[thegregster]

It would have to be Maguire. Our central CB is all that stands in the way between us and conceeding from every set piece. Whether its Maguire or de Ligt, we need at least 1 of them for those situations. Lisandro cant do it

And Maguire pulling wide to deal with an attacker with pace... He might get by but thats clearly going to be a problem in the end

Lisandro just needs to focus, he had a good run of games until Forest. All of our CBs have had problems but he was doing a bit better than the others. Now he needs to get back to that

But they can switch for set-pieces? Same for when the rare occasions when the opposition has a tall CF.

Once we play 2 CBs who are tall we are at no disadvantage.

 

[NZT-One]

It was a completely different system and manager when we were interested in Timber.

Timber would be an even better fit for a 3atb formation.

It’s mentally he’s weaker this year.

Just less focused it seems. Has all the capabilities to be one of the best imo.

In the meaning of he has two legs and a head just like Rio, Vidic and Maldini or something more specific? For me personally, thats wishful thinking. Even if Martinez finds his form again gets back to where he once was, he will never be one of the best CBs. Maybe one of the Top 30, if that is what you meant.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Timber would be an even better fit for a 3atb formation.

In the meaning of he has two legs and a head just like Rio, Vidic and Maldini or something more specific? For me personally, thats wishful thinking. Even if Martinez finds his form again gets back to where he once was, he will never be one of the best CBs. Maybe one of the Top 30, if that is what you meant.

In the meaning that he's shown before what a good footballer and defender he can be.

He can play it out, he can be aggressive at the right times, he can be a leader and he can have vision for when or not to tackle. On top of that he can be a good partner when matched with the right one (like seen with Varane). You don't see many versatile defenders these days that also are good on the ball and aggressive with leader capabilities. But of course he isn't doing all of this when he isn't focused.

By best, I don't compare him with the greatest, just nowadays defenders - I believe he has the skills to be as good as anyone today, but I'm not sure many of the best defenders these days are at the level of Rio, Maldini, etc.

 

[NZT-One]

In the meaning that he's shown before what a good footballer and defender he can be.

He can play it out, he can be aggressive at the right times, he can be a leader and he can have vision for when or not to tackle. On top of that he can be a good partner when matched with the right one (like seen with Varane). You don't see many versatile defenders these days that also are good on the ball and aggressive with leader capabilities. But of course he isn't doing all of this when he isn't focused.

By best, I don't compare him with the greatest, just nowadays defenders - I believe he has the skills to be as good as anyone today, but I'm not sure many of the best defenders these days are at the level of Rio, Maldini, etc.

Just fyi - yes you do see many versatile defenders that are good on the ball these days. At least in the top leagues. Martinez might still be slightly better than them but certainly not so much better, that it balances issues in other departments. Just for the record, I think he is a good player and that is fine, I'd be happy if he could be just that a good player for us. Doesn't have to be one of the best around. I am just a bit suprised where the praise comes from.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Timber would be an even better fit for a 3atb formation.

He may well have been but the point was no one could’ve predicted at the time of our interest in him that the current manager would get sacked a couple years down the line and his replacement would favour a 3 at the back system.

 

[NZT-One]

He may well have been but the point was no one could’ve predicted at the time of our interest in him that the current manager would get sacked a couple years down the line and his replacement would favour a 3 at the back system.

Thats true, but I guess, that also applies to Martinez doesn't it? So both are both a mistake and not a mistake from that standpoint. Schrodingers Centreback.

 

[lex talionis]

I'm still in the dip in form camp, not the lack of class of camp when it comes to Martinez.

 

[Fobal]

I'm still in the dip in form camp, not the lack of class of camp when it comes to Martinez.

More than form, he looks frustrated and the whole team far from finding their feet

 

[Donut]

He's basically a copy of Heinze who can pass a bit. I guess there's not much wrong with that, many people loved Heinze, and he had a good career.

 

[Fobal]

He's basically a copy of Heinze who can pass a bit. I guess there's not much wrong with that, many people loved Heinze, and he had a good career.

