6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 20
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
No idea whether he'll end up being good enough, but "incredibly poor" is hyperbolic nonsense.
To me his defending for the 3rd goals was even more worrying for the same exact reason we agree on, it was not just about height but a rather poor defensive play, and we paid 60m pounds in hope that we get an improvement on what we already had. The height problem? IMO we will definitely have one, some can say even the third goal was avoidable with a dominant defender in the air, and you need to be realistic and admit that it's not that ridiculous claim. Mee scored a simple tap in header on the goal line and our 60m CB did not even come close to putting a contest, Mee held him off with ease.
It really isn't. The whole team has been incredibly poor in the first two games.
Take those blinkers off.
Mee didn't hold him off. Martinez chose to defend the goal line as he saw the danger there, which was very logical in my view. He then was out of position to defend Mee when the ball went square rather than towards the goal and therefore he couldn't reach the ball anymore. That whole goal had nothing to do with Martinez' height or him being outmuscled. An organizational clusterfeck was the reason for that goal.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Martinez is vulnerable with crosses and set pieces as I also mentioned in this post. However this doesn't mean that this was actually the case this time around. Moreover, as I mentioned in that post he's part of the bigger plan and that plan does not consist of defending too many set pieces and crosses. Just like City and Liverpool don't have to.
What is this? Evidence to show his height isnt such a problem as it is made out to be? You cant do that, you just need to repeat the narrative that his height is a massive problem and that he has been incredibly poor and a total waste of money
Is anyone else worried that he’s not equipped to play CB in the Premier League, that every team will target him, and that we’ve therefore essentially wasted £60m if that’s our plan?
Decent WUM
Wasn’t intended that way, its a genuine concern of mine. Hopefully will prove to be unfounded.
Have you read any of the thread? Genuinely thought it was a sarcastic post it’s been discussed that much. I don’t think it’s a particularly legitimate concern from what I’ve seen. He’s very aggressive with a good leap on him. It reminds me of when every game we used to go into with Blind and people would always say “he will get bullied today” and then he proceeded to pocket the striker easily. Most notably I remember people saying Lukaku would destroy him only for Blind to win every single duel both on the ground and in the air.
My biggest concern in the first couple of games is his game reading as that’s looked more problematic but I’m also not sure it’s possible to look perfect in that department while playing in such a chaotic team and in front of such a pathetic keeper.
No he hasn't been incredibly poor. That's just a biased perception from a set of fans who want them to be proved right because they raised the height issues.
Why don‘t you watch the highlights?
No, I‘m not concerned at all about it. However I an concerned about people parroting nonsense spouted by the media.
On set pieces, you can pair other taller players on the biggest aerial threads. He seems to defend long balls during play just fine.
I am more concerned with the partnership Maguire/Martinez. They need to work together better than they have so far.
Out of the two I already rate Martinez higher.
I somewhat agree that Maguire was a problem in possession. In the Maguire thread I mentioned that his slowness on the ball was extremely frustrating, and the hospital pass to Eriksen typified that.
I cannot agree, however, with your assessment of the fourth Brentford goal. In context, we'd just taken a corner and were 3-0 down. In that scenario, it makes absolutely no sense for both centre halfs to be sitting deep. This is especially so when, had Maguire been sat deep, you'd have had both him and Licha occupying just Toney. Again to suggest that's what should be happening when we're already 3-0 down is just nonsense for me. There are three primary issues on the fourth goal for me:
- Whoever played the long ball out from the back was not closed down well enough. Fred and Sancho are both close to the man and yet he's allowed to play that ball.
- Licha allows Toney to peel off of him too easily. Again, say Maguire should've been back all you like, if you watch the goal it is clear that Martinez is the defender told to stay back from the corner and it is therefore his job to deal with Toney. I understand that he's a new signing, and to be fair this is by far the least bad of the three errors here, but you cannot just pin every mistake Martinez makes on Maguire because he's the new signing.
