[Pogue Mahone]

I don't know how he can be bereft of confidence. He just had a storming tournament with Argentina which they won while not conceding a single goal during the time he was on the pitch. Maybe he's going through a rough patch or he's not fully fit as he's had no pre-season.

It doesn’t make any sense at all. But that’s how it looks to me.

 

[saik]

It doesn’t make any sense at all. But that’s how it looks to me.

I'll just put it down to him not having a pre-season for now. But if he still sucks in the game against Liverpool then his position should be under threat.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

He does seem to be losing a lot of his attempts to nip in and win the ball in midfield, which is taking him clean out of it.
I can see the merit to having him in the team because generally our pressing looks to be getting a lot better. The problem is finding the balance where we can be penetrative, and yet get a midfield that can control the ball and set tempo so we aren’t losing it as much. Then our defence can step up more and then he can step in and win balls in midfield.

There is still too much space between defence, midfield and attack.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

He was imperious in the Copa America. And the FA Cup final.

Not had a good start to the season at all. Seems like he takes a while to work back into things after a summer break. Carrick-esque.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

In normal fashion I’ve rewatched the game this morning, and as much as Harry Maguire bottled the first goal you could argue he didn’t react to the space either.

The second goal, I appreciate the situation in regards to the prior phase, but he is so far out of position even if he is tracking a man.

He also didn’t look great in possession with his only real out ball being to the left hand side, and even then he put Mainoo, Dalot and Rashford under immense pressure at times.

He needs to sort his shit out or we might be looking at the real bench option in him imo.

 

[Skills]

I think he was better than last week.

 

[Litch]

I think hes struggling to find his form and could end up on the bench if all CB's are fit....

 

[Lentwood]

He does seem to be losing a lot of his attempts to nip in and win the ball in midfield, which is taking him clean out of it.
I can see the merit to having him in the team because generally our pressing looks to be getting a lot better. The problem is finding the balance where we can be penetrative, and yet get a midfield that can control the ball and set tempo so we aren’t losing it as much. Then our defence can step up more and then he can step in and win balls in midfield.

There is still too much space between defence, midfield and attack.

Twice in two weeks he's gone charging in, been absolutely rag-dolled and left a 4 vs 2 or 2 vs 1

If you do that, you HAVE to win it or you HAVE to foul the opponent. Joao Pedro fended him off like a little kid yesterday

 

[Leftback99]

He's pointless when the game turns into a transitional end to end shitshow, because it just minimizes his possesional impact and emphasizes his main weakness (defending wide spaces).

However, I also think any CB in the world will find it difficult when the game gets that stretched because they'll just constantly have to deal with 4v4 situations when it's not easy to do so.

The problem is we've seemingly got no intention of being a possession orientated team. We've rarely seen the importance of his quality on the ball for us, which kinda defeats the object of him. His best performances have been combative displays in a deep defensive line, which isn't where we want to be.

 

[Blood Mage]

As others have said he had a great Copa America so I'm not worried yet. He needs to be taken out of the team for a bit if he's poor against Liverpool though.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Twice in two weeks he's gone charging in, been absolutely rag-dolled and left a 4 vs 2 or 2 vs 1

If you do that, you HAVE to win it or you HAVE to foul the opponent. Joao Pedro fended him off like a little kid yesterday

Was that when he forearm smashed him in the face? Not allowed to do that in kids games and normally the games are stopped.

 

[Lentwood]

Was that when he forearm smashed him in the face? Not allowed to do that in kids games and normally the games are stopped.

It was but since Martinez is about 4ft tall it's bound to happen isn't it!

I'm going to get pegged on here as someone who has it in for Martinez but I love him, think he's a great addition to the squad...but I worry he blows hot and cold and when he's bad...he's pretty bad

 

[Dannn411]

It was roundly dismissed when I first suggested it when he was signed but I will bring it back up again now that we have two starting calibre CBs signed. Lisandro is not physical enough to be a great PL defender for many years. Just doesn't cover ground as much. He would be excellent as a sitting DM because of his passing and vision and ability to adjust tempo. He would also give us presence in midfield which has been nonexistent for a decade. Why oh why can't we just try him there?

 

[Andersons Dietician]

It was but since Martinez is about 4ft tall it's bound to happen isn't it!

