Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Marching said:
:lol: Using a firm that has its workers on zero hours contracts! Comrade Corbyn and his shower of shite really are the comedy gift that just keeps on giving.
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This is the sort of bullshit that people on the left have to put up with. If the conservatives hold a conference with zero hour security workers no one gives a shit because they don't give a toss about zero hour workers. But Labour who actually want to improve the job security of those people have to use such a company because no alternative exists and they are hypocrites.

As Owen Jones puts it, on the left you are either young and naive, old and out-of-touch, poor and jealous, or rich and hypocritical.
 
Ubik said:
Telling people that they're being made fools of, don't see how things really are and that they're acting against their own interests.
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Yep. Most people are stupid but no one thinks they are stupid. Telling them they are doesn't tend to win them over.

It's like racism. No one thinks they are a racist even though lots of people hold racist views.
 
Untied said:
This is the sort of bullshit that people on the left have to put up with. If the conservatives hold a conference with zero hour security workers no one gives a shit because they don't give a toss about zero hour workers. But Labour who actually want to improve the job security of those people have to use such a company because no alternative exists and they are hypocrites.

As Owen Jones puts it, on the left you are either young and naive, old and out-of-touch, poor and jealous, or rich and hypocritical.
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Bit like Labour whining about ZHC's while Labour councils use them....and rightly so.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Pray tell who is going to lead this mythical party, and who will be in the cabinet?

Are there any experienced political heavy weights left in the Labour Party?

They've only been out of Government 6 years or so, and there's no one left who you can take seriously.
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Jarvis, Starmer or Cooper maybe?

At the moment I would settle for an effective opposition. We learned to our cost from the massive Blair majorities how damaging a de facto one party rule can be.
 
Corbyn is expressing concern that the election will be rigged. Meanwhile the Labour leader in Wales is expressing concern that Corbyn will purge party officials after his win. And the Shadow Chancellor and Party Secretary are entering into an open war over whether a "purge" is taking place in the party. Have we really devolved into this level of internecine warfare? The conduct of all involved is making me rabidly angry, and I despair at the long term electoral prospects of Corbyn. If the Labour Party is done, what takes its place?
 
Stanley Road said:
Surely you won't vote Tory again at the next election? After all they've done to your eu dream
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Life is full of ups and downs Stan and leaving the EU is a disappointment but as Cameron and then May said we will survive it and I will be voting again for them next time round. The mere suggestion of voting for Labour is as hilarious as it is stupid.
 
Marching said:
:lol: Using a firm that has its workers on zero hours contracts! Comrade Corbyn and his shower of shite really are the comedy gift that just keeps on giving.
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At this point I reckon Corbyn could sit quietly in a room and you'd find a reason to post a lauging smiley
 
Marching said:
Life is full of ups and downs Stan and leaving the EU is a disappointment but as Cameron and then May said we will survive it and I will be voting again for them next time round. The mere suggestion of voting for Labour is as hilarious as it is stupid.
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Well this is why the uk is like it is, people voting for the same old crap time and time again. I suppose you get what you deserve.
 
Stanley Road said:
Well this is why the uk is like it is, people voting for the same old crap time and time again. I suppose you get what you deserve.
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No one party gets everything right so I way up the limited options and go with who I think will do the best job overall and I've always struggled to believe Labour could run the country well enough to earn my vote....certainly with Corbyn taking Labour back to (IMO) the dark ages and even struggling to form any kind of opposition I could never see the country being in a better state than it is now.
 
Marching said:
No one party gets everything right so I way up the limited options and go with who I think will do the best job overall and I've always struggled to believe Labour could run the country well enough to earn my vote....certainly with Corbyn taking Labour back to (IMO) the dark ages and even struggling to form any kind of opposition I could never see the country being in a better state than it is now.
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Not the right weigh at all.
 
Marching said:
No one party gets everything right so I way up the limited options and go with who I think will do the best job overall and I've always struggled to believe Labour could run the country well enough to earn my vote....certainly with Corbyn taking Labour back to (IMO) the dark ages and even struggling to form any kind of opposition I could never see the country being in a better state than it is now.
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You'll also never find out
 
So we take a leap in the dark with a Labour Party led by Corbyn? :nervous:
 
The Labour party is in a mess right now. No question. The current leadership battle is extremely damaging but isn't really about JC vs OS. Before the coup, hardly anyone had heard about OS. The coup plotters never supported JC from the day he was elected. The real battle at the moment is about the grassroots membership that overwhelmingly support Corbyn vs those in the PLP and NEC that seem to resent democratic socialism. Odd really, seeing as Labour is all about democratic socialism.
 
Marching said:
So we take a leap in the dark with a Labour Party led by Corbyn? :nervous:
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Apart from the in fighting from mostly plebs, it's nice to have a change to the neoliberism that has infested Europe and ground it to a halt.