- Shaw doesn't track back fast enough. Mbeumo is anticipating the counter attack quicker and thus gets the run on Shaw. Shaw needs to be anticipating better there.
To my mind, the biggest mistake here is the initial lack of forward pressing. When you're already 3-0 down, you need your team to be pushing higher and taking risks if you want to have any chance of salvaging a result. To do this effectively requires your forwards to press and prevent the long ball over the top. Rashford and Sancho completely failed to do so here.
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I really don't see why he's been singled out. Put him with Varane and see the improvement, and if we actually sign a fecking DM to provide some protection for the back 4 well dramatically improve
And don't want to call out the real issue in the defence that is Maguire, shaw and De gea
If you pause the video at 1.32 then you can see the ball is mid-air when Martinez has body to body contact with Mee, so it's a straight 50/50 ball between the two and Martinez doesn't come close to winning it or putting Mee off.
If Lindelof conceded that he'd be getting slated let's be honest.
Now, is it a big deal if a defender loses 1 duel? Of course not. It becomes a big deal when it's a consistent weakness that is likely to occur again and again. It's too early to say definitively he'll be exposed too regularly in a similar manner, but it's a fairly logical conclusion that short players cannot consistently out-compete much taller players who are strong in the air - hence why no other team in the league play a back 4 with a 5ft9 centre back. A lot of people predicted this in the summer and it took 1 and a half games for us to concede due to this.
To his credit, he dealt with the long balls better.
If Lindelof conceded that he'd be getting slated let's be honest.
Now, is it a big deal if a defender loses 1 duel? Of course not. It becomes a big deal when it's a consistent weakness that is likely to occur again and again. It's too early to say definitively he'll be exposed too regularly in a similar manner, but it's a fairly logical conclusion that short players cannot consistently out-compete much taller players who are strong in the air - hence why no other team in the league play a back 4 with a 5ft9 centre back. A lot of people predicted this in the summer and it took 1 and a half games for us to concede due to this.
To his credit, he dealt with the long balls better.
That‘s bs mate, he gets there too late to do anything. He would have to give away a penalty to stop this goal.
Sorry I can't believe you've watched the clip if that's the conclusion you've drawn.
Pause it at 1.32 and the ball is way above the height of the crossbar and Martinez already has body to body contact with Mee. He was there in plenty of time.
Mee didn't even jump to win the header.
I'm sorry but I almost completely disagree. I even wachted the highlights from MOTD again to see if I recalled the situation correctly. I found out that I did. If you're in the opportunity to see MOTD again I recommend you watch it again. If you're not and Ican try to make pictures on my phone and show you how the situation was before the long ball. Then you'll clearly see Maguire being close to him just before the long ball. Micah Richards literally said in his analysis 'Maguire let's him run' and he was right.
In the analysis afterwards it's so clear to see that Maguire just lets Toney run away from him. Martinez is never suppose to mark Toney there. Shaw is with Mbuemo, Toney is near Maguire on the right side and Martinez is like 5-10 metres behind them to cover the centre of the pitch. Thats his clear role there to be the extra man and cover the middle of the pitch.
Maguire just lets Toney run away from him and that forces Martinez out of position whilst he should have been able to stay in the centre and take out the cross there. This goal is 100% on Maguire. It's also popular to critisize Shaw these days and those people I'm sure will be blaming him for that goal as well. I also don't agree with that. Losing out a sprint of this kind of distance against a faster attacker in a counterattack is hardly a disgrace. That simply happens. Not everyone is as fast as the other and you can't expect that.
As mentioned, the way to defend against that (counterattacks and speedy opponents) is by having a proper organization. This would have been the case if Maguire had stayed with Toney and Martinez then could have defended the space in the middle and take out the cross to Mbuemo. That was how this situatuon should have been defended.
The one thing I do agree with you upon is that there could have been more pressure on the initial pass (long ball) as well. That was too easy indeed. Nevertheless Maguire should never have let Toney run away from him.
Mee gets an arm on him but is already falling backwards to adjust for the header, Martinez is out of position because he is also trying to get back and cover the goal line, he gets caught in two minds, it isn't an issue of size.
