Keir Starmer Labour Leader

The Boy said:
This is Starmer's biggest task and the reason why so many people are sceptical. We know that centrist neo-liberalism might work for a bit butv tends to collapse in the face of rising populism (see France, USA, even here etc) My problem with Starmer is that he seems to represent that and that will lead to the rise of the right.

I liked and voted for Corbyn's policies as many did, but he was a weak leader, Starmer seems to be made of sterner stuff, but he is playing to small the c conservative majority. My hope is that he is making the Labour party as small a target as possible to woo those voters and get into power with a large majority and once in, they'll begin to shift towards the left. People need to see government really working for them and that means proper socialist policies, otherwise it'll just be seen as more of the same and we will eventually end up with a Farage or Badendoch as Prime Minister. A Cameron-lite government, which lots of people fear from Starmer, would create even more fertile ground for populism.

I'm lucky enough to live in a constituency where the Greens stand a very real chance of winning and as a result I will be voting for them as I want parliament to be as left of centre as possible. If I was in any doubt about Labour's victory, I would switch my vote to make sure we got rid of the Tories, but thankfully that doesn't seem to be an issue. My hope is that the Lib Dems beat the Tories and become the party of opposition, but that's probably just a dream, unless we have another D-Day moment.
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Yeah same here, in the choice between Corbyn and Johnson it was easy to pick Jezza. But I'm certain he would have been an abject failure with Ukraine and that represents such a threat to us that it would have been disastrous. I'm hoping Keir is just playing it cool and not pissing off the left or right too much so that he can get into office and work on maintaining a centrist government for the forseeable future.

I like the LibDems, Davey and Daisy seem like genuinely good people, and having them in opposition would be great as Labour can do deals with them. But you just know Starmer is going to keep getting hit from the nutty left and loud voices on the terrifying right harping on about wedge issues all while trying to solve almost insurmountable financial problems in every department. He's got a huge job ahead.
 
2mufc0 said:
Maybe so, but that wasn't what we were debating.

Even though the UK do have a responsibility to help resolving it giving their history in the conflict.
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Do Israel give one single feck about anything we tell them? They dance to the US tunes, not ours.
 
Grinner said:
Do Israel give one single feck about anything we tell them? They dance to the US tunes, not ours.
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Unconditional support of Israel with the way they have been behaving isn't sustainable, US hegemony is slowly declining. It's not about whether Israel listen to us only, once the UK change their position, France are more likely to then other countries will follow suit. But we have to take that first step even if it seems futile in this very moment. Leaving things like they are will be how we looked back at apartheid in SA. I would hope we wouldn't be on the wrong side of history again.
 
MoskvaRed said:
You expect too much of the UK - given it’s self-imposed isolation after Brexit, there is no way it will go directly against a key US policy. Neither have most of the other West European nations for that matter (unlike the invasion of Iraq in 2003).

As for Starmer, it’s simple voting tactics - the sad truth is that most British people don’t really care that much about this issue while taking an anti-Israeli position risks re-opening the anti-Semitic narrative of the Corbyn years. Also, there is no obvious strategic rationale for the UK to support Palestine (unlike Ukraine). It’s not morally defensible but since when did morality dictate national policy?

I fully get why some voters will defect to the Greens over this issue. Maybe I would too but my MP was dismissed from the shadow cabinet over this issue and so it seems right to support him.
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I've already explained to Grinner above why this unconditional support of Israel isn't sustainable and things are changing, Norway, Ireland and Spain recently recognised a Palestinian state, this won't make a difference in the short run but I'm sure it's starting to make other European countries think twice about it and I would hope it is a start of a domino on this matter.
 
2mufc0 said:
Unconditional support of Israel with the way they have been behaving isn't sustainable, US hegemony is slowly declining. It's not about whether Israel listen to us only, once the UK change their position, France are more likely to then other countries will follow suit. But we have to take that first step even if it seems futile in this very moment. Leaving things like they are will be how we looked back at apartheid in SA. I would hope we wouldn't be on the wrong side of history again.
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Why are France waiting for us to make a first move? As for SA, as usual the story is more complicated,

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/10/margaret-thatcher-apartheid-mandela
 
Can't believe how steady and extreme the decline in substance of 'top' politicians of the UK has been in my lifetime. These guys just come across as complete actors and airheads. Just there for show mostly and to serve their masters it seems. They don't even seem to care about hiding it. One has to wonder how long it can last for.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
Can't believe how steady and extreme the decline in substance of 'top' politicians of the UK has been in my lifetime. These guys just come across as complete actors and airheads. Just there for show mostly and to serve their masters it seems. They don't even seem to care about hiding it. One has to wonder how long it can last for.
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It's not limited to the UK. Look at France or Germany since Merkel left (now that was a stateswoman) for example.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
Can't believe how steady and extreme the decline in substance of 'top' politicians of the UK has been in my lifetime. These guys just come across as complete actors and airheads. Just there for show mostly and to serve their masters it seems. They don't even seem to care about hiding it. One has to wonder how long it can last for.
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It’s partly because this generation of career politicians has been raised on the former generation of career politicians and like generative AI they’re just creating ever decreasing and less original versions of themselves where “doing politics” becomes the end game in of itself rather than what the politics is supposed to achieve. The drop off from the likes of Gordon Brown to Ed Balls was pretty massive, but now the AI is being trained entirely on Balls, so all we’re getting is worse and worse balls. It’s balls all the way down now.

The irony of course is that Starmer was actually not this, but seems to have become it by osmosis. Bomb the arabs, tighten the benefits, do austerity, take the tickets to Taylor swift, job done. Does it help? Who cares, we’re being politicians! Yay!
 
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Starmer backed Owen Smith in 2016 and was getting funded by likes of Blair and co when he ran in the 2019 leadership.

What’s happening now isn’t that surprising.
 
Dobba said:
Basically sets the stall out in terms of party direction before a manifesto is drawn up. For example Reeves doesn't want Labour to be the party of the out of work and thinks immigration must be curbed or communities will explode, so you can expect an attempt to win back the North through thinly veiled racism and attacks on scrounging benefit claimants.
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From page one.

Prescient.
 
Mockney said:
It’s partly because this generation of career politicians has been raised on the former generation of career politicians and like generative AI they’re just creating ever decreasing and less original versions of themselves where “doing politics” becomes the end game in of itself rather than what the politics is supposed to achieve. The drop off from the likes of Gordon Brown to Ed Balls was pretty massive, but now the AI is being trained entirely on Balls, so all we’re getting is worse and worse balls. It’s balls all the way down now.

The irony of course is that Starmer was actually not this, but seems to have become it by osmosis. Bomb the arabs, tighten the benefits, do austerity, take the tickets to Taylor swift, job done. Does it help? Who cares, we’re being politicians! Yay!
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The underlying reason for it all comes back to money. This time within the party system itself.

We are all talking about the donations at the minute, but they don;t start in power. What has come out about lord alli having one of his team deciding on who got to be a candidate is kind of the issue.

If rich people want compliant morons who just do what they are told in westminster, the easiest way to do that is to control the parties, and make sure the only people who get a chance to be in westminster are compliant morons who will do what they are told.

That is what is happening, and why it seemed both left and right threw everything at corbyn. He wanted to impliment leveson, stop 2nd jobs for MPs, he even promised to put people on trial for wrongdoing. Not just the poors, but real people, like blair, and the like of mone, being rich wouldn't mean being above the law.

Thats why they all went for him, and the success there means we are doomed to every decreasing quality of politicians. You'll see it in about a year I reckon, because as bad as starmer is, streeting is far, far worse, and he may well be the next PM.
 
Mockney said:
It’s partly because this generation of career politicians has been raised on the former generation of career politicians and like generative AI they’re just creating ever decreasing and less original versions of themselves where “doing politics” becomes the end game in of itself rather than what the politics is supposed to achieve. The drop off from the likes of Gordon Brown to Ed Balls was pretty massive, but now the AI is being trained entirely on Balls, so all we’re getting is worse and worse balls. It’s balls all the way down now.

The irony of course is that Starmer was actually not this, but seems to have become it by osmosis. Bomb the arabs, tighten the benefits, do austerity, take the tickets to Taylor swift, job done. Does it help? Who cares, we’re being politicians! Yay!
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That all sounds very accurate to me
 
What a speech by Starmer yesterday, hit all the right notes (excluding the 'sausage')... go get 'em' Sir Keir.

The 'long (ten year) march' has begun, we will be given our destination and our target spending on budget day, meantime we gather our kit and caboodle and put one foot in front of the other and off we go.... to 'move the dial' or disappear in a puff of smoke!
 
Maticmaker said:
What a speech by Starmer yesterday, hit all the right notes (excluding the 'sausage')... go get 'em' Sir Keir.

The 'long (ten year) march' has begun, we will be given our destination and our target spending on budget day, meantime we gather our kit and caboodle and put one foot in front of the other and off we go.... to 'move the dial' or disappear in a puff of smoke!
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How does rubber taste?
 
