La Liga/Serie A/Bundesliga Draft

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Don't think that can be easily defined. For example, Vieri was in Atletico for just a season...but I would not hesitate to put that as one of his peaks. There is a bit of argument to be made by managers when it's not as clearly defined. After that it's up to the voters to make their own decision.
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Vieri is perfectly fine for this draft.
For example, lets say Aldo has Hazard in EPL draft who has one brilliant season with Chelsea and lets say 3 seasons where he was poor at Chelsea. The Stain on the other hand has Alexis who was brilliant for Arsenal in 3 seasons. Their peak is pretty similar and they are used the right way so how should they be rated? Both the same? Its not fair towards Stain as his players was great for a much longer period. If we all know how long the peak should be there wouldnt be this type of situations in the game and you still have to argue the ability of your player in your system.

Marty1968 said:
In my mind, that's the whole point of these drafts...to be able to argue a point about how good a particular player was in the role you've given him and his abilities to be judged on how he performed for that particular club.
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You would still have to argue the same staff you need to argue now.....
 
David "Pek" Pizarro

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  1. KM /Cal? - 1. Zlatan 2. Reus 3. Buchwald 4. Albertini 5. Boban 6. Filipe Luis 7. Griezmann 8. Senna 9. Piszczek 10. Courtois 11. Bonucci
  2. Downcast/KirkDuyt - 1. Neymar 2. Yaya Touré 3. Falcao 4. Di Maria 5. Maicon 6. Özil 7. Heinrich 8. Vieira 9. Stankovic 10. Materrazzi 11. Júlio César da Silva
  3. Gio - 1. Nedved 2. Veron 3. Reuter 4. Deschamps 5. Puyol 6. Bratseth 7. Careca 8. Michel 9. Thon 10. Sergi 11. Chilavert
  4. Enigma_87/Snow - 1. Kaka 2. Villa 3. Lucio 4. Modric 5. Schneider 6. Marcelo 7. Helmer 8. Salgado 9. Conte 10. Vialli 11. van der Sar
  5. Crappycraperson - 1. Totti 2. Savićević 3. Bale 4. Kroos 5. Popescu 6. Jorginho 7. Jeremies 8. Grosso 9. Gamarra 10. Canizares 11. Ivan Cordoba
  6. Joga Bonito/Balu - 1. Bergomi 2. Xabi Alonso 3. Dani Alves 4. Häßler 5. Forlán 6. Ferri 7. Dunga 8. Aimar 9. Crespo 10. Carboni 11. Eike Immel
  7. mazhar13/Boycott - 1. Shevchenko 2. Aldair 3. Donadoni 4. Luis Enrique 5. Cocu 6. Pique 7. Chendo 8. Kahn 9. Serginho 10. Uwe Bein 11. Wynton Rufer
  8. VivaJanuzaj/MJJ - 1. Müller 2. Eto'o 3. Guardiola 4. T. Silva 5. Samuel 6. Abidal 7. Sneijder 8. Khedira 9. Robinho 10. Klos 11. Carvajal
  9. RedTiger - 1. Ballack 2. Zambrotta 3 Ayala 4. Vidal 5. Aguero 6. Paulo Sousa 7. Panucci 8. Francescoli 9. Wörns 10. Butt 11. Mijatovic
  10. Aldo/The Stain - 1. Davids 2. Littbarski 3. Mendieta 4. Montero 5. Makaay 6. Henry 7. Mascherano 8. Angloma 9. Candela 10. Linke 11. Aumann
  11. Marty1968 - 1. Seedorf 2. Costacurta 3. Berthold 4. Gattuso 5. Scholl 6. Benarrivo 7.Babbel 8. Butragueño 9. Zamorano 10. Lehmann 11. McManaman
  12. Sjor Bepo/anant - 1. Stam 2. Alaba 3. Camoranesi 4. Godin 5. Gündoğan 6. Kluivert 7. Javi Martinez 8. Gascoigne 9. Futre 10. Juanfran 11. Peruzzi
  13. Isotope - 1. Cafu 2. Weah 3. Ze Roberto 4. Mauro Silva 5. Hummels 6. Signori 7. Sanchis 8. van Bommel 9. Illgner 10. Valeron 11. David Pizarro
  14. Skizzo/Pat_Mustard - 1. Hierro 2. Ruggeri 3. Klinsmann 4. Bebeto 5. Möller 6. Chiellini 7. Baraja 8. Ziege 9. Pogba 10. Zenga
  15. Tuppet - 1. R. Carlos 2. Zanetti 3. Völler 4. Ferrara 5. Riquelme 6. B. Laudrup 7. Nadal 8. De Rossi 9. Balakov 10. Zubizarreta
  16. Edgar Allan Pillow - 1. B Lizarazu 2. W Sagnol 3. C Vieri 4. J Boateng 5. D Simeone 6. E Cambiasso 7. Deco 8. F de Boer 9. A Kopke 10. F Inzaghi
Blocked list:
Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Busquets, Romario, Redondo, Xavi, Rijkaard, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Messi, Luis Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski, Van Basten, Baresi, Maldini, Matthaus, Nesta, Kohler, Van Nistelrooy, Suarez, Zidane, Buffon, Casillas, Neuer, Sammer, M. Laudrup, Gullit, Batistuta, Baggio, Pirlo, Stoichkov, Desailly, Thuram, Brehme, Tassotti, Iniesta, Koeman, Raul, Rui Costa, Del Piero, Figo, Rivaldo, Effenberg, Cannavaro, Makelele.

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard
 
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Chesterlestreet said:
Begs the question what that actually is, though. We had a similar issue with the PL draft, as I recall it.

In theory you could field a player who was very good for 3/4 of one season, and largely crap in two seasons following that. If you happen to draft him, you'll obviously focus on the former and - simply - claim that this was his (legitimate) peak, and the rest has no relevance.

On a similar note, should a player who was consistently good for several seasons on end get some extra credit for this - or should he be treated exactly like a player who only played one season in the league he represents, and was fairly decent in that season, but obviously better in a different league?

We'll see when the matches kick off, I guess - but for me it isn't unreasonable to focus on Player X's overall career in the league he represents - part of the plot here, after all, is to pit the leagues against each other after a fashion. So - for me, I stress - I would probably consider it a relevant thing to look at how well the player did in the league beyond his absolute peak (which could have been short lived - and which can be defined in several possible ways). As an added factor, that is - not as a primary factor: If the premise is "peak" then it is "peak", one can't ignore that. But "peak" is always problematic to define exactly unless one goes crazy (and that usually takes the fun out of things).
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I don't think it should be that much of an issue in the GK position at all. I can see Chilavert being picked despite being a good 4 years off his peak at least and generally only spending 2 seasons at Spain.

I don't think VDS Juve level is below Klos, Butt, Lehmann or other that were picked, but higher.

I won't argue that it's absolutely peak VDS level as in terms of career peak, but the level VDS was in his first Juve season can be directly compared to the one in 1998 which IMO was one of his best in his young era. And given the blocks and the keeper level I'd argue that is at least top 5 quality in the pool. And let's not forget he conceded 20 goals that season, whilst Juve conceded double that amount the year before.

There were some errors but he had them from time to time in his career(against Fulham for example). Sure he was not at his absolute peak, but IMO in his first season he was mighty close.
 
