Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Don't Kill Bill said:
Yes, I think so too. The only person to win an election for Labour in my lifetime is Tony Blair. The circumstances of his rise to become leader were very unusual and timed to very specific moments which are unlikely ever to be recreated.

He got to define himself in the public's eye by avoiding the negative attacks which were aimed at John Smith who passed away leaving Blair untarnished. The Tories were also divided and too busy fighting among themselves.

Its depressing to think that Labour has no one the public knows well from a public recognition point of view, so the Tory press will define the next leader just as odiously as they always do and that will be how the public see them for the next four years. It doesn't look good for winning the next election.
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It wasn’t really a specific set of circumstances unlikely to be recreated though was it?

The tories have been fighting amongst themselves as fervently as they ever have over the past three years and what did Momentum/Corbyn do? Stay at the helm, dither and refuse to capitalise. If you put a Blairite candidate as leader after everyone told hem Corbyn was unelectable as Prime Minister the Labour Party would have won in 2017, let alone 2019.
 
Wolverine said:
Its been a few days. The changes will come.
Its not easy for the PLP and other senior labour figureheads but as much as they want to avoid dramatic infighting ish headlines they will be working behind the scenes for Corbyn to go to start the process of getting a new leader sooner rather than later.
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He should have the respect for the party to go immediately, instead of further clinging on.
 
That'sHernandez said:
He should have the respect for the party to go immediately, instead of further clinging on.
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Agreed, he is annoyingly stubborn is many regards, he will weirdly see it as "principled" to hang on until next leader is elected but labour will get the ball rolling to get him out in due course, his position is untenable. I think the introspective time has a purpose especially for contesting candidates to get their acts together to mount well thought out leadership challenges but Corbyn is certainly toxic now and he should make way sooner rather than later.
 
Wolverine said:
Agreed, he is annoyingly stubborn is many regards, he will weirdly see it as "principled" to hang on until next leader is elected but labour will get the ball rolling to get him out in due course, his position is untenable. I think the introspective time has a purpose especially for contesting candidates to get their acts together to mount well thought out leadership challenges but Corbyn is certainly toxic now and he should make way sooner rather than later.
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Introspection can be done without him. Any introspection with him will be tainted, get rid of him and McDonnell
 
11101 said:
I've been saying that for ages. His appearance makes people think he's a soft old man but he harbours a hatred and a desire to divide the country like I've never seen before in the UK.
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I do dislike the man, not least for his dishonesty, but as far as wanting to divide the country goes he doesn't even come close to Thatcher. Corbyn's just a tosser, she was genuine evil.
 
Where have all his acolytes and apologisers gone now we can roundly say ‘I told you so’? They’re conveniently quiet
 
711 said:
Not at all, they're over in the election thread saying the working classes are stupid and easily deceived by the nasty media.
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Ah right. Same thing one of my friends is doing, no acknowledgement of the real issue whatsoever.
 
Wolverine said:
Its been a few days. The changes will come.
Its not easy for the PLP and other senior labour figureheads but as much as they want to avoid dramatic infighting ish headlines they will be working behind the scenes for Corbyn to go to start the process of getting a new leader sooner rather than later.
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I'm aware of the process.

But that's just it isn't it? Process, time, introspection. I don't care about people and their doorstep anecdotes nor the moral high ground, Labour have lost the confidence in people. And to think they are going to get that back by doing the same fecking thing over and over is outstandingly myopic.

The Labour bubble is so unbelievably thick, even Boris Johnson sledgehammering it into oblivion hasn't dented it, it seems. BBC/brexit/doorstep challenges/racist/stupidity/centre being dead/weather/etc there's plenty to hide behind and all of those have been wheeled out all while people acting like Labour should stay the same. It's a complete lack of self awareness.
 
That'sHernandez said:
It wasn’t really a specific set of circumstances unlikely to be recreated though was it?

The tories have been fighting amongst themselves as fervently as they ever have over the past three years and what did Momentum/Corbyn do? Stay at the helm, dither and refuse to capitalise. If you put a Blairite candidate as leader after everyone told hem Corbyn was unelectable as Prime Minister the Labour Party would have won in 2017, let alone 2019.
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How many times has the leader of the opposition died in office.
 
