Probably. I think it's quite a difficult one because classes can often be quite blurred now, but he's certainly more in-tune than Miliband, who was a bit of a lefty but was generally perceived as not being particularly strong or 'normal' in a sense, even if he was a decent guy. He's undoubtedly more in touch than Brown and Blair, who you'd generally say presided over an era which took Labour away from its working class roots.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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Probably. I think it's quite a difficult one because classes can often be quite blurred now, but he's certainly more in-tune than Miliband, who was a bit of a lefty but was generally perceived as not being particularly strong or 'normal' in a sense, even if he was a decent guy. He's undoubtedly more in touch than Brown and Blair, who you'd generally say presided over an era which took Labour away from its working class roots.
I honestly have no idea what that means, these days.
For all the attacks on Corbyn, it's mostly been personal snipes at side issues; I guess he hasn't faced something like this yet:
From personal experience (living in a working class area of one of the poorest parts of the country), yes. I don't know about anywhere else though.
Good question, a very deep question for the party. To illustrate the problem Labour has, ask yourself a simple question - why the feck do working class people vote Tory? Seriously, it is hard to think of a time post-45 when having a Tory Government would have made working class people better off, or indeed anything but much worse off in numerous ways. And yet they do vote Tory. In great numbers.
The history of the party however sheds some light on it. When Labour finally arrived in 1945 after a few false starts, they were a coalition of groups, but broadly speaking it was a mix of socially conservative working class groups who saw Labour as a vehicle to finally gain equality, and progressive middle class groups who were stimulated intellectually by the whole movement. These two groups have made up the heart of the party since then.
Since the last of the Atlee crew slowly disappeared from late 60s onwards, however, the trendsetters in the party have been increasingly from the middle class intellectual set, mainly social liberals, and much more liberal than the 40s lot (particularly post Jenkins). This wasn’t some overnight thing, but has been a definite trend. Certainly the early 80s vision of the far left would have been bizarre to Clement Atlee, who was a full on patriot - pro-monarchy, pro-military, pro-nuclear weapons. The consequence is that the proportion of working class people voting for the party has been on a downward trend since the early 70s.
Even though both parts of the party shared aims they never fully shared their values. The reality is that social liberals just don’t get a lot of social conservatism. Run through the Guardian website on that issue with not singing the national anthem, and the thing that no-one truly understands is why some people like singing the national anthem, why they like the Queen and why they consider it important. As George Orwell wrote "It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
And yet social conservatism is prevalent amongst the working classes. Social conservatives are twice as likely to be working class than affluent. This is why many working class people vote Tory - because the Tories share their socially conservative values. Working class social conservatives may be better off under Labour, but they connect with the Tories in many other ways. Hence its never been a simple decision.
Our vote amongst social conservatives has fallen by almost a third in 10 years, and all the studies show that its the classic social conservative fears that are at the heart of it. In 2015 the main reasons that social conservatives gave for voting as they did was immigration, toughness on welfare, standing up for ourselves abroad, a desire to leave Europe and financial responsibility. Peace and loveism didn't feature.
My worry with Corbyn then is simple. Working class social conservatives in places like the seaside towns, Essex, the Midlands, and so on get put off New Labour because they see the party as a bunch of North London intellectual progressives. New Labour ends and we give them Ed Miliband - a North London intellectual progressive. Then we give them Jeremy Corbyn - a North London intellectual progressive. Except this time we’ve gone the whole nut roast; the full on bean eating, bike riding, sandal wearing, pacifist ideal. The most liberal of all the liberals we could find.
The initial evidence isn't great. Both today's ComRes and this weeks YouGov poll both suggest positive support for Corbyn is lower amongst the working class groupings than the middle class and affluent groupings. Either way, this will probably tell us conclusively whether these concerns about the loss of the working class vote really is about contrasting values, or whether its more simply about clarity and authenticity. I'd probably rather find a safer way of finding out though.
Good to see someone has seen the light and isn't willing to be dragged back into the Dark Ages.