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  1. KM /Cal? - 1. Zlatan 2. Reus 3. Buchwald 4. Albertini 5. Boban 6. Filipe Luis 7. Griezmann 8. Senna 9. Piszczek 10. Courtois 11. Bonucci
  2. Downcast/KirkDuyt - 1. Neymar 2. Yaya Touré 3. Falcao 4. Di Maria 5. Maicon 6. Özil 7. Heinrich 8. Vieira 9. Stankovic 10. Materrazzi 11. Júlio César da Silva
  3. Gio - 1. Nedved 2. Veron 3. Reuter 4. Deschamps 5. Puyol 6. Bratseth 7. Careca 8. Michel 9. Thon 10. Sergi 11. Chilavert
  4. Enigma_87/Snow - 1. Kaka 2. Villa 3. Lucio 4. Modric 5. Schneider 6. Marcelo 7. Helmer 8. Salgado 9. Conte 10. Vialli 11. van der Sar
  5. Crappycraperson - 1. Totti 2. Savićević 3. Bale 4. Kroos 5. Popescu 6. Jorginho 7. Jeremies 8. Grosso 9. Gamarra 10. Canizares 11. Ivan Cordoba
  6. Joga Bonito/Balu - 1. Bergomi 2. Xabi Alonso 3. Dani Alves 4. Häßler 5. Forlán 6. Ferri 7. Dunga 8. Aimar 9. Crespo 10. Carboni 11. Eike Immel
  7. mazhar13/Boycott - 1. Shevchenko 2. Aldair 3. Donadoni 4. Luis Enrique 5. Cocu 6. Pique 7. Chendo 8. Kahn 9. Serginho 10. Uwe Bein 11. Wynton Rufer
  8. VivaJanuzaj/MJJ - 1. Müller 2. Eto'o 3. Guardiola 4. T. Silva 5. Samuel 6. Abidal 7. Sneijder 8. Khedira 9. Robinho 10. Klos 11. Carvajal
  9. RedTiger - 1. Ballack 2. Zambrotta 3 Ayala 4. Vidal 5. Aguero 6. Paulo Sousa 7. Panucci 8. Francescoli 9. Wörns 10. Butt 11. Mijatovic
  10. Aldo/The Stain - 1. Davids 2. Littbarski 3. Mendieta 4. Montero 5. Makaay 6. Henry 7. Mascherano 8. Angloma 9. Candela 10. Linke 11. Aumann
  11. Marty1968 - 1. Seedorf 2. Costacurta 3. Berthold 4. Gattuso 5. Scholl 6. Benarrivo 7.Babbel 8. Butragueño 9. Zamorano 10. Lehmann 11. McManaman
  12. Sjor Bepo/anant - 1. Stam 2. Alaba 3. Camoranesi 4. Godin 5. Gündoğan 6. Kluivert 7. Javi Martinez 8. Gascoigne 9. Futre 10. Juanfran 11. Peruzzi
  13. Isotope - 1. Cafu 2. Weah 3. Ze Roberto 4. Mauro Silva 5. Hummels 6. Signori 7. Sanchis 8. van Bommel 9. Illgner 10. Valeron 11. David Pizarro
  14. Skizzo/Pat_Mustard - 1. Hierro 2. Ruggeri 3. Klinsmann 4. Bebeto 5. Möller 6. Chiellini 7. Baraja 8. Ziege 9. Pogba 10. Zenga 11. Basler
  15. Tuppet - 1. R. Carlos 2. Zanetti 3. Völler 4. Ferrara 5. Riquelme 6. B. Laudrup 7. Nadal 8. De Rossi 9. Balakov 10. Zubizarreta
  16. Edgar Allan Pillow - 1. B Lizarazu 2. W Sagnol 3. C Vieri 4. J Boateng 5. D Simeone 6. E Cambiasso 7. Deco 8. F de Boer 9. A Kopke 10. F Inzaghi
Blocked list:
Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Busquets, Romario, Redondo, Xavi, Rijkaard, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Messi, Luis Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski, Van Basten, Baresi, Maldini, Matthaus, Nesta, Kohler, Van Nistelrooy, Suarez, Zidane, Buffon, Casillas, Neuer, Sammer, M. Laudrup, Gullit, Batistuta, Baggio, Pirlo, Stoichkov, Desailly, Thuram, Brehme, Tassotti, Iniesta, Koeman, Raul, Rui Costa, Del Piero, Figo, Rivaldo, Effenberg, Cannavaro, Makelele.

@Tuppet
 
  1. KM /Cal? - 1. Zlatan 2. Reus 3. Buchwald 4. Albertini 5. Boban 6. Filipe Luis 7. Griezmann 8. Senna 9. Piszczek 10. Courtois 11. Bonucci
  2. Downcast/KirkDuyt - 1. Neymar 2. Yaya Touré 3. Falcao 4. Di Maria 5. Maicon 6. Özil 7. Heinrich 8. Vieira 9. Stankovic 10. Materrazzi 11. Júlio César da Silva
  3. Gio - 1. Nedved 2. Veron 3. Reuter 4. Deschamps 5. Puyol 6. Bratseth 7. Careca 8. Michel 9. Thon 10. Sergi 11. Chilavert
  4. Enigma_87/Snow - 1. Kaka 2. Villa 3. Lucio 4. Modric 5. Schneider 6. Marcelo 7. Helmer 8. Salgado 9. Conte 10. Vialli 11. van der Sar
  5. Crappycraperson - 1. Totti 2. Savićević 3. Bale 4. Kroos 5. Popescu 6. Jorginho 7. Jeremies 8. Grosso 9. Gamarra 10. Canizares 11. Ivan Cordoba
  6. Joga Bonito/Balu - 1. Bergomi 2. Xabi Alonso 3. Dani Alves 4. Häßler 5. Forlán 6. Ferri 7. Dunga 8. Aimar 9. Crespo 10. Carboni 11. Eike Immel
  7. mazhar13/Boycott - 1. Shevchenko 2. Aldair 3. Donadoni 4. Luis Enrique 5. Cocu 6. Pique 7. Chendo 8. Kahn 9. Serginho 10. Uwe Bein 11. Wynton Rufer
  8. VivaJanuzaj/MJJ - 1. Müller 2. Eto'o 3. Guardiola 4. T. Silva 5. Samuel 6. Abidal 7. Sneijder 8. Khedira 9. Robinho 10. Klos 11. Carvajal
  9. RedTiger - 1. Ballack 2. Zambrotta 3 Ayala 4. Vidal 5. Aguero 6. Paulo Sousa 7. Panucci 8. Francescoli 9. Wörns 10. Butt 11. Mijatovic
  10. Aldo/The Stain - 1. Davids 2. Littbarski 3. Mendieta 4. Montero 5. Makaay 6. Henry 7. Mascherano 8. Angloma 9. Candela 10. Linke 11. Aumann
  11. Marty1968 - 1. Seedorf 2. Costacurta 3. Berthold 4. Gattuso 5. Scholl 6. Benarrivo 7.Babbel 8. Butragueño 9. Zamorano 10. Lehmann 11. McManaman
  12. Sjor Bepo/anant - 1. Stam 2. Alaba 3. Camoranesi 4. Godin 5. Gündoğan 6. Kluivert 7. Javi Martinez 8. Gascoigne 9. Futre 10. Juanfran 11. Peruzzi
  13. Isotope - 1. Cafu 2. Weah 3. Ze Roberto 4. Mauro Silva 5. Hummels 6. Signori 7. Sanchis 8. van Bommel 9. Illgner 10. Valeron 11. David Pizarro
  14. Skizzo/Pat_Mustard - 1. Hierro 2. Ruggeri 3. Klinsmann 4. Bebeto 5. Möller 6. Chiellini 7. Baraja 8. Ziege 9. Pogba 10. Zenga 11. Basler
  15. Tuppet - 1. R. Carlos 2. Zanetti 3. Völler 4. Ferrara 5. Riquelme 6. B. Laudrup 7. Nadal 8. De Rossi 9. Balakov 10. Zubizarreta 11. Caniggia
  16. Edgar Allan Pillow - 1. B Lizarazu 2. W Sagnol 3. C Vieri 4. J Boateng 5. D Simeone 6. E Cambiasso 7. Deco 8. F de Boer 9. A Kopke 10. F Inzaghi
Blocked list:
Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Busquets, Romario, Redondo, Xavi, Rijkaard, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Messi, Luis Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski, Van Basten, Baresi, Maldini, Matthaus, Nesta, Kohler, Van Nistelrooy, Suarez, Zidane, Buffon, Casillas, Neuer, Sammer, M. Laudrup, Gullit, Batistuta, Baggio, Pirlo, Stoichkov, Desailly, Thuram, Brehme, Tassotti, Iniesta, Koeman, Raul, Rui Costa, Del Piero, Figo, Rivaldo, Effenberg, Cannavaro, Makelele.

