Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

"We are his media". I like that. Forget about Opinion polls,spin doctors,nutty professors, think tanks. Cut through all that and engage with what really matters. The people.
 
Ady87 said:
Got to get in to politics somehow. Unless you find it funny that I'm suggesting Liverpool will busy, in which case I'm not sure what is funny, it will be packed. I think knowing of around 15 going from outside of Liverpool is a fair old indicator as well.
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@Marching is a blue blooded tory.

Take no notice.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
:lol:

Owen Jones getting the treatment for doubting the cringey #WeAreHisMedia #!

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He's done a blog on it - "Questions all Jeremy Corbyn supporters need to answer" https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/que...orters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.tlrzkv8ba

The conclusion:
Labour faces an existential crisis. There will be those who prefer me to just to say: all the problems that exist are the fault of the mainstream media and the Parliamentary Labour Party, and to be whipped up with the passions generated by mass rallies across the country. But these are the facts as I see them, and the questions that have to be answered. There are some who seem to believe seeking power is somehow ‘Blairite’. It is Blairite to seek power to introduce Blairite policies. It is socialist to seek power to introduce socialist policies. As things stand, all the evidence suggests that Labour — and the left as a whole — is on the cusp of a total disaster. Many of you won’t thank me now. But what will you say when you see the exit poll at the next general election and Labour is set to be wiped out as a political force? What will you say when — whenever you mention anything vaguely left-wing, you’re mocked for the rest of your life, a throwback to the discredited Labour era of the 2010s? