AlexUTD
Full Member
Martinez had one bad moment in the game against Mee on the goal but i did not think he deserved to be subbed.
A question I have for those who believe height isn’t an issue for a CB….Why does every team not just use shorter CBs who are great on the ball in that case?
They would have better centre of gravity and be more agile travelling with the ball. I’ve not heard a valid justification for height not mattering yet.
Look at his highlights. He was not bullied in duels. The goals are mistakes from the Gea, Ronaldo and the whole team.
Look at the corner and you‘ll see Martinez was moving in the opposite direction when the header came across goal.
Specifically, Frank’s tactic of targeting Martinez did not work. The pressing did, and our own failures.
I think height is a bigger issue in PL compared with other leagues, simply because it is the most physical league. Also, once we play Martinez, it almost always necessitates that the other defenders in the back are 6 feet+.
Lindelof , he is nothing in the air.Who’s better in the air, him or Lindelof?
the whole defensive unit has been a joke. 6 goals conceded against middle table teams in 2 games. He is a victim of his managers decision to splash 60m on ANOTHER CBwhilst neglecting our midfield, all while our defence is just as bad as ever. Its mostly about timingThank goodness for some sense on this thread.
I was honestly thinking I was losing the plot with the endless criticism on this guy. I am seeing this player doing barely anything wrong and a lot right yet he was basically blamed for the defeat.
Still maintain his position and subsequent slip meannt that even if he was 6.4 he wasnt getting that ball for the 3rd goal.
It is lazy punditry and a clear agenda to rip into a new Utd foreign signing especially as he is an ex ETH player.
Had barely heard of the guy before he signed if Im honest but I would love it for him to have a great season to get it right up the lot of them.
Look at his highlights. He was not bullied in duels. The goals are mistakes from the Gea, Ronaldo and the whole team.
Look at the corner and you‘ll see Martinez was moving in the opposite direction when the header came across goal.
Specifically, Frank’s tactic of targeting Martinez did not work. The pressing did, and our own failures.
He was nowhere near the ball when it came to the far post, a tall defender would not have gotten to it either.Lisandro got bullied on the corner kick goal, but other than that he was decent -- definitely not in danger of being deemed a flop, not yet at least.
Exactly. This goal had nothing to do with his height. Martinez saw that Toney was winning the duel before and saw that the far corner was open so he decided to cover the far corner which is quite a normal reaction. The ball was however not headed towards the goal, but squared and then he simply was out of position. This had nothing to do with his height. Sure if you are really critical you could argue that he made the wrong choice in trying to cover the goalline instead of his man. I wouldn't agree, but at least I could understand that argument. The height argument is however pure nonsense.He was nowhere near the ball when it came to the far post, a tall defender would not have gotten to it either.
Exactly. This goal had nothing to do with his height. Martinez saw that Toney was winning the duel before and saw that the far corner was open so he decided to cover the far corner which is quite a normal reaction. The ball was however not headed towards the goal, but squared and then he simply was out of position. This had nothing to do with his height. Sure if you are really critical you could argue that he made the wrong choice in trying to cover the goalline instead of his man. I wouldn't agree, but at least I could understand that argument. The height argument is however pure nonsense.
The vid about his aerial duels is brilliant. Shows all the critics are completely bullshitting. It's just people who want to say 'see I was always right', without even looking at facts. Just stupid statements based on nothing but prejudice. Martinez wins almost all of his aerial duels which is clearly outlined also in that vid. The same conclusion could be made from these type of video's in his Ajax days (CL level).
I won't say he's not vulnerable in air. I think he is at set pieces and crosses. However not by 'bullying' as is being suggested. People are suggesting it will be easy to target Martinez by just hoofing it long towards the tall striker targeting Martinez. These vids, supported by the stats, basicly nullifies that statements. Teams can do that all day long and they won't be successfull with it. Martinez can deal with that easily.
He will however be more vulnerable with set pieces and crosses. The difference? For these set pieces and crosses there's less time to position yourself and deal with the situation. The height difference then becomes a bigger factor. In the long ball from the back scenario Martinez has time to position himself and actually bully the attacker (by pushing, pulling shirt) before the ball arrives and then outsmart him. That is what he does very well and how he wins most of these duels.
That still leaves him with vulnerability at crosses and set pieces. However the whole idea is that the team will be dominant and therefore won't have to cope with set pieces and crosses of the opponent very often. If Martinez has to defend in his own box most of the time then yes he will be vulnerable and yes his height will be too much of a problem in the end. However that's exactly what Ten Hag does not want. He wants to defend away from his box. Keep the opponent far away from goal. Like Liverpool and City barely allow their opponents to get into their box. That's the whole idea and Martinez can help with that because he knows how to aggresively defend far away from his goal and he's very solid in possession. That is why Ten Hag bought him, not becasue he's the best player in defending set pieces. The idea is that United won't allow many set pieces for the opponents. Now clearly United aren't capable to deliver that at this moment and United even seem quite far away from that. However it;s logical Ten Hag has brought players in that are able to do what he ultimately wants to achieve.
The critisizm on Martinez is however way OTT. His height has not been a true problem in these two matches at all. I'm not saying he's been spectactular, but blaming things on his height is just utter nonsense and nothing else but prejudice and people trying to use everything to confirm their early opinions. My personal opinion is that Ten Hag took him off at half time for one to protect him for more of this nonsense. Moreover I seriously think he took him off becasue he knows he's going to play Martinez against Liverpool anyway. My gut feeling is that he left Maguire on for another half together with Varane so they could both take the opportunity to show who should start next to Martinez next week. The match was already lost anyway.