@Edgar Allan Pillow
 
Pat_Mustard said:
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  1. KM /Cal? - 1. Zlatan 2. Reus 3. Buchwald 4. Albertini 5. Boban 6. Filipe Luis 7. Griezmann 8. Senna 9. Piszczek 10. Courtois 11. Bonucci
  2. Downcast/KirkDuyt - 1. Neymar 2. Yaya Touré 3. Falcao 4. Di Maria 5. Maicon 6. Özil 7. Heinrich 8. Vieira 9. Stankovic 10. Materrazzi 11. Júlio César da Silva
  3. Gio - 1. Nedved 2. Veron 3. Reuter 4. Deschamps 5. Puyol 6. Bratseth 7. Careca 8. Michel 9. Thon 10. Sergi 11. Chilavert
  4. Enigma_87/Snow - 1. Kaka 2. Villa 3. Lucio 4. Modric 5. Schneider 6. Marcelo 7. Helmer 8. Salgado 9. Conte 10. Vialli 11. van der Sar
  5. Crappycraperson - 1. Totti 2. Savićević 3. Bale 4. Kroos 5. Popescu 6. Jorginho 7. Jeremies 8. Grosso 9. Gamarra 10. Canizares 11. Ivan Cordoba
  6. Joga Bonito/Balu - 1. Bergomi 2. Xabi Alonso 3. Dani Alves 4. Häßler 5. Forlán 6. Ferri 7. Dunga 8. Aimar 9. Crespo 10. Carboni 11. Eike Immel
  7. mazhar13/Boycott - 1. Shevchenko 2. Aldair 3. Donadoni 4. Luis Enrique 5. Cocu 6. Pique 7. Chendo 8. Kahn 9. Serginho 10. Uwe Bein 11. Wynton Rufer
  8. VivaJanuzaj/MJJ - 1. Müller 2. Eto'o 3. Guardiola 4. T. Silva 5. Samuel 6. Abidal 7. Sneijder 8. Khedira 9. Robinho 10. Klos 11. Carvajal
  9. RedTiger - 1. Ballack 2. Zambrotta 3 Ayala 4. Vidal 5. Aguero 6. Paulo Sousa 7. Panucci 8. Francescoli 9. Wörns 10. Butt 11. Mijatovic
  10. Aldo/The Stain - 1. Davids 2. Littbarski 3. Mendieta 4. Montero 5. Makaay 6. Henry 7. Mascherano 8. Angloma 9. Candela 10. Linke 11. Aumann
  11. Marty1968 - 1. Seedorf 2. Costacurta 3. Berthold 4. Gattuso 5. Scholl 6. Benarrivo 7.Babbel 8. Butragueño 9. Zamorano 10. Lehmann 11. McManaman
  12. Sjor Bepo/anant - 1. Stam 2. Alaba 3. Camoranesi 4. Godin 5. Gündoğan 6. Kluivert 7. Javi Martinez 8. Gascoigne 9. Futre 10. Juanfran 11. Peruzzi
  13. Isotope - 1. Cafu 2. Weah 3. Ze Roberto 4. Mauro Silva 5. Hummels 6. Signori 7. Sanchis 8. van Bommel 9. Illgner 10. Valeron 11. David Pizarro
  14. Skizzo/Pat_Mustard - 1. Hierro 2. Ruggeri 3. Klinsmann 4. Bebeto 5. Möller 6. Chiellini 7. Baraja 8. Ziege 9. Pogba 10. Zenga 11. Basler
  15. Tuppet - 1. R. Carlos 2. Zanetti 3. Völler 4. Ferrara 5. Riquelme 6. B. Laudrup 7. Nadal 8. De Rossi 9. Balakov 10. Zubizarreta
  16. Edgar Allan Pillow - 1. B Lizarazu 2. W Sagnol 3. C Vieri 4. J Boateng 5. D Simeone 6. E Cambiasso 7. Deco 8. F de Boer 9. A Kopke 10. F Inzaghi
Blocked list:
Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Busquets, Romario, Redondo, Xavi, Rijkaard, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Messi, Luis Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski, Van Basten, Baresi, Maldini, Matthaus, Nesta, Kohler, Van Nistelrooy, Suarez, Zidane, Buffon, Casillas, Neuer, Sammer, M. Laudrup, Gullit, Batistuta, Baggio, Pirlo, Stoichkov, Desailly, Thuram, Brehme, Tassotti, Iniesta, Koeman, Raul, Rui Costa, Del Piero, Figo, Rivaldo, Effenberg, Cannavaro, Makelele.

@Tuppet
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I thought basler had gone:lol: good pick
 
Enigma_87 said:
I don't think it should be that much of an issue in the GK position at all. I can see Chilavert being picked despite being a good 4 years off his peak at least and generally only spending 2 seasons at Spain.

I don't think VDS Juve level is below Klos, Butt, Lehmann or other that were picked, but higher.

I won't argue that it's absolutely peak VDS level as in terms of career peak, but the level VDS was in his first Juve season can be directly compared to the one in 1998 which IMO was one of his best in his young era. And given the blocks and the keeper level I'd argue that is at least top 5 quality in the pool. And let's not forget he conceded 20 goals that season, whilst Juve conceded double that amount the year before.

There were some errors but he had them from time to time in his career(against Fulham for example). Sure he was not at his absolute peak, but IMO in his first season he was mighty close.
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It all comes down to evidence. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Van der Sar wasn't at his best across his time at Juventus - his position under threat from Westerveld, the negative reaction from fans on various sites, and the telling fact he went to Fulham rather than a club of any decent stature. Claiming he's a top 5 keeper in this pool in light of that evidence is a huge claim. And if you can find the evidence to diss the credentials of Klos, Butt, Lehmann or Chilavert, then you can justify that stance. But in the relative absence of any apparent evidence to question their performance level - other than that their overall reputation isn't as great as the one Edwin developed over his career in Holland and England - then it's a tough sell.
 
Tuppet said:
Son of the wind

6e17a98d3f4e3a171c4fd1c4bdf94fb2.jpg
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Yeah someone picked Cannigia! Very happy he's in the draft. He's the guy I was talking about being one of my favourite players (looks like Diego likes him a bit too!!). Lightning pace and great skills. It was between him and McManaman but Macca offers a bit more versatility for me.
 
RedTiger said:
I thought basler had gone:lol: good pick
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I wondered who would take the trouble maker...

When he left Bremen, he claimed "fifteen out of 20 players at this club are glad to see me go."

Had three pretty troubled years after that at Bayern too. Not doubting his talent though.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I don't think VDS Juve level is below Klos, Butt, Lehmann or other that were picked, but higher.
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Fair enough, then that's what you'll argue if and when. I don't necessarily disagree wildly, but I think VDS is a typical example of a certain kind of player who is - naturally, if you will - debatable given the premise of the draft.

