Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

MadMike said:
I’m by no means an expert on education but no article I’ve ever read explicitly links the success of the Finnish school system with banning privatised schools.

The most quoted reasons for its success are:
1) Non-competition between schools (rankings)
2) Non-standardised testing
3) More playtime and no tests for kids.
4) Very little homework
5) Well paid, well respected, well educated teachers

And those changes happened in a 40 year period, not in a flash. You can always make great changes to the current system without leaping straight into seazing of private assets like it’s a natural reflex. It shows other underlying intents rather than fixing things.

Also bear in mind that Finnish society is very different from ours. Far less urbanised and far more homogeneous. Many inner city schools here are a mess because of how our society overall is structured. Fix that before forcing parents to send their kids there.

Inb4 some claim I blame the immigrants or poor people (the literal victims of the current state) for the failings of inner city schools.
Click to expand...

If you haven't read an article that links the equitable nature of the Finnish school system to its success... I can only assume you haven't read very much about it if I am honest. I am not saying there aren't other factors like the ones you've just mentioned. Although it does amuse me that you have just listed what you call "the most quoted reasons". Where do you get that stat from? I'd like to see the data on 'the most quoted reasons for the success of the Finnish school system'... unless you've just made that up?

I don't have a particularly strong view on the abolishment of private schools if I am honest. I do think something more drastic like that will need to be done though if we are serious about really wanting to close the attainment gap and create a more level playing field for children where ability and not wealth is the main driver of attainment. Just taxing private schools a bit more won't change the fact that many top professions go to an extremely disproportionate number of the privately educated.

Also, I suspect the school standards across the board in this country would likely improve if a lot of the very wealthy people in power had to send their kids to the same schools as everybody else.
 
ZupZup said:
If you haven't read an article that links the equitable nature of the Finnish school system to its success... I can only assume you haven't read very much about it if I am honest. I am not saying there aren't other factors like the ones you've just mentioned. Although it does amuse me that you have just listed what you call "the most quoted reasons". Where do you get that stat from? I'd like to see the data on 'the most quoted reasons for the success of the Finnish school system'... unless you've just made that up?
Click to expand...

It doesn't feel like a subject that merits scientific research for validation, to be honest. Feel free to do a search on google and see what comes up. When I did it, banning private schools didn't come up in any of top 10 articles, while the reasons listed above did.

I mean digging a little deeper, it's actually all bollocks. Finland doesn't even ban private schools.

https://thecornerstoneforteachers.com/12-myths-about-education-in-finland-debunked/

8) There are no private schools in Finland.
A Little of Both. Finland has common legislation for both private (state subsidized) and public (city or state owned) schools. Last year there were 85 private schools in Finland serving approximately 3% of the whole student population.
Click to expand...


ZupZup said:
Just taxing private schools a bit more won't change the fact that many top professions go to an extremely disproportionate number of the privately educated.
Click to expand...

Well I am truly shocked that kids from better off families, with better connections and better education end up getting better jobs. Shocked! I even read an article today on the Guardian about how even Oxbridge grads end up earning different money depending on their social class.

Research shows that Oxbridge graduates from more privileged backgrounds earn about £5,000 a year more than those that are less well off
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...sity-upward-mobility-working-class-background
Click to expand...

It's an aggregated list of life advantages. And I'm all for helping increase the social mobility of kids by using public money to level the field a bit through offering quality free education to reduce the most egregious injustices. But until the state school offering improves, I'm not for simply banning some of the best schools in the country until then. Raise the floor, don’t lower the ceiling.


ZupZup said:
Also, I suspect the school standards across the board in this country would likely improve if a lot of the very wealthy people in power had to send their kids to the same schools as everybody else.
Click to expand...

I suspect not. Average private school fees are £17k per year.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-isc-census-parents-term-costs-a8325001.html

A lot, but not obscene or out of reach for many middle class parents. It's not just the very rich who send their kids there. Those seriously wealthy people will, as always, be unaffected and just send their kids to private schools abroad, or international schools, or by moving to an un-affordable postcode near the best state schools, or use one of the dozen loopholes that any system has. And they'll still create Eton-style rich people "ghettos" one way or another.
 
Last edited:
I don't think this policy is going to survive contact with the electorate, but we will see I suppose.
 
sun_tzu said:
I dont think it will even survive contact with their own MP's
Click to expand...

To be honest I think it will, they'll grumble and complain on background to journos but refuse to actually do anything about it.
 
esmufc07 said:
So if you're a leave voter you have no reason to vote Labour, and if you're a remain voter you have no reason to vote Labour.

Great strategy.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. Labour is committed to a second referendum. That's as good as you're going to get short of lurching towards a policy of revoking Article 50. What difference does it make to the actual policy if Corbyn personally campaigns on the side of Remain or not? I fully understand why people would be frustrated with that position, myself included, but lets stop with the dramatics. The only realistic chance we have of reversing Brexit is through a Labour government.
 
BobbyManc said:
Nonsense. Labour is committed to a second referendum. That's as good as you're going to get short of lurching towards a policy of revoking Article 50. What difference does it make to the actual policy if Corbyn personally campaigns on the side of Remain or not? I fully understand why people would be frustrated with that position, myself included, but lets stop with the dramatics. The only realistic chance we have of reversing Brexit is through a Labour government.
Click to expand...

exactly.
 
sun_tzu said:
I dont think it will even survive contact with their own MP's
Click to expand...


