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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) get the depressing job of reviewing United's 3-0 loss at Old Trafford to Liverpool. They discuss what went wrong, Casemiro's day to forget, and the pressure now on Erik Ten Hag. They also take some time to give McTominay a proper farewell, and give their overall thoughts on the Summer Transfer Window.
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Don't disagree with that to a half measure; it should be duly noted when a manager goes against medical staff and risks players he's been categorically told aren't fit, imo.
No, they would have known but there is just a greater risk of reinjury on certain injuries and time doesn't change that always. Welcome to the human body. Doesn't need to be a conspiracy against how the club handled it.
How do you manage or evaluate that though?
I'm not a medical professional but I assume a lot of injuries are not exactly binary in terms of 'you can play and there's no risk' to 'you absolutely cannot play' with some objective scan/medical verdict. Every players' body is different in terms of recovery, pain tolerance, playing style etc that it would fairly impossible to give such a definitive opinions on injuries that aren't literal broken bones and detached muscles/tendons etc. I'm sure there's a lot of middle ground depending on the actual player self-diagnosing with 'I'm not 100% but I'm good to play' and the medical team saying 'we can see some discomfort and risk in this scan and we would advise rest for now'. However, they would and could probably safely say that about every player with a previous injury. What's a manager to do then? Ignore the player, who knows his own body better than anyone else or listen to the medical professionals 'safe' advice and rest every player with discomfort?
Of course I know absolutely jack and have made a lot of assumptions but as a layman, this would be my logical explanation of what the 'truth' is, especially having witnessed Martinez' combative style and elite mentality the past 12 months.
Your last paragraph more frames the kind of personality type you are better off ignoring because I believe they are the least likely to be trusted with their declarations. Of course, it's a minefield and logically, you take it on a case by case basis, but we've seen it far too many times when players jump the gun and if they're lucky, it only costs them a few weeks or a couple of months, and if they're not, it can be an issue for months, years or even something that has to be managed throughout the remainder of their career.
In Martinez's case, it's rather telling that his NT told him nope. They couldn't care for his words, and they know he'd walk through brick walls for them, but that's not what they want outside of very select circumstances (crucial games, usually at the very end of tournaments or qualification) where one/two-offs are risked, with all parties knowing the risk in doing so and making an educated assessment.
Personally, I'd have it so that the medical team can back the player and his assertion. You can feel fine, and you aren't lying to yourself or anyone else, but under duress and the extreme twists, turns and exertions of an actual game, realise things are drastically going off the course you felt they would. It's the medical team that are supposed to better extrapolate and assess the potential of such things happening. You've also got machismo and braving pain to deal with, which is something a lot of athletes have had drilled into them (Jose is an infamous merchant in this department). It can work out, but it can also backfire and injuries are exacerbated, or, new ones develop because another part of the body has had to overcompensate. These things don't just reveal themselves in A to B's; some players are fine for a large portion of their career and then seemingly become sicknotes with 'random' injuries one after the other because of mishandling.
The spectrum with this stuff is absolutely vast. We've seen the likes of Saha and Sturridge become absolutely mentally bound and seemingly needing psychosomatic powers to go out there and play even when OK'd with their self-doubt and mistrust of their body becoming crippling, but on the other end, those who are over eager and what we associate with "soldier-like" or who the team relies upon for their industry etc. doing themselves a real disservice by trying to field before time.
Of course, this is written under the proviso you have a top notch medical team at your club... if you don't, well it's all up in the air.
As an aside, my brain has a tendency of negative association when it comes to bad metatarsal injuries. The two that are in my immediate recall are Beckham's and Rooney's. Both players were never the same post-injury. Beckham started leaping out of tackles towards that foot and rarely drove into tackles with it, and Rooney's mobility and explosiveness took a drop. They both got on with it and found their own ways to deal with the fallout, but it strikes me as one of those injuries that leaves its mark psychologically. Kind of like when extremely fast players constantly have their hamstrings pop, and then won't go beyond a certain speed again (actively limiting themselves on top-end speed) despite supposedly being fully fit. Not trying to doom and gloom this injury, but it's one that must be 100% before we see this guy back out there, for me. It's not one you take a risk with.
I suppose in a weird way it's heartening to have an explanation for his huge dip in form but also have to be worried he might never show that promise again. Despite his detractors he was great last year and likely the best ball playing CB in the league, or close to it. I really hope he can recover fully and we get to see that player again and even better than that as he hits his prime years.
I do think it's hard to blame ETH for this. I have enough issues with the manager this year but I can't pin this on him. This is to do with the absolute mess of recruitment that this club has allowed long before ETH has come in. We kept Jones for 10 years, Maguire was signed at a huge price too, Unfortunately unless you shift Maguire (not ETH's signing and he clearly doesn't want him as a player) then a CB was never a realistic option.