No sense in debating it here, though - and if things pan out as they normally do, the focus won't be on your keeper anyway.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Really? At what point Lehmann and Butt were as good as VdS
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I don't want to get too deep into the discussion. If you're convinced that van der Sar was great and worthy to be picked, fair enough. You can make your case.

However, Lehmann at his peak was a sensational goalkeeper for both Schalke and Dortmund. For example, kicker had him as the highest rated player in Dortmund's title winning team in 2001/02 and overall the 6th highest rated player in the league. He was a strong and positive influence on his team. It's ridiculous to claim that van der Sar played on a comparable level at Juve, it's really absurd.

I'll leave it at that though.
 
Gio said:
Cost Kiev a shot at the title with an absolute worldie in the semi, the cnut.
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Just watched the goal. Demn.., that's indeed a worldie goal. Always thought that Effenberg was their FK taker.
 
Balu said:
I don't want to get too deep into the discussion. If you're convinced that van der Sar was great and worthy to be picked, fair enough. You can make your case.

However, Lehmann at his peak was a sensational goalkeeper for both Schalke and Dortmund. For example, kicker had him as the highest rated player in Dortmund's title winning team in 2001/02 and overall the 6th highest rated player in the league. He was a strong and positive influence on his team. It's ridiculous to claim that van der Sar played on a comparable level at Juve, it's really absurd.

I'll leave it at that though.
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I'll use this in my write up, thanks!! ;o)
 
Balu said:
I don't want to get too deep into the discussion. If you're convinced that van der Sar was great and worthy to be picked, fair enough. You can make your case.

However, Lehmann at his peak was a sensational goalkeeper for both Schalke and Dortmund. For example, kicker had him as the highest rated player in Dortmund's title winning team in 2001/02 and overall the 6th highest rated player in the league. He was a strong and positive influence on his team. It's ridiculous to claim that van der Sar played on a comparable level at Juve, it's really absurd.

I'll leave it at that though.
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VdS was picked #3 in the world the year before and had brilliant WC. In his first season Juve conceded 20 goals compared to double what they did in the previous season. I think was pretty close to that 1998 level which I think is above Lehman ever had(of course debatable). Lehman has always been prone to error no less than Juve's VdS. Again here I'm talking about his first season, his second was not that good. Sure he was better at us when he matured, but still was a top top keeper back then. We also wanted him as Schmikes replacement after the world cup.

The expectations of VdS were high so it's natural to receive plenty of scrutiny
 
Marty1968 said:
I wondered who would take the trouble maker...

When he left Bremen, he claimed "fifteen out of 20 players at this club are glad to see me go."

Had three pretty troubled years after that at Bayern too. Not doubting his talent though.
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Aye, Bayern supposedly hired a private investigator to keep an eye on him at one stage :lol:. This (from an old article about Effenberg) amused me too:

According to his friends he is not so aloof behind the hardened image. Brian Laudrup was so fond of him when they were team-mates at Fiorentina he enthused he would marry Stefan if he were a woman. They fell out forever apparently over a car. Hitzfeld assures us he is easy-going. Scholl smiles he's a funny guy. In Bayern's official yearbook his hobbies are listed as swimming and family. More revealing is his answer to the 'women you admire' category. While others vote for Steffi Graf, Demi Moore, Kim Basinger that kind of thing (Mario Basler, for reasons best known to himself, plumps for Queen Elizabeth II), Effenberg replies: 'Only my wife.' His other half is a well-known figure in German football, his agent, and also armed with a no-messing reputation. He has been the butt of many sub-thumb, trouser-wearing jokes over the years. A chink in the tough guy armour?
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Enigma_87 said:
We also wanted him as Schmikes replacement after the world cup.
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That's right now that you mention it.

Anyway, the final word from me on this would be that Gio's point above is a good one. All anyone can do here is to point to the evidence. VDS' problem is obvious: His Juve stint is widely recognized as a failure - one that led to him falling into relative obscurity rather than cementing his status as a world beater: He didn't do the latter until he - finally - signed for United and enjoyed a fantastic end to his career.

That's the story you need to find holes in, so to speak - and that's clearly possible.

Anyway, to be revisited at some point - probably.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
VDS' problem is obvious: His Juve stint is widely recognized as a failure
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not taking any sides in this one as i dont know enough but will just comment on the quoted part. The fact he was widely recognized as a failure means absolutely nothing.
 