Maticmaker said:
What a speech by Starmer yesterday, hit all the right notes (excluding the 'sausage')... go get 'em' Sir Keir.

The 'long (ten year) march' has begun, we will be given our destination and our target spending on budget day, meantime we gather our kit and caboodle and put one foot in front of the other and off we go.... to 'move the dial' or disappear in a puff of smoke!
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The way things are going he won't last the 4 years let alone fecking 10
 
2mufc0 said:
The way things are going he won't last the 4 years let alone fecking 10
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I do appreciate that there is a lot of 'wishful thinking' in this respect going on at the moment (especially in the Caf!!) as far as Starmer is concerned.
However the reality is that with the massive majority he has, even if he loses a few by-elections, and if he stands firm with opponents and internal enemies alike, he can do almost anything (via his parliament majority) to change the face of how Britain is run and governed, especially if he gets ten years, i.e. 'move the dial'

What can blow him of course is the external events,(those currently visible that is) e.g. what happens in US after the Presidential Election, Middle-East exploding and the big one, Ukraine/Russia.

Of course there are a myriad of other issues happening around the world, uncontrolled immigration into Europe from sub -Saharan regions; the climate change case has been understated and the situation will worsen more quickly; China takes advantage of the Wests problems and tries to take over Taiwan; the world is visited by more pandemics, etc. All of these can blow up in Sir Keir's face!
 
Maticmaker said:
I do appreciate that there is a lot of 'wishful thinking' in this respect going on at the moment (especially in the Caf!!) as far as Starmer is concerned.
However the reality is that with the massive majority he has, even if he loses a few by-elections, and if he stands firm with opponents and internal enemies alike, he can do almost anything (via his parliament majority) to change the face of how Britain is run and governed, especially if he gets ten years, i.e. 'move the dial'

What can blow him of course is the external events,(those currently visible that is) e.g. what happens in US after the Presidential Election, Middle-East exploding and the big one, Ukraine/Russia.

Of course there are a myriad of other issues happening around the world, uncontrolled immigration into Europe from sub -Saharan regions; the climate change case has been understated and the situation will worsen more quickly; China takes advantage of the Wests problems and tries to take over Taiwan; the world is visited by more pandemics, etc. All of these can blow up in Sir Keir's face!
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The main culprit for wishful thinking in this thread is you though.

There are no signs that Starmer is even seeking to make any meaningful changes to how things are run and how the lives of the average person in the UK can be improved. And all signs currently point to a guy with a 30% approval rating having little chance of seeing out one full term in Parliament, never mind two.
 
decorativeed said:
And all signs currently point to a guy with a 30% approval rating having little chance of seeing out one full term in Parliament
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How's that going to happen then?
Are you expecting a massive rebellion among the Labour MP's ?

Good luck with that one, I like to know how many Labour MP's are going to put at risk a 5 year (possibly 10 year) job security offer.

This is a once in a lifetime chance for the Labour party, who are not just 'in office' , but in 'real power', to move the dial in favour of working people. Woe-betide any one within the Party who puts this in jeopardy.

If the small boat issue doesn't get sorted by 2029, then REFORM could make a dint in the Labour majority, but
it is really only outside events that in all likelihood could bring the government down.
 
Maticmaker said:
How's that going to happen then?
Are you expecting a massive rebellion among the Labour MP's ?

Good luck with that one, I like to know how many Labour MP's are going to put at risk a 5 year (possibly 10 year) job security offer.

This is a once in a lifetime chance for the Labour party, who are not just 'in office' , but in 'real power', to move the dial in favour of working people. Woe-betide any one within the Party who puts this in jeopardy.

If the small boat issue doesn't get sorted by 2029, then REFORM could make a dint in the Labour majority, but
it is really only outside events that in all likelihood could bring the government down.
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If he's still here in 5 years, I'll buy you a new dial to turn.
 
decorativeed said:
The main culprit for wishful thinking in this thread is you though.

There are no signs that Starmer is even seeking to make any meaningful changes to how things are run and how the lives of the average person in the UK can be improved. And all signs currently point to a guy with a 30% approval rating having little chance of seeing out one full term in Parliament, never mind two.
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I would say it is far too early to make any judgement on this. Their legislative programme is only just up and running and we are still 6 weeks from their first Budget.