As for most things this is down to letting managers have free runs at building teams. Until we modernise and find the right structure to take over buying players then we'll have a squad that every new manager will need to gut. A half fit Martinez is better than a top performing Maguire so it's understandable the manager hasd to maybe take a risk.
I do think it's hard to blame ETH for this. I have enough issues with the manager this year but I can't pin this on him. This is to do with the absolute mess of recruitment that this club has allowed long before ETH has come in. We kept Jones for 10 years, Maguire was signed at a huge price too, Unfortunately unless you shift Maguire (not ETH's signing and he clearly doesn't want him as a player) then a CB was never a realistic option.
As for most things this is down to letting managers have free runs at building teams. Until we modernise and find the right structure to take over buying players then we'll have a squad that every new manager will need to gut. A half fit Martinez is better than a top performing Maguire so it's understandable the manager hasd to maybe take a risk.
Rough 2nd season.
Good post mate but my original point was more in defence of ETH against your comment of the manager possibly be responsible in this. He very well could but from the outside, I just thought it wasn't likely based on what we seen the past 12 months.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I have my own theories about our injuries and that's mainly conditioning. I just don't think we're as fit/conditioned for the rigours of the type of game we want to play, which along with every other team is about intensity in terms of sprints closing down, making runs, fighting for 1st/2nd/3rd balls, stretching teams with under/overlapping runs and over the defence etc. It's easy for the likes of your Shaws, Martials, Rashfords etc to play one game at 100% intensity in spurts but when we don't dominate the ball on our own terms and then expect players to have that kind of athletic output it's a disaster waiting to happen over the course of a season.
At this point this is the craziest season I've ever witnessed. The combination of injuries and scandals makes me think that anything can happen. Get well soon Licha, I hope the spirit of Vidic possesses Henry.
EDIT: For people arguing against Martinez performance, he was instrumental to us winning a "trophy" and was one of our best players by a long shot last season.
EDIT: For people arguing against Martinez performance, he was instrumental to us winning a "trophy" and was one of our best players by a long shot last season.
Not a good sign when a player is out for months, comes back, then within WEEKS has aggravated the injury again. Like this could be recurring for his whole career now.
I really hate managers playing injured players. He’s been way off it and that’ll be why. He’s playing through injury. Just makes things worse.don’t let him back until he’s fully recovered.
You can always tell who has/hasn’t played competitive sports in discussions on here about injuries. Or, at least, who has/hasn’t dealt with injuries in competitive sport. Team physios don’t have a magic diagnostic wand to wave over a limb and get a “fitness out of ten” score. It’s extremely easy for any player to minimise their symptoms and play through pain if they’re tough and determined to get out on the pitch. Happens all the time, at every level of sport. And most of the time no lasting damage is done. So nobody is in the wrong here. Other than Martinez arguably being too brave for his own good. But I’d much prefer our players to be too brave than the opposite extreme.
When did that happen?
Think this shows why we shouldnt judge players performances over just a couple of games at the start of the season.
I thought his last game was very poor, bu that his start to the season though not to last years standards wasnt so bad, not as bad as other players and that he was being overly analysed.
Yet in this thread, saw loads of post going back to his size, people saying proof he isnt that good as they had said the season before etc etc.
He was quality last season, just hope ths isnt an unjury that plagues him for a long period of time as for me though one season is too early to judge he showed signs of not just being the best defender we had signed in terms of a long term career for some time, but one of the best players we have signed in a long time
I thought his last game was very poor, bu that his start to the season though not to last years standards wasnt so bad, not as bad as other players and that he was being overly analysed.
Yet in this thread, saw loads of post going back to his size, people saying proof he isnt that good as they had said the season before etc etc.
He was quality last season, just hope ths isnt an unjury that plagues him for a long period of time as for me though one season is too early to judge he showed signs of not just being the best defender we had signed in terms of a long term career for some time, but one of the best players we have signed in a long time
The decision not to invest in another centre back during the summer (regardless of the Maguire situation) looks a real smart one now doesn’t it.
On the other hand, the decision to give Evans a one year deal looks much smarter.
And that’s fine if the player has a broken thumb. Clearly this injury is not something you should play through pain with as an athlete. If he’s completely hidden the pain from the medical team then that’s on him, but if they’ve let him take pain killers or whatever, they would have to shoulder some of the blame.
The risk of playing with certain knocks or strains is that your knee swells up for a few days after the game, this one seems pretty clear that the risk is you go back to square one with the injury, and of course two breaks to the same place is more dangerous, long term, than one.