Who’s better in the air, him or Lindelof?
Serie A managers back then didn't commit many players in attack, and at the same time preferred comfortable number advantage in defense. So it means it's easier for their managers to assign the taller partner of someone like Cannavaro to man mark a lone attacker. Teams were not set up for high pressing, which means they didn't want to just launch long ball to lone attackers surrounded by several opposition defenders. Because even a won contested duel could likely end up in possession turnover without support attacker to win the second ball. Italian football, and Serie A has been lagging behind in its youth formation regarding physicality development.The height is something the journalist and pundits were always going to jump on pretty lazy and very obvious. Clearly a disadvantage, but does his positives outweigh it only time will tell.
Don’t forget Canovaro was 5’9, granted played in Serie A and La Liga and was goat of cb, but surely if height was such a flaw regardless of how good the CB was opposition teams would have always exploited it regardless of the league. Especially Seria A which is very pragmatic
He's been the only positive thing this season so far. No idea why everyone else is losing their shit tbh.
Was scared to read this thread, great to see most posters still have their sense.
A serious question, what was he doing on the goal line? Was that some kind of genius defending?He was nowhere near the ball when it came to the far post, a tall defender would not have gotten to it either.
Maguire is though. He is terrible in possession. When a little bit of pressure is put on him he hoofs it long, into the stands or puts his teammates in a problematic situation. With Maguire in there, it's always going to be an uphill challenge withstanding pressure from the opponent.Is it just me that thinks that neither centre back has really been the main problem with the side?
I'm not going to say they've played well but I think Maguire and Licha have probably done about as well as you could reasonably expect a centre half pairing to do when they're playing together for the first time, behind a midfield that STILL does not contain a natural defensive midfielder, and in front of a goalkeeper who refuses to leave his line, can't distribute well and might as well be throwing the ball into his own net.
That was a normal reaction. Toney was winning the header before easily. The far post was completely open. Martinez expected Toney to go for goal, which wasn't a very strange expectation at all. The problem was not that Martinez made that choice. He shouldn't have been in that position anyway. In the end Toney was marked by Eriksen before the corner was taken, which was obviously a complete mismatch. That's where that goal went wrong. I'm pretty sure that's where EtHs focus will be after analysing that goal.A serious question, what was he doing on the goal line? Was that some kind of genius defending?
Glad somebody put that together. I knew from watching the game the narrative that he got bullied was absolute rubbish.
Twice there he's throwing Mbuemo and Toney to the floor in a physical duel I don't even think he lost a header from a long ball.
His performance was absolutely fine, but typically because he was the nearest player on the 3rd goal it all got blamed towards him.
This is why I really wish Gary Neville stopped commentating on our games. He cannot help but cause more damage with his stupid anecdotes
The area he was covering was also open when he left it to go on the goal line? And imo it was much bigger potential danger than the goal line. In truth I agree there should have been another one on the line like most corners, but I think Lisandro made a feck up from the start.That was a normal reaction. Toney was winning the header before easily. The far post was completely open. Martinez expected Toney to go for goal, which wasn't a very strange expectation at all. The problem was not that Martinez made that choice. He shouldn't have been in that position anyway. In the end Toney was marked by Eriksen before the corner was taken, which was obviously a complete mismatch. That's where that goal went wrong.
nothing bias about it, just watch the games. I'll call a stick a stick, and I didn't think Martinez played badly against Brentford at all.I'm sorry but this reeks of new player bias. Had Maguire played this he has the first two games he'd have been slaughtered.
I don't even rate Maguire and he's been better than Martinez so far this season. Not saying much obviously but I think Martinez had looked more shaky.
As I said in an earlier post, your argument is at least something I can understand the debate for rather than the stupid height argument which just had no influence in this goal. However as mentioned I don't agree with your point of view. He's in a position where he has to choose and in the end his choice doesn't work out. He shouldn't be in a position to choose there though and thats where it essentially goes wrong imo. You're always going to be on your backfoot when you have to make choices in these situations. But lets just to agree to disagree here.The area he was covering was also open when he left it to go on the goal line? And imo it was much bigger potential danger than the goal line. In truth I agree there should have been another one on the line like most corners, but I think Lisandro made a feck up from the start.
nothing bias about it, just watch the games. I'll call a stick a stick, and I didn't think Martinez played badly against Brentford at all.
He actually had a worse game against Brighton.
Can't disagree the whole team was bad, but to point out Martinez as one of the bigger problems just wasn't true at all.Well he did as the whole team were shocking. Nobody above a 4 out of 10 for me.
Can't disagree the whole team was bad, but to point out Martinez as one of the bigger problems just wasn't true at all.
Out of the 4 goals only 1 was a very extremely small portion. Apart from that he did everything that was required. He cleared loads of crosses, won plenty of headers and battled hard.
Thanks to De Gea, Eriksen and Maguire it all shit the bed.
"so much so that he's been targeted by Potter and Frank" - no that is because he is short, he could've had a stormer of a game against Brighton and I am sure Frank, recognising the height advantage of his players, would've had the same tactic.New players bias. That's what it is.
First 3 / 4 games of Wan Bissaka I had this debate with people. They were over rating him because he was new and fresh.
Martinez might well become a good signing but he's been incredibly poor the first two games. So much so that he's been targeted by Potter and Frank.