I'm going to get pegged on here as someone who has it in for Martinez but I love him, think he's a great addition to the squad...but I worry he blows hot and cold and when he's bad...he's pretty bad

He is but also if your nickname is “The Butcher” forearm smashes to the face should be brushed off like they are nothing. Was pretty disappointed in that.

I do think you are right on the hot and cold thing because I’m sure ever since he has gotten here when he has had a bit of time out he takes a few games to get in the motions. I do wonder though if we had managed to get Branthwaite what his position in the squad would become. For now I think he and DeLigt will be first choice and Yoro getting games here and there but fully expect us to go back in for Branthwaite next season when Everton get relegated.

 

[criticalanalysis]

The problem is we've seemingly got no intention of being a possession orientated team. We've rarely seen the importance of his quality on the ball for us, which kinda defeats the object of him. His best performances have been combative displays in a deep defensive line, which isn't where we want to be.

Martinez deserves criticism for his hot and cold defensive displays but the bolded is not true unless you thought there was no difference whenever you saw Maguire/Lindelof/Varane play?

 

[Leftback99]

Martinez deserves criticism for his hot and cold defensive displays but the bolded is not true unless you thought there was no difference whenever you saw Maguire/Lindelof/Varane play?

Which games stand out where his quality on the ball was key?

Yes he's better on the ball than those others but do we really see that much benefit with how we play?

 

[criticalanalysis]

Which games stand out where his quality on the ball was key?

Yes he's better on the ball than those others but do we really see that much benefit with how we play?

The potential issue here is your definition of 'key' and 'much benefit' because if you're using a narrow and specific interpretation, where you expect his passing to win us games or for him to be standout dictating play alone, then there's no point discussing further as we'll be too far apart of a realistic expectation. Or do you think his passing has no meaningful or 'key' effect and we would have achieved the same if it had been Lindelof/Maguire/Varane in his place (or a combination of those two)? You only have to look at the Fa Cup final where Guardiola said himself that Martinez's ability to pass into the middle of the pitch was key to beating them.

Otherwise, I would say a lot of his games in the first season are examples of his quality on the ball which was 'key' as much as anyone one player can have an impact on the team. There are literal passing compilations of just his first 7-8 months with us that some defensive players would be lucky to have over several seasons.

 

[JJ12]

Knee-jerk United

 

[Leftback99]

The potential issue here is your definition of 'key' and 'much benefit' because if you're using a narrow and specific interpretation, where you expect his passing to win us games or for him to be standout dictating play alone, then there's no point discussing further as we'll be too far apart of a realistic expectation. Or do you think his passing has no meaningful or 'key' effect and we would have achieved the same if it had been Lindelof/Maguire/Varane in his place (or a combination of those two)? You only have to look at the Fa Cup final where Guardiola said himself that Martinez's ability to pass into the middle of the pitch was key to beating them.

Otherwise, I would say a lot of his games in the first season are examples of his quality on the ball which was 'key' as much as anyone one player can have an impact on the team. There are literal passing compilations of just his first 7-8 months with us that some defensive players would be lucky to have over several seasons.

Which ones?

I just don't think we really play to his strengths. Not bothered about getting into an argument about it.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Knee-jerk United

He's done his knee again?!

 

[Bastian]

It was roundly dismissed when I first suggested it when he was signed but I will bring it back up again now that we have two starting calibre CBs signed. Lisandro is not physical enough to be a great PL defender for many years. Just doesn't cover ground as much. He would be excellent as a sitting DM because of his passing and vision and ability to adjust tempo. He would also give us presence in midfield which has been nonexistent for a decade. Why oh why can't we just try him there?

I don't think he has the mobility.

 

[Crimson King]

It was roundly dismissed when I first suggested it when he was signed but I will bring it back up again now that we have two starting calibre CBs signed. Lisandro is not physical enough to be a great PL defender for many years. Just doesn't cover ground as much. He would be excellent as a sitting DM because of his passing and vision and ability to adjust tempo. He would also give us presence in midfield which has been nonexistent for a decade. Why oh why can't we just try him there?

Because you need to cover more ground as a DM. It's a stupid idea and wouldn't work in the long run.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Which ones?

You haven't answered on what is your expectation and interpretation of what it means to be key? I don't have games memorised on which ones would show he was paramount in passing only.

Take these random single games examples:





You've better off working your way back from these compilations:

 

[criticalanalysis]

Which ones?