I think people would be lot more accepting if there wasn’t a massive injury list at the moment. It could be a coincidence, but it doesn’t look great for the medical team.
Just saw this now. I have no words for the injury crisis anymore. Never seen anything like this.
Such a shame for Licha, but it's been obvious that he wasn't 100% fit. Hope he can recover 100% from this injury, so that it doesn't bother him every season.
Time for Harry to step up and Varane to stay fit.
Such a shame for Licha, but it's been obvious that he wasn't 100% fit. Hope he can recover 100% from this injury, so that it doesn't bother him every season.
Time for Harry to step up and Varane to stay fit.
Come in Harry,all is forgiven
I haven’t read anything about a second fracture? Broken bones are one injury where the medical team do have a “magic diagnostic wand” It’s called an x-Ray (or MRI)
Otherwise, it’s not an exact science and a avoiding re-injury is hugely reliant on players not wanting to tough out a niggle when they return form a spell out of the game. Which is usually not a problem. And, to be clear, I’ve no issues with players toughing out niggles. If at least some of them didn’t do that our annual injury crisis would be even worse
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Eth is going to have to look at getting a new lcb and Rcb next summer with martinez and varane injury issues
Apparently, he was playing on painkillers and his injury hadn't healed completely. He is having a second operation, which will sideline him until next year.
Pure negligence rushing him back. Can't say I'm surprised though.
What is wrong with this club. How was this not detected earlier.
Why oh why did we rush him back. Hopefully he gets the time he needs now and comes back 100%. We need him
Markus Babbel has said a few days ago that the most players are playing with painkillers and he has played just 5-10 matches in his whole career!!!! without pain in his body.
To blame just the club is wrong....the players are scared to say the truth of their bodies.
To blame just the club is wrong....the players are scared to say the truth of their bodies.
I definitely haven't much of a clue about sports science or injuries but I remember a few years back when Rashford was playing through the pain barrier with a bad back and then ended up with a double stress fracture when he played against Wolves. At the time I couldn't believe he or the club was risking playing with the injury he had. Not saying this is the case with Martinez but there must be some occasions where the club/medical team can overrule the player? I'm glad that Hojlund for example was eased in slowly.
It might just be one of those injuries where there is frequently a lot of post-op, or post-healing, pain and discomfort. And the majority of the time that’s all it is- pain which a player plays through, which slowly subsides. I do get the impression from looking at ten Hag’s teams that he’s not much of a rester of players unless he’s been told they are categorically unavailable. A lot of managers right now seem more aware of what they call ‘red zones’ in a players fitness. But whether that was directly relevant here, who knows.
Even when he was playing he wasnt the same with his defending. This seems to explain a fair bit about why he looked hesitant and less aggressive than before his injury. He wasnt playing better than Varane and Lindelof playing injured so what a big cock up its been playing him before hes ready and now we have to wait again.
I think we’ll see Shaw at CB again this season. Really worried about Licha.
I’d say when imaging shows an obvious bony defect (which was the case with Hojlund) then you can make decisions that aren’t based purely on reported symptoms by the player. If the X-ray/MRI are normal, you’re relying almost entirely on how the player says they feel, assuming they’ve followed the rehab protocol through.
That’s the thing about this specific injury. Martinez wasn’t rushed back. He was given more than enough time to rehab fully from the fracture/procedure he went through. It’s just shite luck that he aggravated (or re-injured?) his damaged metatarsal after his first few games back. What a lot of people are refusing to accept here is that injuries are unpredictable. You can do everything right and still end up back at square one, through no fault of anyone involved. I can relate to this because it’s happened to me.
Mourinho made Smalling play through a broken toe. It's pretty commonplace in elite sports. I'd by very surprised if ETH didn't push him to return sooner, rather than try and prevent him.
Ajax forum says he won' t play another match in 2023. At least three months out.
Ten Hag just confirmed surgery.
Lovely.
Lovely.
It's shit, but hopefully the surgery (and full recovery) brings us back the Martinez we had for most of last season.
We had a worse injury crisis under Van Gaal. It must be a Dutch thing. Seriously though, Van Gaal was working the players pretty hard in training (double training sessions) and I'll not be suprised if ten Hag has done the same.
Remember this side vs Arsenal and we won the game
Rashford was an 18yr old kid, I didn't even know he existed until that week.
Then this is 100% on the club, and more specifically Ten Hag who probably made the call.
Feel this needs to be quoted and repeated but it wont help so much..
It's crazy, I broke my foot in a very similar fashion a few weeks after licha and i'm nowhere near ready to run never mind play football. I just assumed cos he's an athlete with the best medical care that he was able to return so quickly. But it seems they've rushed him back
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