Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Maticmaker said:
That's the only solution/outcome that cannot stand.

If this Government (or any Government) cannot be seen to defend its own borders, it will ultimately face a vote of no confidence.
This is the one internal issue that might well sink Starmer (and any other follow up PM) if they cannot find a solution. You can be sure REFORM will be monitoring these things closely

Sunak tried Rwanda

Starmer appears to be spreading his options, trying;
To establish a 'Super-duper' Border Force capable of destroying the people smugglers;
agreeing a 'returns arrangement' with other countries, coupled with employing more civil servants to speed up application processing;
considering the Italian model of setting up asylum application processing centres' in other countries.

He will have to hope and pray that some, if not all of the above, persuade people not to clamber into small boats.
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Reform can monitor what they want, but they have no solution.

"To establish a 'Super-duper' Border Force capable of destroying the people smugglers; " What exactly are you expecting them to do?

'returns arrangement' Well these other countries will have demands, if they are even willing to listen. It is also expensive.

"considering the Italian model of setting up asylum application processing centres' in other countries." Many legal problems, limitations and costs. Rwanda was a disaster.
 
Maticmaker said:
That's the only solution/outcome that cannot stand.

If this Government (or any Government) cannot be seen to defend its own borders, it will ultimately face a vote of no confidence.
This is the one internal issue that might well sink Starmer (and any other follow up PM) if they cannot find a solution. You can be sure REFORM will be monitoring these things closely

Sunak tried Rwanda

Starmer appears to be spreading his options, trying;
To establish a 'Super-duper' Border Force capable of destroying the people smugglers;
agreeing a 'returns arrangement' with other countries, coupled with employing more civil servants to speed up application processing;
considering the Italian model of setting up asylum application processing centres' in other countries.

He will have to hope and pray that some, if not all of the above, persuade people not to clamber into small boats.
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It's amazing how vulnerable we've become to invasions since they invented boats a few years ago. Maybe we should build a wall across the south coast.

Or we could open asylum application centres in France to kill the need for smuggling. We'd have no one to blame for our failing society though if we do that, so that's off the cards for now.
 
Hammondo said:
Reform can monitor what they want, but they have no solution.
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Oh, I think they probably do, they will not release details yet, but if we get to the next GE and Starmer has not stopped the boats, or worse still has yet to find the dial, let alone begun to move it, Reform (as a party) will be battle ready and waiting.

A lot could depend on whether Farage's mate gets in over the water.
 
Maticmaker said:
Oh, I think they probably do, they will not release details yet, but if we get to the next GE and Starmer has not stopped the boats, or worse still has yet to find the dial, let alone begun to move it, Reform (as a party) will be battle ready and waiting.

A lot could depend on whether Farage's mate gets in over the water.
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No they will lie and pretend they have a solution, or claim they can do something when they cannot. That's what they always do.
 
Hammondo said:
No they will lie and pretend they have a solution, or claim they can do something when they cannot. That's what they always do.
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So, they are really no different to any other politicians..... "lies, dam lies..." and lets wait till they get to 'the statistics'?
 
Maticmaker said:
So, they are really no different to any other politicians..... "lies, dam lies..." and lets wait till they get to 'the statistics'?
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You're very odd. I'm no fan of Labour and I despise the Tories, but even trying to equate Reform to the Tories is a stretch, never mind Labour. The Tories at least make vague plans to back up whatever bullshit they're saying, because that's what you have to do if you're going to be in power. If you know you're not you can just say any old shit and then disappear (to a Trump rally usually).
 
Bert_ said:
It's amazing how vulnerable we've become to invasions since they invented boats a few years ago. Maybe we should build a wall across the south coast.

Or we could open asylum application centres in France to kill the need for smuggling. We'd have no one to blame for our failing society though if we do that, so that's off the cards for now.
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I think we have been vulnerable to invasions by boats since the days of Julius Caesar , the Vikings, the Spanish Armada, the aftermath of Dunkirk, etc.

This invasion makes us vulnerable in a different way, because these arrivals don't want to fight us, they want to join us, that presents lots of problems we never had to face before, it puts a 'stress test' on the UK that has never really happened before.

These arrivals don't come to steal, but they do want to share, and lots of our people don't fancy that... at all!

Incidentally building walls to keep people out (or in) has never been that efficient in the modern world, certainly not on any islands, and with limited effect on land, unless you patrol day and night with armed personnel.

Hence I don't see a wall around the south coast having much value... do you?
 
Maticmaker said:
I think we have been vulnerable to invasions by boats since the days of Julius Caesar , the Vikings, the Spanish Armada, the aftermath of Dunkirk, etc.

This invasion makes us vulnerable in a different way, because these arrivals don't want to fight us, they want to join us, that presents lots of problems we never had to face before, it puts a 'stress test' on the UK that has never really happened before.

These arrivals don't come to steal, but they do want to share, and lots of our people don't fancy that... at all!

Incidentally building walls to keep people out (or in) has never been that efficient in the modern world, certainly not on any islands, and with limited effect on land, unless you patrol day and night with armed personnel.

Hence I don't see a wall around the south coast having much value... do you?
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:lol: fecking hell. Yeah you're right, no immigrants ever came to settle here and build a life before did they? https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-10000-years-ago-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/

Those pesky Irish people, Britons, Scots, Italians, Spanish, Dutch, Normans, French, Norsemen, Saxons, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Caribbeans, Africans, South Americans, all came here to murder the locals and steal everything. Mental age of a toddler if you believe that.
 
Maticmaker said:
I think we have been vulnerable to invasions by boats since the days of Julius Caesar , the Vikings, the Spanish Armada, the aftermath of Dunkirk, etc.
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And the Angles, Saxons and Jutes who came to settle, not raid. As well as the Vikings who came to settle. And the Flemish and Dutch etc.

Maticmaker said:
This invasion makes us vulnerable in a different way, because these arrivals don't want to fight us, they want to join us, that presents lots of problems we never had to face before, it puts a 'stress test' on the UK that has never really happened before.
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The country has never had to deal with people immigrating here to live amongst us? Forget the historical stuff, in your lifetime that's never happened until now? What are you on about?

Maticmaker said:
These arrivals don't come to steal, but they do want to share, and lots of our people don't fancy that... at all!
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No, lot's of people are fecking selfish and have no concept of common good. It doesn't require immigrants to see that in action.

Maticmaker said:
Incidentally building walls to keep people out (or in) has never been that efficient in the modern world, certainly not on any islands, and with limited effect on land, unless you patrol day and night with armed personnel.

Hence I don't see a wall around the south coast having much value... do you?
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It was a satirical comment on the concept that the nation is facing something it has never has experienced before. Despite experiencing it for thousands of years. Never mind.
 
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ShinjiNinja26 said:
Tory in disguise.
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His a socialist, maybe even Trotskyist

"We would be better to go forward to re-build and develop the party as an instrument of socialism, capable of integrating into its project the emergence of the new social movements of the last twenty years”.

I think he's backed himself into a corner, he's has seemingly been taking a dose and he's got some debts to pay.

He still has the nurses and that union to pay, blackrock is on for the rental markets after the house building, whatever Lord Alli is after but I have a feeling that he'll have ties to a large corp somewhere.

They are all at it though.
 
TwoSheds said:
:lol: fecking hell. Yeah you're right, no immigrants ever came to settle here and build a life before did they?
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Of course they did something like 80% of people in this country originate from immigrant stock. I was making the difference between the use of boats, comparing those who came to conquer and those to settle, but of course you misread, didn't you?
Bert_ said:
The country has never had to deal with people immigrating here to live amongst us? Forget the historical stuff, in your lifetime that's never happened until now? What are you on about?
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Not in such unplanned numbers, in a short time frame; but yes there have been immigrants coming to these shores to settle for centuries (as opposed to those coming for other purposes), but never so many in so short a time. That is the reality whether you like it or not and why immigrants are becoming the butt of all issues contributing to disfunctioning of government systems and an excuse for Farage and Reform to whip up a state of 'victim hood' feeling in large sections of the community.

Stopping the boats has become a 'totem' issue for British PM's. Also across Europe its now becoming a rallying point for various right wing factions, it will get worse before it gets better.
The irony is that the UK and many other European countries will need immigrants come and settle to maintain growth and service provisions for the future, but until it is organised properly across the Northern hemisphere as a whole, with numbers, timescales as well as access routes, it will continue to be a source of contention.
 
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Maticmaker said:
Of course they did something like 80% of people in this country originate from immigrant stock. I was making the difference between the use of boats, comparing those who came to conquer and those to settle, but of course you misread, didn't you?

Not in such unplanned numbers, in a short time frame; but yes there have been immigrants coming to these shores to settle for centuries (as opposed to those coming for other purposes), but never so many in so short a time. That is the reality whether you like it or not and why immigrants are becoming the butt of all issues contributing to disfunctioning of government systems and an excuse for Farage and Reform to whip up a state of 'victim hood' feeling in large sections of the community.

Stopping the boats has become a 'totem' issue for British PM's. Also across Europe its now becoming a rallying point for various right wing factions, it will get worse before it gets better.
The irony is that the UK and many other European countries will need immigrants come and settle to maintain growth and service provisions for the future, but until it is organised properly across the Northern hemisphere as a whole, with numbers, timescales as well as access routes, it will continue to be a source of contention.
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Something like 100% come from immigrant stock tbf, you didn't read the article about Cheddar Man did you? And about 99% of those came by boat, sometimes all in one go. Windrush for example.
 
TwoSheds said:
Something like 100% come from immigrant stock tbf, you didn't read the article about Cheddar Man did you? And about 99% of those came by boat, sometimes all in one go. Windrush for example.
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I was not counting the Scots, Irish and Welsh, mostly from Celtic origins, as immigrants, who had been travelling across and between what is now the UK/ RoI forever.

What has Windrush got to do with anything?
The numbers coming were known, they did not arrive unexpectedly or out of the blue, they were invited HM Government and arrangements made. These people were not refugees, they were from BOT and mostly already had a right to come; again, mostly coming to fill employment vacancies.
However, what did go wrong was the documentation 'trail' for some people went astray and was not completed for the rights to stay and hence for them and for second and third and follow up generations some difficulties arose for them to be officially recognised as full British Citizens.
 
Maticmaker said:
.
However what did go wrong was the documentation 'trail' for some people went astray and was not completed for the rights to stay and hence for them and for second and third and follow up generations some difficulties arose for them to be officially recognised as full British Citizens.
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What actually happened is that theresa may changed the rules for requiring proof of arrival to claim various benefits and pensions, after the government had destroyed the landing passes that formed that proof of arrival.

She did that knowing exactly where it would lead, because she was told where it would lead. Whether she is an out and out racist or just utterly incompetent, only she knows.

She did let amber rudd take the fall for her though.
 
Maticmaker said:
I was not counting the Scots, Irish and Welsh, mostly from Celtic origins, as immigrants, who had been travelling across and between what is now the UK/ RoI forever.

What has Windrush got to do with anything?
The numbers coming were known, they did not arrive unexpectedly or out of the blue, they were invited HM Government and arrangements made. These people were not refugees, they were from BOT and mostly already had a right to come; again, mostly coming to fill employment vacancies.
However, what did go wrong was the documentation 'trail' for some people went astray and was not completed for the rights to stay and hence for them and for second and third and follow up generations some difficulties arose for them to be officially recognised as full British Citizens.
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Given that human life did not develop in Britain, literally every cnut you meet is decended from immigrants. I actually find the fact that you call what's going on now an invasion pretty despicable.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
What actually happened is that theresa may changed the rules for requiring proof of arrival to claim various benefits and pensions, after the government had destroyed the landing passes that formed that proof of arrival.

She did that knowing exactly where it would lead, because she was told where it would lead. Whether she is an out and out racist or just utterly incompetent, only she knows.

She did let amber rudd take the fall for her though.
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Yes, Thanks, I used the words 'trail' and astray, because there was some issues that were never made clear, about who did what and when.
 
Raven said:
I actually find the fact that you call what's going on now an invasion pretty despicable.
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Sorry about that, but for a large percentage of people in this country, that is exactly how they see it, because
people who may well turn out to be refugees and may well turn out to have rights to stay, are being illegally trafficked into the country by criminals.

Other safe routes and ways must be found, but being trafficked by criminals is illegal and has to be stopped and incites and inflames all sorts of notions which mitigate against a rationale solution for immigration in general.
 
Maticmaker said:
Other safe routes and ways must be found.
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The safe routes were there and operated for years. Before brexit we could even return people to France, now we cannot.

All of it, every method of entering the country, was shut down, by choice, by the government. Starmer's team are continuing it.

The important point is that this whole 'immigration crisis' is entirely fabricated by politicians. All of it. Start to finish.

It could end tomorrow. The real question is, why doesn't it?
 
Nogbadthebad said:
The safe routes were there and operated for years. Before brexit we could even return people to France, now we cannot.

All of it, every method of entering the country, was shut down, by choice, by the government. Starmer's team are continuing it.

The important point is that this whole 'immigration crisis' is entirely fabricated by politicians. All of it. Start to finish.

It could end tomorrow. The real question is, why doesn't it?
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It's not entirely a fabrication, large numbers of people entering the population in a short space of time, disrupts all sorts of government planning and census information gets distorted.
I agree that politicians 'feed' off this aspect for various reasons, and eventually get identified by their responses. The reason half of Europe is struggling with the same issue and the same political problems are allowing the right wing groups to take the initiative.

'Immigration crisis' it's not a figment of someone's imagination, there are problems and mass migration is a major issue that will only grow and become an even more of a true crisis, if not tackled sensibly. Hence the further we go down that misguided ('it could all end tomorrow') route the more the problem grows and the more power will switch to the right.

Governments across the first world, in the Northern Hemisphere in particular, need to co-ordinate their responses and act in unison over the next decade before the sub-Saharan regions become uninhabitable through climate change.
 
Those persons who comprised the Windrush generations were British. Not residents of a British Overseas Territory. But Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) and therefore already full British citizens (or subjects).

Nogbadthebad said:
What actually happened is that theresa may changed the rules for requiring proof of arrival to claim various benefits and pensions, after the government had destroyed the landing passes that formed that proof of arrival.

She did that knowing exactly where it would lead, because she was told where it would lead. Whether she is an out and out racist or just utterly incompetent, only she knows.

She did let amber rudd take the fall for her though.
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We ignored our own laws. For decades. We changed people's status without telling them. May is sadly following a distinct pattern which went on for decades.

British subjecthood applied to anyone born in the King's (or Queen's) dominions. It just happened to be based on a racial judgment where we assumed only white people would be travelling to the UK.

Also, here's a fun fact - we have no constitutional right to citizenship.
 
Frosty said:
Those persons who comprised the Windrush generations were British. Not residents of a British Overseas Territory. But Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) and therefore already full British citizens (or subjects).
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Agreed, I used the BOT reference because I thought that Windrush passenger list also included some people from Anguilla, Bermuda, etc. However, those from British Colonies all had rights to British Citizenship.
Frosty said:
Also, here's a fun fact - we have no constitutional right to citizenship.
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Indeed, but we are all Subjects of the King, or our allegiance is to and bound by, the laws of the Monarchy, which is nice to know!
 