...the substance of that 'complaint' makes it clear that the MPs issue is nothing to do with Brexit but Labour's domestic policies. It's the sort of language you'd expect from a Conservative voter. Labour opposes 'success, hard work, intelligence and wealth'. Ridiculous. Whichever MP wrote that has no business being in a party that is supposed to represent the interests of the working class.
 
esmufc07 said:
So if you're a leave voter you have no reason to vote Labour, and if you're a remain voter you have no reason to vote Labour.

Great strategy.
Click to expand...

I don't know how they expect to attract votes by not having a clear policy.
 
ZupZup said:
Also, I suspect the school standards across the board in this country would likely improve if a lot of the very wealthy people in power had to send their kids to the same schools as everybody else.
Click to expand...

If private schools were abolished there would be de facto private schools in areas with expensive housing that donated to the local schools to such a degree that it became a private school.

It would do nothing to help the overall quality of state schooling. Unless you mean the overall mean grade would increase because you'd integrate the good private school grades into the mediocre state grades?
 
sun_tzu said:
Dunno about a hundred...
But I could see a chunk doing it en masse
Click to expand...
I wish they would but they seem to like people thinking they might, whilst also being appalled at any suggestion they should be deselected. It's nonsense and them leaving the party on their own terms, in one dramatic moment, would be the cleanest way to move past the issue.

Then they can campaign on what they actually stand for and Labour campaigners can campaign for candidates who actually stand for the things they believe in.
 
esmufc07 said:
So if you're a leave voter you have no reason to vote Labour, and if you're a remain voter you have no reason to vote Labour.

Great strategy.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Farage is going to tell Leavers again and again that Labour are only pretending to listen to them until after the election, which is obviously true, and many Remainers will switch to the Liberals or Greens as parties that unequivocally back Remain. Another drop in the polls incoming.
 
BobbyManc said:
Nonsense. Labour is committed to a second referendum. That's as good as you're going to get short of lurching towards a policy of revoking Article 50. What difference does it make to the actual policy if Corbyn personally campaigns on the side of Remain or not? I fully understand why people would be frustrated with that position, myself included, but lets stop with the dramatics. The only realistic chance we have of reversing Brexit is through a Labour government.
Click to expand...
They don't want a second referendum anymore, because they know they can't win it.

It's Revoke and keep your fingers crossed it's like when your man Doctor Who takes out the main baddie and all their minions fall to earth motionless.
 
Last edited:
I say this as a remainer - remainers are idiots and deserve to lose this whole brexit game.
 
Wandered past one of The World Transformed events earlier. Looked quite cool but I was busy.

I passed by a bit later when it was pissing it down and it looked less fun, given it was under quite small tents and it being Brighton it was breezy.

There's a scoop for you all.
 
finneh said:
If private schools were abolished there would be de facto private schools in areas with expensive housing that donated to the local schools to such a degree that it became a private school.

It would do nothing to help the overall quality of state schooling. Unless you mean the overall mean grade would increase because you'd integrate the good private school grades into the mediocre state grades?
Click to expand...

If all schools are under the same state system... you could very easily change the rules so any donations went to a fund for all schools in a wider area and couldn’t be accepted by individual schools.

Also, there’s a big difference between a school just naturally being in an area with more expensive housing and parents having to pay thousands to send their children there. More affluent areas often neighbour poorer areas as well. I live in an area which is pretty working class yet it’s within 2 miles of probably the most affluent part of Greater Manchester.
 
ZupZup said:
If all schools are under the same state system... you could very easily change the rules so any donations went to a fund for all schools in a wider area and couldn’t be accepted by individual schools.

Also, there’s a big difference between a school just naturally being in an area with more expensive housing and parents having to pay thousands to send their children there. More affluent areas often neighbour poorer areas as well. I live in an area which is pretty working class yet it’s within 2 miles of probably the most affluent part of Greater Manchester.
Click to expand...

Again even if donations went to the local council who distributed evenly throughout the area... Schools in the South East would be disproportionately benefited compared with the North East.

It would be hugely open to abuse also as you'd no doubt end up with paid after school classes... Or parents getting together to pay private tutors to provide extra education to the privileged few.

Overall it's typical policy of bringing the standards of the people who're receiving the best services down to the level of the worst.

It's not about better standards, it's about forcing everyone to receive the same poor state standards. Whether it be health, roads, education, energy, rail etc
 
Shamwow said:
I say this as a remainer - remainers are idiots and deserve to lose this whole brexit game.
Click to expand...

Nah, let's not go that far. No side that contains the likes of Cummings, Gove, Johnson and Farage deserves to win anything.
 
The private school thing is a lot like the Tom Watson thing, in that the actual practical merits of the idea are less important than the timing and rather tin eared optics of it.... Why go hard in on something that sounds even somewhat like private asset seizures, at his particular point? Who is it winning around?

It’s not an unconscionable concept, but it’s tactically myopic...
 
Last edited:
sun_tzu said:
Dunno about a hundred...
But I could see a chunk doing it en masse
Click to expand...

The party too will be finished. Resigning the whip is not an option. Wait till he is no longer leader. Cotbyn is not as popular among labour members as he was two or three years ago. He won't be there forever.
However, that MP is just regurgitating Tory rubbish.
 
finneh said:
It's not about better standards, it's about forcing everyone to receive the same poor state standards. Whether it be health, roads, education, energy, rail etc
Click to expand...

See... I believe we should have excellent state school standards. It’s not about lowering anything. The idea that wanting to abolish private schools means someone wants everyone to have the same poorer standard of education is rubbish.

I am just not convinced that whilst we have private schools, the state schools will be given the funding and resources they need to significantly raise their level. Largely because I don’t believe those in power would have any vested interest in improving the quality of state schools.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.