They've had a tricky summer with the riots, all sorts of problems with the prison system and then this silly season-esque pile on over donations compounded by poor media management (I think they need an Alistair Campbell type, fast). They've squandered a bit of good will, somewhat unnecessarily in my view, because of it.

Starmer is better at the admin and planning stuff than he is at crisis management, he often looks a bit flat footed and wooden when reacting to events, but it's far too early to be looking at polls and approval ratings.
 
If even half of the rumoured tax increases are announced in October there will be an uproar
 
Mockney said:
It’s partly because this generation of career politicians has been raised on the former generation of career politicians and like generative AI they’re just creating ever decreasing and less original versions of themselves where “doing politics” becomes the end game in of itself rather than what the politics is supposed to achieve. The drop off from the likes of Gordon Brown to Ed Balls was pretty massive, but now the AI is being trained entirely on Balls, so all we’re getting is worse and worse balls. It’s balls all the way down now.

The irony of course is that Starmer was actually not this, but seems to have become it by osmosis. Bomb the arabs, tighten the benefits, do austerity, take the tickets to Taylor swift, job done. Does it help? Who cares, we’re being politicians! Yay!
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perfect
 
Maticmaker said:
How's that going to happen then?
Are you expecting a massive rebellion among the Labour MP's ?

Good luck with that one, I like to know how many Labour MP's are going to put at risk a 5 year (possibly 10 year) job security offer.

This is a once in a lifetime chance for the Labour party, who are not just 'in office' , but in 'real power', to move the dial in favour of working people. Woe-betide any one within the Party who puts this in jeopardy.

If the small boat issue doesn't get sorted by 2029, then REFORM could make a dint in the Labour majority, but
it is really only outside events that in all likelihood could bring the government down.
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The small boat issue cannot be fixed though, there is no solution aside from accepting it.
 
nickm said:
I would say it is far too early to make any judgement on this. Their legislative programme is only just up and running and we are still 6 weeks from their first Budget.

They've had a tricky summer with the riots, all sorts of problems with the prison system and then this silly season-esque pile on over donations compounded by poor media management (I think they need an Alistair Campbell type, fast). They've squandered a bit of good will, somewhat unnecessarily in my view, because of it.

Starmer is better at the admin and planning stuff than he is at crisis management, he often looks a bit flat footed and wooden when reacting to events, but it's far too early to be looking at polls and approval ratings.
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I'm not going to judge him until at least 2 years have been. He has to sort out the current situations before he can start rebuilding.
 
Hammondo said:
The small boat issue cannot be fixed though, there is no solution aside from accepting it.
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It can. Open up legal routes stops it all, pretty much instantly. France has even offered to help fund a UK immigration office in Calais to do it.

But starmer has already said no to that, so you are right, he is not going to stop it at all. Because he doesn't want to.

The reason this narratice about gifts is continuing is because the labour right are rats in a sack. They were fine when they had a target they all hated, the left, but now they have expelled the left, they only have each other to turn against.

Hence the constant briefing. How do I know its briefings? Because look at who is breaking these stories. People who have done zero investigative journalism in a decade. They can only repeat things they are told, and that is what is going on. It won't stop either.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
It can. Open up legal routes stops it all, pretty much instantly. France has even offered to help fund a UK immigration office in Calais to do it.

But starmer has already said no to that, so you are right, he is not going to stop it at all. Because he doesn't want to.

The reason this narratice about gifts is continuing is because the labour right are rats in a sack. They were fine when they had a target they all hated, the left, but now they have expelled the left, they only have each other to turn against.

Hence the constant briefing. How do I know its briefings? Because look at who is breaking these stories. People who have done zero investigative journalism in a decade. They can only repeat things they are told, and that is what is going on. It won't stop either.
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That's what I mean by accepting it. They are going to come and if we do it properly we can make it into a benefit.
 
Hammondo said:
The small boat issue cannot be fixed though, there is no solution aside from accepting it.
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That's the only solution/outcome that cannot stand.

If this Government (or any Government) cannot be seen to defend its own borders, it will ultimately face a vote of no confidence.
This is the one internal issue that might well sink Starmer (and any other follow up PM) if they cannot find a solution. You can be sure REFORM will be monitoring these things closely

Sunak tried Rwanda

Starmer appears to be spreading his options, trying;
To establish a 'Super-duper' Border Force capable of destroying the people smugglers;
agreeing a 'returns arrangement' with other countries, coupled with employing more civil servants to speed up application processing;
considering the Italian model of setting up asylum application processing centres' in other countries.

He will have to hope and pray that some, if not all of the above, persuade people not to clamber into small boats.
 
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