Martinez had one bad moment in the game against Mee on the goal but i did not think he deserved to be subbed.
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Martinez had one bad moment in the game against Mee on the goal but i did not think he deserved to be subbed.
It's not that height isn't an issue at all. There are certainly disadvantages to being a shorter CB and you'd generally prefer they're taller. But most CBs have some weakness, it's about how much that weakness actually matters in your particular team relative to their strengths.
As for why other teams don't generally use similarly short CBs, a few reasons.
1) Martinez is particularly aggressive and good in the air for his size. If he wasn't, he'd be more of a weakness. So it's not like the argument is that any 5ft 9 defender could manage it, we're accepting that Martinez is something of an outlier.
2) The style of play of the team (or in our case what we want the style of play to be) is partly what minimises the risk involved. It's one thing for sides like Ajax/City to care less about aerial dominance when they own possession, spend most of the game pinning the opposition back, are good at winning second balls and concede few set-pieces. But the vast majority of teams won't have that advantage, so their defenders will come under more pressure in that regard.
3) Availability. Traditionally you needed to be tall to be a CB, people think you need to be tall to be a CB, for most teams you probably do need to be tall to be a CB, therefore very few short CBs make it to the top level of football. When the overwhelming majority of CBs at the top level are tall then the overwhelming majority of CBs bought by top sides will also be tall, even if they were one of the teams that didn't really need to prioritise height.
Has anyone mentioned his height yet?
Totally agree with you mate.
Im not worried about Martinez,when we have more technical and more press resistant players around him he wil help us up to another level.
Firmino / Jota shouldn't offer him a huge physical contest tbf but they are both incredibly clever players who could cause him other problems.
Varane for me can't be benched. He's our best defender on paper and also most experienced. If Maguire has to play as he's captain then for me we either play 3CB's or Martinez needs to play in DM.
This Martinez Maguire partnership isn't going to work. We already can see that. They look a total mess.
Varane for me can't be benched. He's our best defender on paper and also most experienced. If Maguire has to play as he's captain then for me we either play 3CB's or Martinez needs to play in DM.
This Martinez Maguire partnership isn't going to work. We already can see that. They look a total mess.
I think height is a bigger issue in PL compared with other leagues, simply because it is the most physical league. Also, once we play Martinez, it almost always necessitates that the other defenders in the back are 6 feet+.
This is really not an issue, except if there is a lack of height across the whole team.
Watch the highlights above, Martinez did fine in aerial duels.
Who’s better in the air, him or Lindelof?
Lindelof
, he is nothing in the air.The journos are out there to destroy his confidence. Sub also didn't help. Time to stand up for his support guys. He is a good player.
i know he's been signed as a cb, but as things stand he's out best DM.
Thank goodness for some sense on this thread.
I was honestly thinking I was losing the plot with the endless criticism on this guy. I am seeing this player doing barely anything wrong and a lot right yet he was basically blamed for the defeat.
Still maintain his position and subsequent slip meannt that even if he was 6.4 he wasnt getting that ball for the 3rd goal.
It is lazy punditry and a clear agenda to rip into a new Utd foreign signing especially as he is an ex ETH player.
Had barely heard of the guy before he signed if Im honest but I would love it for him to have a great season to get it right up the lot of them.
I was honestly thinking I was losing the plot with the endless criticism on this guy. I am seeing this player doing barely anything wrong and a lot right yet he was basically blamed for the defeat.
Still maintain his position and subsequent slip meannt that even if he was 6.4 he wasnt getting that ball for the 3rd goal.
It is lazy punditry and a clear agenda to rip into a new Utd foreign signing especially as he is an ex ETH player.
Had barely heard of the guy before he signed if Im honest but I would love it for him to have a great season to get it right up the lot of them.
the whole defensive unit has been a joke. 6 goals conceded against middle table teams in 2 games. He is a victim of his managers decision to splash 60m on ANOTHER CBwhilst neglecting our midfield, all while our defence is just as bad as ever. Its mostly about timing
I would say Frank’s tactics did work. Even in those edited twitter videos you can see how it worked. They time and time again played long balls over our pressing attackers, which means our press didn’t work at all. Many of those long balls enabled them to move the play from their box in to our half of the pitch. They got throw ins, won second balls, won the first ball. Absolutely not all the time, but several times. This is what you can achieve with “Frank’s tactics”, an easy way to play through our press with minimum risk and big chance to move up the play to our side and then apply intense press to win the ball.
This is of course not only Martinez fault. We failed to apply good press, and we are poor at winning the second ball. However with someone good in the air it is easier to win the second ball. Now we will probably need to compensate by playing McT.
Personally I’m not writing him off, and we must allow him time to get in to it, but let’s not pretend he’s been a success. He’s been pretty poor. Not 0/10 as MEN gave him and Shaw, but pretty poor.
Worst so far in defence imo has been the pairing of Maguire and Martinez. I really don’t see how that could ever work well.
Lisandro got bullied on the corner kick goal, but other than that he was decent -- definitely not in danger of being deemed a flop, not yet at least.
He hasn't been good, but he also did not have a pre-season and frankly the whole club is a mess right now. Hope we can see him in the middle.
He was nowhere near the ball when it came to the far post, a tall defender would not have gotten to it either.
Exactly. This goal had nothing to do with his height. Martinez saw that Toney was winning the duel before and saw that the far corner was open so he decided to cover the far corner which is quite a normal reaction. The ball was however not headed towards the goal, but squared and then he simply was out of position. This had nothing to do with his height. Sure if you are really critical you could argue that he made the wrong choice in trying to cover the goalline instead of his man. I wouldn't agree, but at least I could understand that argument. The height argument is however pure nonsense.
The vid about his aerial duels is brilliant. Shows all the critics are completely bullshitting. It's just people who want to say 'see I was always right', without even looking at facts. Just stupid statements based on nothing but prejudice. Martinez wins almost all of his aerial duels which is clearly outlined also in that vid. The same conclusion could be made from these type of video's in his Ajax days (CL level).
I won't say he's not vulnerable in air. I think he is at set pieces and crosses. However not by 'bullying' as is being suggested. People are suggesting it will be easy to target Martinez by just hoofing it long towards the tall striker targeting Martinez. These vids, supported by the stats, basicly nullifies that statements. Teams can do that all day long and they won't be successfull with it. Martinez can deal with that easily.
He will however be more vulnerable with set pieces and crosses. The difference? For these set pieces and crosses there's less time to position yourself and deal with the situation. The height difference then becomes a bigger factor. In the long ball from the back scenario Martinez has time to position himself and actually bully the attacker (by pushing, pulling shirt) before the ball arrives and then outsmart him. That is what he does very well and how he wins most of these duels.
That still leaves him with vulnerability at crosses and set pieces. However the whole idea is that the team will be dominant and therefore won't have to cope with set pieces and crosses of the opponent very often. If Martinez has to defend in his own box most of the time then yes he will be vulnerable and yes his height will be too much of a problem in the end. However that's exactly what Ten Hag does not want. He wants to defend away from his box. Keep the opponent far away from goal. Like Liverpool and City barely allow their opponents to get into their box. That's the whole idea and Martinez can help with that because he knows how to aggresively defend far away from his goal and he's very solid in possession. That is why Ten Hag bought him, not becasue he's the best player in defending set pieces. The idea is that United won't allow many set pieces for the opponents. Now clearly United aren't capable to deliver that at this moment and United even seem quite far away from that. However it;s logical Ten Hag has brought players in that are able to do what he ultimately wants to achieve.