I also find it really strange to hear people talk about 'Whats best for the country' when they never really gave a feck abut that so long as their immediate families are ok. If you keep your job and you can pay the bills that's all people want.
 
DenisIrwin said:
The Labour party is in a mess right now. No question. The current leadership battle is extremely damaging but isn't really about JC vs OS. Before the coup, hardly anyone had heard about OS. The coup plotters never supported JC from the day he was elected. The real battle at the moment is about the grassroots membership that overwhelmingly support Corbyn vs those in the PLP and NEC that seem to resent democratic socialism. Odd really, seeing as Labour is all about democratic socialism.
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I'm convinced that they're not fussed about politics in this race or they'd have distanced themselves from Owen the first time he agreed with Jeremy, or at least after one of the 400 times since. They just don't want a leader that has the leverage with the membership over them like Corbyn does. He's a reminder of the party's biggest feck ups, simply because he didn't make them himself.
 
Stanley Road said:
Well this is why the uk is like it is, people voting for the same old crap time and time again. I suppose you get what you deserve.
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I don't think that is an entirely fair assessment. There has been a process of change under way for nearly a decade; this was first demonstrated by the increasing influence of the Lib Dems, and followed by the repeated successes of the SNP. Even the more traditional Labour constituencies in England are proving to be susceptible to UKIP, and such places have voted most tribally over the years.

The only professional and halfway decent alternative to the Tories, is a party whose ambitions lie in Edinburgh, not London. Were the SNP a federalist minded outfit for the UK as a whole, Labour would have been reduced to the status of a third party in 2010.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
I don't think that is an entirely fair assessment. There has been a process of change under way for nearly a decade; this was first demonstrated by the increasing influence of the Lib Dems, and followed by the repeated successes of the SNP. Even the more traditional Labour constituencies in England are proving to be susceptible to UKIP, and such places have voted most tribally over the years.

The only professional and halfway decent alternative to the Tories, is a party whose ambitions lie in Edinburgh, not London. Were the SNP a federalist minded outfit for the UK as a whole, Labour would have been reduced to the status of a third party in 2010.
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Even I'd have found it hard to vote for Labour over the last decade as there was little difference between them and tories. I'd have definitely have voted tory just to get the eu referendum. Now Labour have a leader that is a proper lefty and the tory lites behind him don't like it, why don't the feck off then?
 
Please give me an example of Jeremy Corbyn being spiteful and toxic.

The #traingate thing cast doubt on Jeremy Corbyn's portrayal. There is no doubt whatsoever that trains are very often full to bursting with many forced to stand or sit, even though they've paid full fare. There is also no doubt whatsoever that Branson and Green are filthy rich greedy buggers that choose to live outside the UK in order to reduce the amount of tax they pay. Branson is also heavily into making money out of the NHS. I can well understand a committed trade unionist and socialist like McDonnell being pissed off with their status as peers. Is it really right that we should be looking up to such filthy rich tax-avoiding greedy buggers?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
He is too incompetent to be called savvy. Scheming is more accurate.
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Probably. I think that'd fit the Labour party as a whole though. Plenty of people making their own power plays, but no one doing it competently.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
He is too incompetent to be called savvy. Scheming is more accurate.
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Well, if growing the party's membership to something like 630,000 in a few months is scheming then OK. That's 630,000 people, many of whom will be knocking on doors, delivering leaflets, manning phone banks and working hard to defeat the Tories in 2020.
 
DenisIrwin said:
Well, if growing the party's membership to something like 630,000 in a few months is scheming then OK. That's 630,000 people, many of whom will be knocking on doors, delivering leaflets, manning phone banks and working hard to defeat the Tories in 2020.
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Except the evidence shows that most new members are clicktivists and have not been adequately engaged in the on the ground work. That needs to change to make a difference.
 
DenisIrwin said:
Please give me an example of Jeremy Corbyn being spiteful and toxic.

The #traingate thing cast doubt on Jeremy Corbyn's portrayal. There is no doubt whatsoever that trains are very often full to bursting with many forced to stand or sit, even though they've paid full fare. There is also no doubt whatsoever that Branson and Green are filthy rich greedy buggers that choose to live outside the UK in order to reduce the amount of tax they pay. Branson is also heavily into making money out of the NHS. I can well understand a committed trade unionist and socialist like McDonnell being pissed off with their status as peers. Is it really right that we should be looking up to such filthy rich tax-avoiding greedy buggers?
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So Branson and Green are not going to be filthy rich under a Corbyn run country? Of course they are and furthermore they will probably simply move their riches even further out of the reach of the government than they are currently. I had a friend many years ago who was a hugely successful author and he paid up to 98p in the pound in taxes on some earnings under a Labour government...all this led to his good friend the author Dick Francis trying to persuade him for many years to join him as a tax exile which meant little or no tax income was collected by the government. Rich business men and women employ hundreds of thousands of people who all pay tax and as they currently pay all the taxes they are legally required to I don't see what else anyone can do. You obviously don't like the fact they are rich but so fecking what. It's got bugger all to do you with you...or me or Stan or anyone else.