Is it out of the question Martinez play DM? His ability on the ball and technical skill seem pretty good. His work rate seems good. A lot of very good DMs have been short, and weak in aerial battles.
Yeah, I'll say I've watched the goal again from a different angle and the initial angle I watched didn't really showcase Maguire's error. Having seen the second angle I'm happy to admit I was incorrect to absolve Maguire of blame, and also incorrect to apportion blame to Martinez. Maguire should, as you pointed out, have been tracking Toney's run and completely fails to do so. (I also just noticed I confused Rashford and Fred in my initial post - had a bit of a mare honestly!
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Fair play!Yeah, I'll say I've watched the goal again from a different angle and the initial angle I watched didn't really showcase Maguire's error. Having seen the second angle I'm happy to admit I was incorrect to absolve Maguire of blame, and also incorrect to apportion blame to Martinez. Maguire should, as you pointed out, have been tracking Toney's run and completely fails to do so. (I also just noticed I confused Rashford and Fred in my initial post - had a bit of a mare honestly!
I think it will depend on both Maguire and Varane stepping up and not being able to secure a DM before the transfer window closes.
From the top or from the bottom?
This!
I think both sides aren't necessary at odds. All valid takes. He's far more impressive in the air than first thought but the goal was an instance where it limited him. With a higher standing reach he might have challenged that aerially but probably didn't feel confident and focused on pushing his man off his equilibrium. We'll get a better feel for his limitations in the coming months eg getting pinned under his man or needing momentum to time a leap. I think there's more to him than just saying he's bad in the air or that there are no drawback or limitations to defending at that height. We'll still have to figure out if it's something we're okay to live with long term.
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New player bias is absolutely a thing where people overrate new players, but Martinez (probably more than any other player I can think of) seems to be on the receiving end of the opposite. So many people making out that he's been far worse than he actually has been.
Your 'incredible poor' is a perfect example. Yes he has been targeted, but that was a game-plan that those managers had going in to the matches, not something they decided to do during the match because they were getting any joy. In reality it hasn't worked as much as people make out. Welbeck got the better of him a few times in the first match, but against Brentford his aggressiveness and positioning meant he actually came out on top in almost all the clashes. That third goal was really the only time he got found out.
His size (combined with not being particularly fast) is a weakness and there's no doubt it will cost us at times. What we don't know yet is whether he can minimise that to the point that the advantages that he brings significantly outweigh the negatives.
Problem is our CMs are not good enough to win second or third ball. Brighton and Brentford were counting on that factor more.
Our midfield was quite clearly the problem in both games. And some posters are complaining about Casemiro when we're clearly desperate for someone like him.
he does which makes the "he got bullied " or he had a poor game laughable tbh.
It's quite clear to see who actually knows what they're talking about and who just goes with the narrative on here.
Yeah, Martinez in particular will benefit hugely from the addition of Casemiro.
Although I'm not particularly happy about the Casemiro move from 'a severe lack of any kind of long term plan' point of view, I think Martinez has a much higher chance of success with a player like him stationed in front of the defence than if we'd have got De Jong instead.
Early days, but what's the early assessment on Martinez v Romero (Spurs)? A Spurs mate is giving me shit that Romero is vastly superior to Martinez.
I’d like to see him in midfield with Casemiro next to him. It could work. Casemiro and Martinez infront of our defence with Eriksen infront of them.
That's not progressive football though. 2 defensive minded midfielders.
That's your mistake right there.
I thought he did ok against Brentford, but when he was hooked I accepted that I must be wrong.
However, if you look at what Ajax did to counter him being targeted, they dropped a midfielder right in front of the opposition who was playing against Martinez for goal kicks etc. So between the two, one would usually sweep up. Against Brighton it failed because that man was Fred, and he just wasn't getting close enough, along with Welbeck having a very good first touch to lay the ball off first time or spin Martinez. Perhaps Casemiro would do a better job there and teams will give up trying it.
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