I just don't think we really play to his strengths. Not bothered about getting into an argument about it.

There's no player in the team that we play to their strengths and that's on ETH. That's different to not recognising what the players still contribute to the pitch and minimising their quality in spite of ETH's coaching.

It's cool, there's no argument here. You said something, which imo I find pretty absurd and contrarian as Martinez is universally praised for his passing. I reply in good faith and ask for some context to your interpretation, giving you benefit of the doubt and you ask for examples...when I literally gave you one. Either you misspoke or you're conflating your criticism of him by adding the 'we rarely see the important of his passing'. That's a wild take for any fan that's watched us and his games over the last two years.

I've given you some video examples above. Do you still think that?

 

[Leftback99]

You haven't answered on what is your expectation and interpretation of what it means to be key? I don't have games memorised on which ones would show he was paramount in passing only.

Take these random single games examples:





You've better off working your way back from these compilations:

I'm not saying he isn't a top quality in possession it's just the way some talk that he is key to us playing any kind of coherent football. I don't see a huge difference in our overall play personally. Would be interesting to see possession % with and without.

 

[dutchred]

Needs tohave de Ligt net to him. Someone with more pace and aggression than Maquire

 

[criticalanalysis]

I'm not saying he isn't a top quality in possession it's just the way some talk that he is key to us playing any kind of coherent football. I don't see a huge difference in our overall play personally. Would be interesting to see possession % with and without.

The single biggest factor of how we play football is on ETH. It's his tactics, his coaching, his formation and use of players. In that sense nobody on this team has actually made any key contributions that go above and beyond to singularly influence the team. But that's an incredibly moot point. Martinez has proved he helps us play coherent football (as much as one player can) and he will be a key player (compared to anyone else in the squad) if or when we actually get to play this way under ETH.

It's a bit like saying Bruno and Rashford, who have provided the majority of goals and assists these past 4 years haven't made key contributions because we're still a shit team. I mean yeah it's true but that's a really disingenuous take.

 

[BluesJr]

I’d honestly do what Arsenal were going to do and play him at LB and have De Ligt and Yoro at CB long term.

 

[Bobski]

I’d honestly do what Arsenal were going to do and play him at LB and have De Ligt and Yoro at CB long term.

He doesn't have the mobility or ability to cover the ground the role requires.

 

[BluesJr]

He doesn't have the mobility or ability to cover the ground the role requires.

In a possession based approach he would be fine. Shame the manager lacks the ability to implement it.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I’d honestly do what Arsenal were going to do and play him at LB and have De Ligt and Yoro at CB long term.

He's terrible at left back. Any issues he has get exposed there far more. I'm surprised this is still something people call for.

 

[BluesJr]

He's terrible at left back. Any issues he has get exposed there far more. I'm surprised this is still something people call for.

Because it mitigates his issues at CB and gets him on the ball more as full backs see a lot of the ball.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Because it mitigates his issues at CB and gets him on the ball more as full backs see a lot of the ball.

It also puts him in a position where fast, tricky players run at him with the ball constantly and requires him to be able to take players on.

It's a disaster.

 

[BluesJr]

It also puts him in a position where fast, tricky players run at him with the ball constantly and requires him to be able to take players on.

It's a disaster.

Not if he plays inverted, in a possession based set up.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Not if he plays inverted, in a possession based set up.

Inverted left backs don't play at left back and he ran at by wingers? What would our wingers do with no overlap?

 

[BluesJr]

Inverted left backs don't play at left back and he ran at by wingers? What would our wingers do with no overlap?

Ask Arteta why he wanted him at LB.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Ask Arteta why he wanted him at LB.

I don't know him so I can't ask him that or whether he even did sadly.

What I do know is that it is a rubbish idea based on everything we know about the player and Arteta tried it with Zinchenko who's far more suited to it and Arsenal fans spent a year begging not to start him.

 

[Bwuk]

Martinez at LB would only work if we went down the City/Chelsea route of inverting him into CDM when we have the ball. It'd be something like this;

Onana
Dalot - de Ligt - Yoro
Ugarte - Martinez
Amad - Mainoo - Bruno - Garnacho
Hojlund​

 

[RDCR07]

He has fallen off a cliff too. What the hell happened to him to have 4 shitty games in a row?

 

[Leftback99]

The next manager won't fancy him at CB.