  1. KM /Cal? - 1. Zlatan 2. Reus 3. Buchwald 4. Albertini 5. Boban 6. Filipe Luis 7. Griezmann 8. Senna 9. Piszczek 10. Courtois 11. Bonucci
  2. Downcast/KirkDuyt - 1. Neymar 2. Yaya Touré 3. Falcao 4. Di Maria 5. Maicon 6. Özil 7. Heinrich 8. Vieira 9. Stankovic 10. Materrazzi 11. Júlio César da Silva
  3. Gio - 1. Nedved 2. Veron 3. Reuter 4. Deschamps 5. Puyol 6. Bratseth 7. Careca 8. Michel 9. Thon 10. Sergi 11. Chilavert
  4. Enigma_87/Snow - 1. Kaka 2. Villa 3. Lucio 4. Modric 5. Schneider 6. Marcelo 7. Helmer 8. Salgado 9. Conte 10. Vialli 11. van der Sar
  5. Crappycraperson - 1. Totti 2. Savićević 3. Bale 4. Kroos 5. Popescu 6. Jorginho 7. Jeremies 8. Grosso 9. Gamarra 10. Canizares 11. Ivan Cordoba
  6. Joga Bonito/Balu - 1. Bergomi 2. Xabi Alonso 3. Dani Alves 4. Häßler 5. Forlán 6. Ferri 7. Dunga 8. Aimar 9. Crespo 10. Carboni 11. Eike Immel
  7. mazhar13/Boycott - 1. Shevchenko 2. Aldair 3. Donadoni 4. Luis Enrique 5. Cocu 6. Pique 7. Chendo 8. Kahn 9. Serginho 10. Uwe Bein 11. Wynton Rufer
  8. VivaJanuzaj/MJJ - 1. Müller 2. Eto'o 3. Guardiola 4. T. Silva 5. Samuel 6. Abidal 7. Sneijder 8. Khedira 9. Robinho 10. Klos 11. Carvajal
  9. RedTiger - 1. Ballack 2. Zambrotta 3 Ayala 4. Vidal 5. Aguero 6. Paulo Sousa 7. Panucci 8. Francescoli 9. Wörns 10. Butt 11. Mijatovic
  10. Aldo/The Stain - 1. Davids 2. Littbarski 3. Mendieta 4. Montero 5. Makaay 6. Henry 7. Mascherano 8. Angloma 9. Candela 10. Linke 11. Aumann
  11. Marty1968 - 1. Seedorf 2. Costacurta 3. Berthold 4. Gattuso 5. Scholl 6. Benarrivo 7.Babbel 8. Butragueño 9. Zamorano 10. Lehmann 11. McManaman
  12. Sjor Bepo/anant - 1. Stam 2. Alaba 3. Camoranesi 4. Godin 5. Gündoğan 6. Kluivert 7. Javi Martinez 8. Gascoigne 9. Futre 10. Juanfran 11. Peruzzi
  13. Isotope - 1. Cafu 2. Weah 3. Ze Roberto 4. Mauro Silva 5. Hummels 6. Signori 7. Sanchis 8. van Bommel 9. Illgner 10. Valeron 11. David Pizarro
  14. Skizzo/Pat_Mustard - 1. Hierro 2. Ruggeri 3. Klinsmann 4. Bebeto 5. Möller 6. Chiellini 7. Baraja 8. Ziege 9. Pogba 10. Zenga 11. Basler
  15. Tuppet - 1. R. Carlos 2. Zanetti 3. Völler 4. Ferrara 5. Riquelme 6. B. Laudrup 7. Nadal 8. De Rossi 9. Balakov 10. Zubizarreta 11. Caniggia
  16. Edgar Allan Pillow - 1. B Lizarazu 2. W Sagnol 3. C Vieri 4. J Boateng 5. D Simeone 6. E Cambiasso 7. Deco 8. F de Boer 9. A Kopke 10. F Inzaghi 11. I Helguera 12. A Di Livio
Blocked list:
Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Busquets, Romario, Redondo, Xavi, Rijkaard, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Messi, Luis Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski, Van Basten, Baresi, Maldini, Matthaus, Nesta, Kohler, Van Nistelrooy, Suarez, Zidane, Buffon, Casillas, Neuer, Sammer, M. Laudrup, Gullit, Batistuta, Baggio, Pirlo, Stoichkov, Desailly, Thuram, Brehme, Tassotti, Iniesta, Koeman, Raul, Rui Costa, Del Piero, Figo, Rivaldo, Effenberg, Cannavaro, Makelele.

@Tuppet
 
Šjor Bepo said:
not taking any sides in this one as i dont know enough but will just comment on the quoted part. The fact he was widely recognized as a failure means absolutely nothing.
Click to expand...

I didn't say that he was widely recognized as a failure - I said that his stint is widely recognized as such within the context of his career. This is a draft, it isn't a scientific evaluation of VDS's career. In the context of the draft it is evidently a problem that his stint is recognized as a failure: VDS' reputation took a dive after said stint, that is absolutely undeniable whether you think it's fair or not.
 