The whole point of an opposition party is eventually to become the government and the country has moved so far away from the far left that Corbyn represents I can't see how he can hope to convince enough Tories to vote for him...and it is those Tories he needs and not the already converted that turn up at his rallies.

Blair/Kinnocks/Millibands Labour all achieved government and they are not left enough for your version of Labour or indeed Corbyn's so it seems the answer is to split the party....that or Corbyn to join the Socialist Party and leave the MP's he can't work with to get on with working to be the opposition that could achieve power.
 
Marching said:
So Branson and Green are not going to be filthy rich under a Corbyn run country? Of course they are and furthermore they will probably simply move their riches even further out of the reach of the government than they are currently. I had a friend many years ago who was a hugely successful author and he paid up to 98p in the pound in taxes on some earnings under a Labour government...all this led to his good friend the author Dick Francis trying to persuade him for many years to join him as a tax exile which meant little or no tax income was collected by the government. Rich business men and women employ hundreds of thousands of people who all pay tax and as they currently pay all the taxes they are legally required to I don't see what else anyone can do. You obviously don't like the fact they are rich but so fecking what. It's got bugger all to do you with you...or me or Stan or anyone else.

The whole point of an opposition party is eventually to become the government and the country has moved so far away from the far left that Corbyn represents I can't see how he can hope to convince enough Tories to vote for him...and it is those Tories he needs and not the already converted that turn up at his rallies.

Blair/Kinnocks/Millibands Labour all achieved government and they are not left enough for your version of Labour or indeed Corbyn's so it seems the answer is to split the party....that or Corbyn to join the Socialist Party and leave the MP's he can't work with to get on with working to be the opposition that could achieve power.
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My (limited) understanding is...

Branson runs Virgin trains. Under a Corbyn-led Labour government their licence to operate would lapse and the service would be brought under public ownersip/control. He also runs Virgin healthcare providing services under contract to the NHS (and pay no taxes due to offshore status). Branson would still be rich, but would be taking less money offshore. The public/government would win. There would a similar number of people employed.

Green... well, let's just see what unravels there. I hope he is forced to at least pay the pensions fund. Vile individual. Lessons need to be learned about the way he was able to mismanage things so badly to his own (and his Monaco-based wife's) advantage. The rules governing offshore tax status need to be looked at, imo. There is probably more chance of that happening under a Corbyn-led Labour government than either a Tory or "centre-left" one.

Corbyn has said the top tax rate would be 50p. Not exactly draconian, and certainly not 98p.

I agree that politics in this country has moved significantly to the right, in both major parties (and with the emergence of UKIP), as is evident in analysis of the Brexit vote. Not a good thing, imo.

The top 1% have done extremely well under the Tories. The rest of us, whether we be traditional Labour or Tory (or undecided or whatever) voters, have not. Corbyn's policies will appeal most to the most disadvantaged, but should appeal to everyone in the bottom 90-99% as well. The thought that traditional Tory voters couldn't possibly be won over by Corbyn's policies is rubbish. Socialism isn't a bad thing. Honestly.

By the way, Kinnock and Miliband lost. The Tories have a slender lead. It's certainly possible for Labour under Corbyn to come back at them strongly enough to defeat them over the course of the next 4 years - especially if the increased membership is anything to go by.
 
We're never going to agree on politics my friend. The 99% as you say haven't done extremely well but many have done well and IMO better than they would under a Corbyn government who IMO would end up costing us a fortune with all the nationalisation they talk about. I like Branson and think he brings far more to the country than it costs. Not that keen on Green although I love his mega yacht....I find it hard to believe he won't sort out the pension fund black hole as he said he would.

Politics is one of those subjects where people are set in their ways.....to be honest my way of life won't change particularly whoever is in power.
 
Marching said:
We're never going to agree on politics my friend. The 99% as you say haven't done extremely well but many have done well and IMO better than they would under a Corbyn government who IMO would end up costing us a fortune with all the nationalisation they talk about. I like Branson and think he brings far more to the country than it costs. Not that keen on Green although I love his mega yacht....I find it hard to believe he won't sort out the pension fund black hole as he said he would.

Politics is one of those subjects where people are set in their ways.....to be honest my way of life won't change particularly whoever is in power.
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The top 1% have though...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-twice-as-rich-as-ten-years-ago-10205660.html
 
DenisIrwin said:
The top 1% have though...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-twice-as-rich-as-ten-years-ago-10205660.html
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And in a world where capital is not tied to nation states, how would a Corbyn government address the issue of inequality without exposing the UK economy to capital flight?

Bearing in mind Blanchflower's critique of the economic ideas Corbyn and McDonnell have proposed (the banning of dividend payments for example), how can this government work within a capitalist economy to meet their aims?
 
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