711 said:
Not at all, they're over in the election thread saying the working classes are stupid and easily deceived by the nasty media.
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My personal favourite is it's now fine to accept you are in a bubble, an echo chamber, yet still can't have the self awareness to think about why that might be an issue debating what should change.

The Labour excuse bingo card has well and truly been stamped too.
 
That'sHernandez said:
He should have the respect for the party to go immediately, instead of further clinging on.
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An immediate leadership contest would probably be a bad thing, tbf. A period of introspection and analysis is needed first lest they make another terrible appointment.
 
sullydnl said:
An immediate leadership contest would probably be a bad thing, tbf. A period of introspection and analysis is needed first lest they make another terrible appointment.
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Yep. They'd do well to spend the next year or two doing a bit of soul-searching, while closely monitoring the public's take on how the Tories are going about handling the Brexit withdrawal.
 
How about NO immediate leadership contest? How about Corbyn does the right thing for once and the party push the narrative that they are going to have a nightwatchmen whilst they do the soul searching?

At least then people would see that they are actually trying to sort their mess out. All Corbyn being in power is doing is further proving people right that they can't be trusted. (and I mean that in their minds before someone does the usual...)


At the moment everyone, and I mean everyone I've talked to in real life have said the same thing. Typical he hasn't gone yet. Anecdotal maybe, but these are people I managed to convince to vote Labour in the first place, people who already say never again. It's a real problem and a Labour party once again showing to be stuck in their ways is just not a good look at all.
 
Thing about a caretaker is that it's usually been the deputy leader, of which Labour currently has none. So picking one becomes inherently political.

By the sounds of it the PLP are considering unilaterally choosing a parliamentary leader.
 
Redlambs said:
How about NO immediate leadership contest? How about Corbyn does the right thing for once and the party push the narrative that they are going to have a nightwatchmen whilst they do the soul searching?

At least then people would see that they are actually trying to sort their mess out. All Corbyn being in power is doing is further proving people right that they can't be trusted. (and I mean that in their minds before someone does the usual...)


At the moment everyone, and I mean everyone I've talked to in real life have said the same thing. Typical he hasn't gone yet. Anecdotal maybe, but these are people I managed to convince to vote Labour in the first place, people who already say never again. It's a real problem and a Labour party once again showing to be stuck in their ways is just not a good look at all.
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Why do you think they won’t make the change swiftly?
 
Ubik said:
Thing about a caretaker is that it's usually been the deputy leader, of which Labour currently has none. So picking one becomes inherently political.

By the sounds of it the PLP are considering unilaterally choosing a parliamentary leader.
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Would be the wisest move, personally think Thornberry should take on that role for now.

The big issue is Corbyn has no credibility to challenge Boris on anything so staying just lets Boris have a free ride. I expect he'll go next week they're just buying some time for things to form but we'll see.
 
Smores said:
Would be the wisest move, personally think Thornberry should take on that role for now.

The big issue is Corbyn has no credibility to challenge Boris on anything so staying just lets Boris have a free ride. I expect he'll go next week they're just buying some time for things to form but we'll see.
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I believe the nec has power to appoint a temporary leader if Corbyn steps down... But given the momentum infiltration of the nec it would probably be burgon or some other crazy pick
 
Next PM questions will be brutal for Jeremy. The smug faces on Johnson and the front bench will be painful to see.
 
Adisa said:
Next PM questions will be brutal for Jeremy. The smug faces on Johnson and the front bench will be painful to see.
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Can he just not bother turning up? He’s got nothing to lose or gain, and he can always deflect by pointing to Boris’ cowardice with Andrew Neil and the other recent debates/interviews he tucked tail on.
 
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Guy Incognito said:
No different to John Major in 97, but there was an underlying respect between him and Blair.
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Not sure there was... Especially after this

I do think Blair thought gloating would make him look bad especially as he was the first labour pm in a long time and wanted to look statesman like... And I'm not sure Johnson cares about that so yeah fully expect Johnson to pile on.
 