Very interesting post, thanks. I'm completely guilty of the bolded part and get frustrated by my family when they complain about things like the EU and immigration.
No, not at all.
As has been said, he appeals to the kind of "working class people" who attend Union meetings, work groups, think tanks, pressure groups etc.
IE, not working class people at all.
When was the last time any of you took time off to attend a trade union conference? Or sit in a socialist think tank about workers rights or a pressure group trying to get secondary schools to offer an all vegan only diet?
Anyone?
When has anyone you personally or by association know of anyone else that has does that?
What about protest marches? Anyone every been on a stop the war or anti hunting protest march? What about one to let in more migrants? Or against welfare cuts?
What group of people have time to do any of that? Not me and you for a start, too busy working- "can I have next Tuesday off boss?" "Sure Trev, no problem, it's not a family issue is it? I'll see if I can spin it so it comes off as compassionate exception rather than out of your holiday bank" "No nothing like that boss, I want to attend a protest march about the under representation of women in the the construction industry viz a viz why a 51/49% split in the favour of men is simply unexceptable in this day and age"
He's throwing a tantrum because one of his preferred candidates didn't win. It's hardly seeing the light, is it? In the old thread he was arguing that people should support the more centrist candidates whatever the outcome -- where's his support for Corbyn? Non-existent. Very petulant sort of stuff. Don't get exactly what you want, so quit.
Maybe you can join the Lib Dems. They seem to want to camp in the deserted centre ground.
In my local party, and I suspect many others, working class people make up the majority of activists. Activists being the people who organise and attend meetings, go door-to-door to campaign and generally make the party work at a local level.
Seemed quite calm for a supposed tantrum and I'm not surprised in the slightest he can't support or agree with the policies of Corbyn....hell, wasn't it only 14 of his own MP's who supported him and the lurch to being unelectable?
IIRC opposition to the Iraq war was more widespread in the working class as opposed to the middle class.
Which policies exactly?
@bishblaize Very interesting post. Thanks
I did think after I posted there might be some confusion about which of his weird ideas will actually make it to being a policy. I maybe should not have used the word policy...lets just call them weird out of date ideas that even his own cabinet members are distancing themselves from NATO, Tident, armed forces, renationalising railways, etc etc
Trident and renationalisation of railways are the only two that are actual policies.
Seems the confusion is catching as I was reading just now that he's backing down on scrapping Trident now...farcical position and one that could be seen coming a mile off!
Where did your read that ?
Hilary Benn gave an interview coming out in favour of Trident.
Not sure. Article said Burnham/Watson would resign if Corbyn put it forward. It really is a barmy idea to be fair.
Well, hey, at least Corbyn hasn't fecked any pigs.
There's a good chance he does flip-flop on Trident, wouldn't surprise me tbh. Although it would be a definite flip-flop.
And this is where I lose the tiny bit of respect I have for him. Great that people have firmly held principles...don't believe in God or the Monarchy? Then don't sing the national anthem but then to change your mind and sing it or kneel before the Queen and you've sold out. Despise nuclear weapons and want them off our land? Fine. Change your mind and accept them and update them and you've sold out. Give it a year and he won't be Jeremy Corbyn.
Well, he has to make concessions otherwise he won't be able to keep control. The number of concessions he makes will determine how long I support him. Trident is a big one, but not the only one.
But surely people that voted him in will then have been conned. They voted for him because of his views not for him to change to fit in. This was always going to happen though because he is SO far in the past he just doesn't fit into the real world.
Great post @bishblaize
Top stuff. Bang on in the Attlee parts as well, who was also derided for not being socialist enough by the left of the party.
Attlee was also supposed to bring in the Gestapo according to Churchill...and if you try to always portray the labour right-wing as the good guys, it would be fair to point out that Attlee's greatest achievement, the NHS, was by an unapologetic tough left-winger, Bevan. Who would be pretty much where Corbyn is today, including on foreign policy.