The critisizm on Martinez is however way OTT. His height has not been a true problem in these two matches at all. I'm not saying he's been spectactular, but blaming things on his height is just utter nonsense and nothing else but prejudice and people trying to use everything to confirm their early opinions. My personal opinion is that Ten Hag took him off at half time for one to protect him for more of this nonsense. Moreover I seriously think he took him off becasue he knows he's going to play Martinez against Liverpool anyway. My gut feeling is that he left Maguire on for another half together with Varane so they could both take the opportunity to show who should start next to Martinez next week. The match was already lost anyway.
Exactly, nicely done.
His height wasn't the issue on Sunday. His positioning, decision making and lack of recovery pace were the things that concerned me. It was like having two Maguires on the pitch. Hopefully it was just nerves and he'll get better, Vidic got off to a similar start here after all.
Whenever Lindelof comes up against an aerially good striker, he will like clockwork lose the first couple of headers, drop back and cede possession/territory. Later he find a bit of balls, only to ram straight into the back of the attacker a few times to overcompensate, whilst giving away fouls at the halfway line.
Martinez looks more proactive and aggressive aerially thus far. Let's see if that continues and he has the chance to showcase it.
Serie A managers back then didn't commit many players in attack, and at the same time preferred comfortable number advantage in defense. So it means it's easier for their managers to assign the taller partner of someone like Cannavaro to man mark a lone attacker. Teams were not set up for high pressing, which means they didn't want to just launch long ball to lone attackers surrounded by several opposition defenders. Because even a won contested duel could likely end up in possession turnover without support attacker to win the second ball. Italian football, and Serie A has been lagging behind in its youth formation regarding physicality development.
https://football-italia.net/capello-tells-italy-better-to-follow-blessin-than-guardiola/
"There were no vertical passes or physical strength, there is no habit to making challenges. On the other hand, we should follow Jurgen Klopp’s playing style."
"There is a high pace in European competition and we are not accustomed to it."
"“Victor Oshimhen, Romelu Lukaku and Tammy Abraham were just normal strikers abroad. They became champions in Italy. This should raise some questions."
So a Serie A manager legend is here suggesting pragmatically adapt to physicality of other leagues. Nesta even from young age when he's yet accomplished much in the game, was considered an ideal CB model partly because his physique. He's very tall by average Italian player standard.
Also Serie A back then was much more tolerable on defensive dark arts than today game. There is no surprise that Serie A when adapting to today rules, and becoming more open, very un-Italian compare to the Serie A of past decades.
So in short, it's very incomparable situation.
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Thank you for sharing this. I didn't think he got bullied either. It was one moment for the goal where he seemed to be backtracking to cover for someone else. Otherwise on the first half he dealt with their deliver very well.
One can understand why pundits would attack a United player to get clicks. But why "fans" would take a negative attitude on a new player after 1 slip, when we've watched Clownguire make 30 errors a game blows my mind.
Varane & Martinez is our best duo. Playing Maguire leads to more goals conceded than he helps create with his supposedly superior passing skills.
Varane & Martinez is our best duo. Playing Maguire leads to more goals conceded than he helps create with his supposedly superior passing skills.
Couldn't agree more. Some of his touches and passing are so smooth, esp in this team it's like he is playing a different sport.
Glad somebody put that together. I knew from watching the game the narrative that he got bullied was absolute rubbish.
Twice there he's throwing Mbuemo and Toney to the floor in a physical duel
I don't even think he lost a header from a long ball.His performance was absolutely fine, but typically because he was the nearest player on the 3rd goal it all got blamed towards him.
This is why I really wish Gary Neville stopped commentating on our games. He cannot help but cause more damage with his stupid anecdotes
Was scared to read this thread, great to see most posters still have their sense.
Give it time mate, this is the Caf after all!
But seriously people need their head checked if they say Martinez isnt good enough.
Is it just me that thinks that neither centre back has really been the main problem with the side?
I'm not going to say they've played well but I think Maguire and Licha have probably done about as well as you could reasonably expect a centre half pairing to do when they're playing together for the first time, behind a midfield that STILL does not contain a natural defensive midfielder, and in front of a goalkeeper who refuses to leave his line, can't distribute well and might as well be throwing the ball into his own net.