WTF this place.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Just fyi - yes you do see many versatile defenders that are good on the ball these days. At least in the top leagues. Martinez might still be slightly better than them but certainly not so much better, that it balances issues in other departments. Just for the record, I think he is a good player and that is fine, I'd be happy if he could be just that a good player for us. Doesn't have to be one of the best around. I am just a bit suprised where the praise comes from.

Did you not see his first season here? So much potential.

 

[NZT-One]

Did you not see his first season here? So much potential.

I've seen his first season given that I've seen like 99% of United games since 2007. I've never had the impression that there is something Cannavarro-like with him, which would elevate him to the very top. Thats nothing to be worried about, but I see him more in the Daley Blind bracket. Also people tend to overrate our own players on here (sometimes it feels like a desperation for world class players) just have a look into the Garnacho thread or Dalots over time. I personally always felt, that it was on the edge with him, a small, not pacey CB that is great with the ball. But you just have to have a look around, the general level of technicality in players is rising. As I said, Martinez might still be better than most of them but the difference isn't all that big.

 

[tenpoless]

He's world champion.

 

[DannyCAFC]

He's looked very poor under Amorim so far. I'd stuck up for him a bit after the 2 goals against Bodo/Glimnt and put that down to issues with the system as he looked to be acting on instruction from the manager, but nobody else has made those type of positional mistakes in open play so you wonder... and then lord knows what he was doing at the weekend.

Strange as he was excellent in his first year obviously and it doesn't look as though it's simply down to him not being the same player after injuries. I think he's maybe just very much a system player and not a good fit for this one. Seems often slow to react to the play and not quick enough to cover ground to make up for it, as well as the glaringly obvious issue with him in the air.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

He's world champion.

Sadly, almost everything he’s done is 2 years ago now.

He’s got to step up or he just becomes another member of the forever growing rot. Unfortunately for me, I think he’s too far gone as he isn’t the leader I thought he was and clearly misses the influence of a commander like Varane who was very good at orchestrating that back line when fit.

 

[SamYourEye]

I'm still in the dip in form camp, not the lack of class of camp when it comes to Martinez.

I really hope you are right on this.

The worry for me (having been a massive fan of his up until this season) is that this may be linked more directly to physicality.

I think the 'class' is absolutely there, but it feels like he has lost some speed and agility. This seems to have a drastic impact on his form, because of his natural physical limitations.

We may have a situation here where when he's fully fit, he walks into the team BUT when he's carrying any sort of knock, he should be nowhere near the pitch.

I'd still like to have the option, but when we are trying to win titles we need stability and a rock solid 'base-level'.

I'm starting to get concerned that the consistency / 'base-level' will never be there over the course of a season.

Hope I'm wrong because he's a hell of a player when on song.

 

[Brwned]

He’s a great fit for the LCB role. Amorim obviously wants the CBs to play aggressively and anticipate early, and he’s our best CB on that front. He’s comfortable carrying the ball in tight spaces and he’s more capable than the rest at firing passes between the lines. He’s just not in good form and maybe his injury did more damage than we hoped. It doesn’t have anything to do with the system. People just like pointing at systems because they’re a simple explanation for complex, poorly defined problems, and unfamiliar systems are a particularly handy thing to hang all your generalised anxiety onto.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Slow, short, lack of physicality, erractic tackles, lapse of concentration. I don't mind we sell him and reinvest the money in a proper CB for PL.

We need to stop giving players time to come good. Most of time, they only got worse.

 

[ROFLUTION]

He’s a great fit for the LCB role. Amorim obviously wants the CBs to play aggressively and anticipate early, and he’s our best CB on that front. He’s comfortable carrying the ball in tight spaces and he’s more capable than the rest at firing passes between the lines. He’s just not in good form and maybe his injury did more damage than we hoped. It doesn’t have anything to do with the system. People just like pointing at systems because they’re a simple explanation for complex, poorly defined problems, and unfamiliar systems are a particularly handy thing to hang all your generalised anxiety onto.

I'd second that. Lack of focus and coping with the intensity of the game seems to be the problem currently for him.

Obviously there's new things to learn with a new role, but we've seen errors with him at times under Ten Hag this season.