Without the NHS, I'm not sure Attlee would be remembered half as fondly domestically (the reason I was interested in him was because he was PM when India became independent)
I didn't agree with it and argued against it when it was discussed, but that's about it.
Other than that, just like the huge majority of the UK working public, we just got on with life.
Thats great, good for them
.All I can say is this, in the past I've worked on the shop floor chicken processing plant, a factory that made plastic bags, drove a van for an independent parcel carrier, worked in a pet food factory, worked for a short while in a factory that did nothing but dry vegetables 24/7 (yes, that's as tedious and depressing as it sounds) and I've never found anyone that does any of the things I mentioned.
Anecdotal yes, it doesn't prove a point I agree , it's not representative as the country as a whole certainly, however in my experience the "working class" people who you would think would be lumping on wholesale to fighting for social justice, increased wages, supporting unions etc really don't give much of a feck to that extent.
The chicken factory had a union, we genuinely only heard about them or talked about them when the pay review came around, and even then only when we got the company letter with our wage slips.
Working class people tend have different priorities, I know I did, my day to day and long term concerns were keeping a roof over our heads, food on the table, and clothes on our back. Things such wars on the other side of the world, minorities and women's rights in the work place, hunting, refugees etc etc came a long way down the list, I mean a long down, behind such worries as how I was going to afford to put a new exhaust on the car (a whole £100! Where the feck was a going to find that kind of money? It was nearly a weeks pay!) and the like.
Things haven't changed that much in 20 years, the people that have the time to worry and the opportunity and desire to be activists or protest are not the kind of working class people I know.
But as I've said, it's anecdotal and an opinion only.
@bishblaize, Disraeli called the working-class Tories "angels in marble" - potential things of beauty that had to be revealed. The same conundrum about why so many working-class people vote Tory was recognised in his time - this cartoon (from 1866) shows Gladstone's reforms being held back by Disraeli, helped by a random working man.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cadent-Oxford-days-gifted-Bullingdon-boy.html
so the right wing media and mail in-particular only sensationalise stories about corbyn??????????????????????
so the right wing media and mail in-particular only sensationalise stories about corbyn??????????????????????
I am a political pragmatist. Logically I see no other way to be. I do not believe Corbyn to be of the capability to run a G7 nation. I certainly do not trust him on foreign policy and I don't trust him on domestic economic policy. Not that I necessarily don't agree with some of his ideas on that count but I am highly sceptical of their plausibility.
I prefer Cameron to Corbyn unfortunately.
I'm in a similar position
I have always voted labour but I don't believe in Corbyn, I disagree with many of his positions (nuclear, renationalising rail ways, peoples QE for example) and I dont see why I should continue to donate and support a party that I believe no longer represents my views.
Its hardly having a tantrum... it is as you say simply being pragmatic.
What's the point in Trident?
It's bizarre to me that the same people who dismiss 250,000 people voting for Corbyn as being unrepresentative are quick to cite the 100 or so MPs disagreeing with him as proof of his unelectability.
Also i reckon Cameron fecking a pig is probably more embarrassing than anything Corbyn did in the 80s.
Edit - note that many major news outlets haven't mentioned it. If it was Corbyn it'd be everywhere
Also i reckon Cameron fecking a pig is probably more embarrassing than anything Corbyn did in the 80s.
Edit - note that many major news outlets haven't mentioned it. If it was Corbyn it'd be everywhere
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I watched Countdown To Zero last night, a docu about nuclear weapons. It really reinforced for me how surprising it is that the mainstream is so firmly rooted in renewing Trident. I can understand the arguments for renewing but they are not so overwhelming that there shouldnt be a more balanced debate about it. Personally I find the idea of scrapping Trident to be one of Corbyn's most compelling ideas and I hope it triggers a serious debate, and doesnt just get shouted down by the rest of the Labour party.
I really don't see any scenarios in which it has any real benefit for us.
It won't be that way for long. It has exploded on twitter.