Maticmaker said:
Sorry about that, but for a large percentage of people in this country, that is exactly how they see it, because
people who may well turn out to be refugees and may well turn out to have rights to stay, are being illegally trafficked into the country by criminals.

Other safe routes and ways must be found, but being trafficked by criminals is illegal and has to be stopped and incites and inflames all sorts of notions which mitigate against a rationale solution for immigration in general.
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Yeah, maybe don't go repeating horrible racist shit if you don't agree with it.
 
Maticmaker said:
It's not entirely a fabrication, large numbers of people entering the population in a short space of time, disrupts all sorts of government planning and census information gets distorted.
I agree that politicians 'feed' off this aspect for various reasons, and eventually get identified by their responses. The reason half of Europe is struggling with the same issue and the same political problems are allowing the right wing groups to take the initiative.

'Immigration crisis' it's not a figment of someone's imagination, there are problems and mass migration is a major issue that will only grow and become an even more of a true crisis, if not tackled sensibly. Hence the further we go down that misguided ('it could all end tomorrow') route the more the problem grows and the more power will switch to the right.

Governments across the first world, in the Northern Hemisphere in particular, need to co-ordinate their responses and act in unison over the next decade before the sub-Saharan regions become uninhabitable through climate change.
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To really tackle the refugee/immigration crisis the west will have to stop making certain sections of the globe uninhabitable. Unfortunately most people aren't ready/willing to have that conversation.
 
Maticmaker said:
I was not counting the Scots, Irish and Welsh, mostly from Celtic origins, as immigrants, who had been travelling across and between what is now the UK/ RoI forever.

What has Windrush got to do with anything?
The numbers coming were known, they did not arrive unexpectedly or out of the blue, they were invited HM Government and arrangements made. These people were not refugees, they were from BOT and mostly already had a right to come; again, mostly coming to fill employment vacancies.
However, what did go wrong was the documentation 'trail' for some people went astray and was not completed for the rights to stay and hence for them and for second and third and follow up generations some difficulties arose for them to be officially recognised as full British Citizens.
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The Welsh and Cornish are the original Britons, the rest are invaders, none of them presented their louse-ridden passports at the border or had the courtesy to warn anyone of their arrival in advance the pox-ridden whores. Neither did the Britons when they took Cheddar Man's lands tbf. Immigration and race are the most artificial constructs imaginable. It's understandable in an overpopulated world that our monkey brains would seek to restrict it, but trying to criminalise people for it is patently absurd.
 
dumbo said:
Guy is like a deleted scene from Blue Velvet; a stomach churning, night terror of an abberation.
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Reminds of the zombies in Minecraft.
 
He’s a snake. Follow his progression from back bencher to front bencher to party leader to leading the party election to leading the country and you’ll see a man who will say anything he thinks will benefit him and believes in absolutely nothing but his self interests.
 
Raven said:
To really tackle the refugee/immigration crisis the west will have to stop making certain sections of the globe uninhabitable. Unfortunately most people aren't ready/willing to have that conversation.
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100%. My ethnic background is Pakistani. That country has a lot of problems, but they pale in comparison to the 1 real problem, the elite of Pakistan. These people run the country like a colony. All of them have wealth and family in the UK or the USA. Corrupt Generals and Politicians loot the country dry and then run off to the West to live their billionaire lifestyles.

Meanwhile the West is happy to deal with these people because they know it's easier to manipulate them to put Western interests ahead of Pakistani national interests. No amount of violence against ethnic minorities, or journalists or political opponents, no amount of political or journalistic repression can trigger any sanctions against these powerful individuals.

Would Russia be where it is today of all the Oligarchs hadn't been able to store all their wealth abroad?
 
Raven said:
To really tackle the refugee/immigration crisis the west will have to stop making certain sections of the globe uninhabitable. Unfortunately most people aren't ready/willing to have that conversation.
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You don't sound like a friend of the motorist.
 
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