 

[Kaos]

As much as I like him, he falls under the category of 'sell if we receive a sizeable offer' category, likewise for players like Garnacho. The reality is we need to raise considerable funds to actually rebuild to Amorim's strengths, and we're not going to do that binning the Lindelofs, Eriksens and Casemiros of the squad. Would much rather that than regress to old mistakes of giving him a new much improved contract where we struggle to offload him in a few years when it becomes apparent he isn't going to be a mainstay of the team.

 

[lex talionis]

I really hope you are right on this.

The worry for me (having been a massive fan of his up until this season) is that this may be linked more directly to physicality.

I think the 'class' is absolutely there, but it feels like he has lost some speed and agility. This seems to have a drastic impact on his form, because of his natural physical limitations.

We may have a situation here where when he's fully fit, he walks into the team BUT when he's carrying any sort of knock, he should be nowhere near the pitch.

I'd still like to have the option, but when we are trying to win titles we need stability and a rock solid 'base-level'.

I'm starting to get concerned that the consistency / 'base-level' will never be there over the course of a season.

Hope I'm wrong because he's a hell of a player when on song.

I do worry that the injuries may have cut into his quickness and pace. But I also feel that if we can sort out our issues in midfield that we can afford to have a LCB who's a bit off the pace, provided that DeLigt and Yoro are at full strength and form. However, if Martinez has to be relegated to being a squad option for us and we have to bring in a LCB with pace and height, I'm ok with that.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

He’s a great fit for the LCB role. Amorim obviously wants the CBs to play aggressively and anticipate early, and he’s our best CB on that front. He’s comfortable carrying the ball in tight spaces and he’s more capable than the rest at firing passes between the lines. He’s just not in good form and maybe his injury did more damage than we hoped. It doesn’t have anything to do with the system. People just like pointing at systems because they’re a simple explanation for complex, poorly defined problems, and unfamiliar systems are a particularly handy thing to hang all your generalised anxiety onto.

I don't think he's a "great fit" honestly. He's a decent one because he's excellent on the ball and is a world class passer for a CB, but he's going to always struggle when having to defend those wide areas against wingers because he doesn't have the physicality or pace to match them. For now we don't have a choice but to go with him, but when talking about the future I do think he's a player that can be upgraded upon in that spot, especially as we get more comfortable in the system and push higher up the pitch.

 

[tomaldinho1]

WTF this place.

He’s from Argentina, therefore must be just like that other Argentinian.

 

[Fobal]

He’s from Argentina, therefore must be just like that other Argentinian.

It's hard to think of more different players on everything bar determination and nationality

 

[Fobal]

The main problem for any defender in this UNITED, no matter whom, could be Passarella, Figueroa or Beckenbaur it's that:

Upfront: they do not score, they do not pressure properly and in the mid, they do not control the ball, they do not recover and they loose the ball in a very cheap way...this exposes the backline time and again and when a match like this last one the keeper has a nightmare of a game, this shyte gets even worse.

Even if the defenders committ their share of mistakes, this is a constant in United since ages, at some point it becomes worse with every match and nowadays they are trying to implemenet a new system, an even more difficult scenario.

 

[VP89]

The main problem for any defender in this UNITED, no matter whom, could be Passarella, Figueroa or Beckenbaur it's that:

Upfront: they do not score, they do not pressure properly and in the mid, they do not control the ball, they do not recover and they loose the ball in a very cheap way...this exposes the backline time and again and when in the a match like this last one the keeper has a nightmare of a game, this shyte gets even worse.

Even if the defenders committ their share of mistakes, this is a constant in United since ages, at some point it becomes worse with every match and nowadays they are trying to implemenet a new system, even more difficult.

Exactly this for me

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's hard to think of more different players on everything bar determination and nationality

I guess left footed and randomly both from entre Rios but yh agreed. He is El Raton reborn.

 

[Footyislife]

Exactly this for me

Same. Statistically he's an amazing passer, decent tackler and leading the league in interceptions with minimal clearances/give aways. Hurt a lot lately which is concerning.