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Next PMQs isn't until January. I suspect the poor fellow will be put out of his misery by then.
 
711 said:
I do dislike the man, not least for his dishonesty, but as far as wanting to divide the country goes he doesn't even come close to Thatcher. Corbyn's just a tosser, she was genuine evil.
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Thatcher did what had to be done, hard as that was for some sections of the country, and the majority see her as a great PM because of it. She even came ahead of Churchill in a recent Yougov survey of our greatest post-war leaders.
 
11101 said:
Thatcher did what had to be done, hard as that was for some sections of the country, and the majority see her as a great PM because of it. She even came ahead of Churchill in a recent Yougov survey of our greatest post-war leaders.
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well to be fair Churchills post war political career was basically a defeat and then pm from 1951 to 1955 with some "questionable" attitudes
Churchill tried in vain to manoeuvre the cabinet into restricting West Indian immigration. "Keep England White" was a good slogan, he told the cabinet in January 1955.[527] Ian Gilmour records Churchill saying to him, in 1955, about immigration: "I think it is the most important subject facing this country, but I cannot get any of my ministers to take any notice".[528]
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but certainly post war was very much a footnote to his pre war and wartime political career
 
11101 said:
Thatcher did what had to be done, hard as that was for some sections of the country, and the majority see her as a great PM because of it. She even came ahead of Churchill in a recent Yougov survey of our greatest post-war leaders.
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There would be absolutely no contest in who would win a most hated survey, you might as well not bother counting anyone else's votes. Thatcher was simply a class warrior who's sole objective was to put the working class back in their place, and she didn't care how much damage she would have to do to the country to achieve that.
 
711 said:
There would be absolutely no contest in who would win a most hated survey, you might as well not bother counting anyone else's votes. Thatcher was simply a class warrior who's sole objective was to put the working class back in their place, and she didn't care how much damage she would have to do to the country to achieve that.
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Oh I know the people in the towns she killed off (including my own) will always hate her, but the history books will remember her favourably, they already do. The fact is those towns and industries were already dead, she just dealt the final blow.
 
11101 said:
Oh I know the people in the towns she killed off (including my own) will always hate her, but the history books will remember her favourably, they already do. The fact is those towns and industries were already dead, she just dealt the final blow.
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and lets be honest bolsover, ashfield, mansfield... you wouldn't have found many more anti thatcher places ... large ex mining communities with a real hatred of thatcher - but over the 30 years or more since the miners strikes the demographics have changed and whislt you will find plenty of people in those areas who hate thatcher and hate the conservatives (probably in that order) you also now have 3 conservative MP's representing those areas ... labour cant survive simply on thatcher hatred (the demographics wont allow it) ... corbyn certainly wasnt the solution - an absolutly toxic brand up in this part of the world (even more so than thatcher id say)
 
711 said:
There would be absolutely no contest in who would win a most hated survey, you might as well not bother counting anyone else's votes. Thatcher was simply a class warrior who's sole objective was to put the working class back in their place, and she didn't care how much damage she would have to do to the country to achieve that.
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you really can tell those who actually lived through the Thatcher or Blair years against those who only know them via social media. Firstly the mining industry was already
dying in the UK. The way Thatcher went about dismantling it was shameful but the power of the Unions just had to be broken. Scargill and Co were twice as dangerous as JC.

Secondly she tapped into the aspirations of the working class with the sale of council houses at a serious discount.....fostering home ownership.
 
11101 said:
Oh I know the people in the towns she killed off (including my own) will always hate her, but the history books will remember her favourably, they already do. The fact is those towns and industries were already dead, she just dealt the final blow.
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We definitely get very different history books in Ireland.
 
11101 said:
Thatcher did what had to be done, hard as that was for some sections of the country, and the majority see her as a great PM because of it. She even came ahead of Churchill in a recent Yougov survey of our greatest post-war leaders.
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Decimating all industry in an area and providing nothing (other than disdain) to compensate for the loss of jobs is going over and above doing “what had to be done”.
 
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