I'm not going to say they've played well but I think Maguire and Licha have probably done about as well as you could reasonably expect a centre half pairing to do when they're playing together for the first time, behind a midfield that STILL does not contain a natural defensive midfielder, and in front of a goalkeeper who refuses to leave his line, can't distribute well and might as well be throwing the ball into his own net.
A serious question, what was he doing on the goal line? Was that some kind of genius defending?
Maguire is though. He is terrible in possession. When a little bit of pressure is put on him he hoofs it long, into the stands or puts his teammates in a problematic situation. With Maguire in there, it's always going to be an uphill challenge withstanding pressure from the opponent.
Moreover, the counterattacking goal United conceded was also really poor defending by Maguire. He just left his man, whilst not trying to pressure on the opponent. He just stood there doing nothing, instead of defending the player he should have defended (Toney). By not doing anything he made Martinez having to switch to the right side to cover there, instead of being able to cover the middle and take out the cross. Sure Shaw was also outran, but what do you do if someone else is quicker. Attackers are quicker than defenders most of the time. That disadvantage should be taken out by a good organization positioning itself well. Maguire completely let the organization down there.
Obviously other players also didn't look good for other goals. However Maguire just lacks qualities both in the defensive area as well as in possession. He is a main problem imho.
That was a normal reaction. Toney was winning the header before easily. The far post was completely open. Martinez expected Toney to go for goal, which wasn't a very strange expectation at all. The problem was not that Martinez made that choice. He shouldn't have been in that position anyway. In the end Toney was marked by Eriksen before the corner was taken, which was obviously a complete mismatch. That's where that goal went wrong. I'm pretty sure that's where EtHs focus will be after analysing that goal.
Glad somebody put that together. I knew from watching the game the narrative that he got bullied was absolute rubbish.
Twice there he's throwing Mbuemo and Toney to the floor in a physical duel
His performance was absolutely fine, but typically because he was the nearest player on the 3rd goal it all got blamed towards him.
This is why I really wish Gary Neville stopped commentating on our games. He cannot help but cause more damage with his stupid anecdotes
I'm sorry but this reeks of new player bias. Had Maguire played this he has the first two games he'd have been slaughtered.
I don't even rate Maguire and he's been better than Martinez so far this season. Not saying much obviously but I think Martinez had looked more shaky.
The area he was covering was also open when he left it to go on the goal line? And imo it was much bigger potential danger than the goal line. In truth I agree there should have been another one on the line like most corners, but I think Lisandro made a feck up from the start.
nothing bias about it, just watch the games. I'll call a stick a stick, and I didn't think Martinez played badly against Brentford at all.
He actually had a worse game against Brighton.
As I said in an earlier post, your argument is at least something I can understand the debate for rather than the stupid height argument which just had no influence in this goal. However as mentioned I don't agree with your point of view. He's in a position where he has to choose and in the end his choice doesn't work out. He shouldn't be in a position to choose there though and thats where it essentially goes wrong imo. You're always going to be on your backfoot when you have to make choices in these situations. But lets just to agree to disagree here.
Well he did as the whole team were shocking. Nobody above a 4 out of 10 for me.
Can't disagree the whole team was bad, but to point out Martinez as one of the bigger problems just wasn't true at all.
Out of the 4 goals only 1 was a very extremely small portion. Apart from that he did everything that was required. He cleared loads of crosses, won plenty of headers and battled hard.
Thanks to De Gea, Eriksen and Maguire it all shit the bed.
New players bias. That's what it is.
First 3 / 4 games of Wan Bissaka I had this debate with people. They were over rating him because he was new and fresh.
Martinez might well become a good signing but he's been incredibly poor the first two games. So much so that he's been targeted by Potter and Frank.
"so much so that he's been targeted by Potter and Frank" - no that is because he is short, he could've had a stormer of a game against Brighton and I am sure Frank, recognising the height advantage of his players, would've had the same tactic.
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