Yes he's short and it's an issue for corners but why he's marking a tall player in the first place would be an excellent question to ask our new set piece coach who is having a harsh reality check to the most physical league in the world moment.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

I don't think he's a "great fit" honestly. He's a decent one because he's excellent on the ball and is a world class passer for a CB, but he's going to always struggle when having to defend those wide areas against wingers because he doesn't have the physicality or pace to match them. For now we don't have a choice but to go with him, but when talking about the future I do think he's a player that can be upgraded upon in that spot, especially as we get more comfortable in the system and push higher up the pitch.

This. Martinez is very good in a low block, but now we have a manager who wants him to defend larger areas of the pitch which he can’t because he lacks the pace to do it. So now we have a left side which is weak defensively and offensively (Dalot).

 

[Lewnited]

I actually think the role he's being asked to play is exacerbating his weaknesses at the minute. To my eye he's never looked comfortable defending open spaces in the channel and has always been prone to having the ball knocked past him due to his eagerness.

I like to see him compete with De Ligt for the central role, with Shaw and Yoro either side and Maz pushing up into the WB role. This all falls apart because Shaw is made of crisps though, so I would like to see us in the market for an LCB in Jan.

 

[Garethw]

I actually think the role he's being asked to play is exacerbating his weaknesses at the minute. To my eye he's never looked comfortable defending open spaces in the channel and has always been prone to having the ball knocked past him due to his eagerness.

I like to see him compete with De Ligt for the central role, with Shaw and Yoro either side and Maz pushing up into the WB role. This all falls apart because Shaw is made of crisps though, so I would like to see us in the market for an LCB in Jan.

I do be agree with you, but we can’t just keep stockpiling centre backs. If a LCB comes in one of Shaw or Martinez has to be sold first.

 

[tentan]

He's world champion.

So was Kleberson and Varane

 

[Blood Mage]

Slow, short, lack of physicality, erractic tackles, lapse of concentration. I don't mind we sell him and reinvest the money in a proper CB for PL.

We need to stop giving players time to come good. Most of time, they only got worse.

Especially in our case. We could try do a swap deal with Sporting for Inacio maybe.

 

[Brwned]

This. Martinez is very good in a low block, but now we have a manager who wants him to defend larger areas of the pitch which he can’t because he lacks the pace to do it. So now we have a left side which is weak defensively and offensively (Dalot).

Do you think Martinez played in a low block at Ajax, when he was their POTY?

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Do you think Martinez played in a low block at Ajax, when he was their POTY?

No, but the PL is a much more physical league, hence why Gakpo made the transition and Antony did not. You don't face Salah or Saka in the Dutch league.

 

[VP89]

No, but the PL is a much more physical league, hence why Gakpo made the transition and Antony did not. You don't face Salah or Saka in the Dutch league.

Antony is not suffering because of a lack in physicality.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Antony is not suffering because of a lack in physicality.

He is quite sturdy but lacks pace, that's obvious.

 

[DannyCAFC]

I know this has been mooted before and the conversation often nipped in the bud early doors but... in a new system and not as a starter but back-up, could he fill the DM role and cover Ugarte in some games?

I know he played there for half a season with Ajax including some big CL ties (including 2 against Chelsea), it would seem to fit naturally aggressive inclination and he looks more than comfortable enough on the ball. Is the concern that it's too much open space for him to manage? He obviously isn't the most physical given his stature or the quickest to cover ground but these are problems that are arguably even further exacerbated at LCB in this system.

To me he's coming across as somebody that could potential fill in for 10-15 games a season across both positions but too flawed to be a long-term starter anywhere in the XI.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

I know this has been mooted before and the conversation often nipped in the bud early doors but... in a new system and not as a starter but back-up, could he fill the DM role and cover Ugarte in some games?

I know he played there for half a season with Ajax including some big CL ties (including 2 against Chelsea), it would seem to fit naturally aggressive inclination and he looks more than comfortable enough on the ball. Is the concern that it's too much open space for him to manage? He obviously isn't the most physical given his stature or the quickest to cover ground but these are problems that are arguably even further exacerbated at LCB in this system.

To me he's coming across as somebody that could potential fill in for 10-15 games a season across both positions but too flawed to be a long-term starter anywhere in the XI.

He has the ball skills, but as you say he lacks the legs.

 

[Xaviboy]

Do think he hasn't come back the same player after his injury but he is the only defender that can pass a ball through the lines when playing out from back in the squad.