people are being harsh. He wasnt great last night but two call his part in the two goals "major errors"... I dont think so.

The 2nd goal, he is wrong footed and knows there is a Spurs player behind him, he tries to get the ball away but unfortunately it goes straight to another Spurs player. Unfortunate but I wouldnt call it a mistake or particularly bad defending (though of course it looks like that in hindsight).

The 3rd one he gets done by Solanke. Not his finest moment, but clearly he is/was trying to hold him up and show him onto his weaker foot - then Solanke turns inside, which is where Martinez should do better, but equally he sees Evans has gotten back to cover that side so is probably mostly concerning himself with covering the outside if Solanke went that way.

 

[Shinjch]

Really think this system will expose his weaknesses and take away from his strengths. Doesn't look like a fit in that wider centre back role where he has to deal with more one on ones against pacy forwards

 

[Adamsk7]

He’s brilliant on the ball, probably top 5 in the world, and his interceptions are great too. Everything else, he’s sadly quite average. In this system you have to be a great 1v1 defender as the left and right sided CBs and that is his biggest deficiency along with height. Right now it’s not a major problem but I think within the next two years we’ll see him replaced with a Yoro equivalent on the left side. I actually quite like Inacio at Sporting

 

[Leftback99]

Apart from LWB, LCB is the most obvious upgrade to this team. Getting someone with physicality and set piece threat would improve us significantly at both ends.

 

[Avatar]

Not quite sure why he is getting such a bashing for last night.

2nd goal he got something on a dangerous ball across and unfortunately it fell perfectly for kulesevski. What else can he actually do there given his body position.

3rd goal he is hesitant but still stands Solanke up long enough for others to get back. Not great but not enough to say we need to replace him.

He brings some much needed quality on the ball and wins some early balls with his anticipation.

Not a priority replacement for me at the moment. Do believe he is playing below his ability currently too.

Agree.

The second goal was a stop, not a clearance guys. Ball was fast and from nearby. No time to kick it, just to extend your foot to stop it from reaching the Spurs forward behind him. It was more of a reflex.

 

[flameinthesun]

Been saying since the end of his first season. I think in a title challenging squad it is good to have a player like him. However, I don't see him as a first choice CB in such a team. We seem to be the only team in the prem (or top team in europe) trying to get away with playing a short CB. Whilst he is very good on the ball, he is not leagues ahead of other defenders. His ability on the ball is not so good that it must be accommodated at any cost. Personally, I'd rather a strong, tall and quick CB in the mould of Yoro on the left, who may not be as talented as Martinez but still good on the ball. The reality is he does struggle physically more than the majority of CBs. His first 7 months aside, he hasn't really reached those levels (albeit with a lot of injuries). Whilst its not a priority, I can't see how the manager when looking at areas to improve would not look at Martinez as an area to improve. Probably no coincidence that we were looking at Braithwaite, who, despite not being at the level of Martinez on the ball, would add that height, physicality and speed to that left side.

 

[Stadjer]

But he has been terrible for 1.5 seasons now without varane holding his hand

It is fine if you think that (although it is a bit of an overreaction imo) but that doesnt change my statement.

He isnt just rated because of his 'passion' but also because he showed that he is a good and capable defender during his first season.

 

[Bojan11]

Another player that I doubt will be here very much longer. He is a midget with no pace. He might have great passing, but that is not much use when he’s asked to defend. Why do we always sign some players with clear limitations?

 

[V.O.]

Another player that I doubt will be here very much longer. He is a midget with no pace. He might have great passing, but that is not much use when he’s asked to defend. Why do we always sign some players with clear limitations?

One of the few players that played quite well today, But by all means, get your agenda bullshit in on your favourite targets after a loss.

 

[Bobski]

How do you hide him defensively in a 3 at the back system. Anonymous in the air and struggles to defend the channels, which automatically means compromises elsewhere to cover him which cause other issues.

Is his passing valuable enough to need this?

 

[Roboc7]

Another player that I doubt will be here very much longer. He is a midget with no pace. He might have great passing, but that is not much use when he’s asked to defend. Why do we always sign some players with clear limitations?

We’ve recruited like that for years, he just isn’t up to playing this role. Find someone who is faster, bigger and better defensively and it will be a big improvement even if they may not be as good a passer.

I’d be amazed if he isnt someone who we would sell but only so many can leave in the summer.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Good on the ball today but he’s very bad defensively. Doesn’t even defend the box as well as he used to. Seems to react to things slower than attackers a lot of the time.

Don’t see a future for him here tbh and he’ll continue to be a massive liability at the back:

 

[Bojan11]

One of the few players that played quite well today, But by all means, get your agenda bullshit in on your favourite targets after a loss.

Agenda? Why did he leave the only guy in the box for their third goal completely free, when he was right next to him