  1. KM /Cal? - 1. Zlatan 2. Reus 3. Buchwald 4. Albertini 5. Boban 6. Filipe Luis 7. Griezmann 8. Senna 9. Piszczek 10. Courtois 11. Bonucci
  2. Downcast/KirkDuyt - 1. Neymar 2. Yaya Touré 3. Falcao 4. Di Maria 5. Maicon 6. Özil 7. Heinrich 8. Vieira 9. Stankovic 10. Materrazzi 11. Júlio César da Silva
  3. Gio - 1. Nedved 2. Veron 3. Reuter 4. Deschamps 5. Puyol 6. Bratseth 7. Careca 8. Michel 9. Thon 10. Sergi 11. Chilavert
  4. Enigma_87/Snow - 1. Kaka 2. Villa 3. Lucio 4. Modric 5. Schneider 6. Marcelo 7. Helmer 8. Salgado 9. Conte 10. Vialli 11. van der Sar
  5. Crappycraperson - 1. Totti 2. Savićević 3. Bale 4. Kroos 5. Popescu 6. Jorginho 7. Jeremies 8. Grosso 9. Gamarra 10. Canizares 11. Ivan Cordoba
  6. Joga Bonito/Balu - 1. Bergomi 2. Xabi Alonso 3. Dani Alves 4. Häßler 5. Forlán 6. Ferri 7. Dunga 8. Aimar 9. Crespo 10. Carboni 11. Eike Immel
  7. mazhar13/Boycott - 1. Shevchenko 2. Aldair 3. Donadoni 4. Luis Enrique 5. Cocu 6. Pique 7. Chendo 8. Kahn 9. Serginho 10. Uwe Bein 11. Wynton Rufer
  8. VivaJanuzaj/MJJ - 1. Müller 2. Eto'o 3. Guardiola 4. T. Silva 5. Samuel 6. Abidal 7. Sneijder 8. Khedira 9. Robinho 10. Klos 11. Carvajal
  9. RedTiger - 1. Ballack 2. Zambrotta 3 Ayala 4. Vidal 5. Aguero 6. Paulo Sousa 7. Panucci 8. Francescoli 9. Wörns 10. Butt 11. Mijatovic
  10. Aldo/The Stain - 1. Davids 2. Littbarski 3. Mendieta 4. Montero 5. Makaay 6. Henry 7. Mascherano 8. Angloma 9. Candela 10. Linke 11. Aumann
  11. Marty1968 - 1. Seedorf 2. Costacurta 3. Berthold 4. Gattuso 5. Scholl 6. Benarrivo 7.Babbel 8. Butragueño 9. Zamorano 10. Lehmann 11. McManaman
  12. Sjor Bepo/anant - 1. Stam 2. Alaba 3. Camoranesi 4. Godin 5. Gündoğan 6. Kluivert 7. Javi Martinez 8. Gascoigne 9. Futre 10. Juanfran 11. Peruzzi
  13. Isotope - 1. Cafu 2. Weah 3. Ze Roberto 4. Mauro Silva 5. Hummels 6. Signori 7. Sanchis 8. van Bommel 9. Illgner 10. Valeron 11. David Pizarro
  14. Skizzo/Pat_Mustard - 1. Hierro 2. Ruggeri 3. Klinsmann 4. Bebeto 5. Möller 6. Chiellini 7. Baraja 8. Ziege 9. Pogba 10. Zenga 11. Basler
  15. Tuppet - 1. R. Carlos 2. Zanetti 3. Völler 4. Ferrara 5. Riquelme 6. B. Laudrup 7. Nadal 8. De Rossi 9. Balakov 10. Zubizarreta 11. Caniggia 12. Eilts
  16. Edgar Allan Pillow - 1. B Lizarazu 2. W Sagnol 3. C Vieri 4. J Boateng 5. D Simeone 6. E Cambiasso 7. Deco 8. F de Boer 9. A Kopke 10. F Inzaghi 11. I Helguera 12. A Di Livio
Blocked list:
Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Busquets, Romario, Redondo, Xavi, Rijkaard, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Messi, Luis Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski, Van Basten, Baresi, Maldini, Matthaus, Nesta, Kohler, Van Nistelrooy, Suarez, Zidane, Buffon, Casillas, Neuer, Sammer, M. Laudrup, Gullit, Batistuta, Baggio, Pirlo, Stoichkov, Desailly, Thuram, Brehme, Tassotti, Iniesta, Koeman, Raul, Rui Costa, Del Piero, Figo, Rivaldo, Effenberg, Cannavaro, Makelele.

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard
 
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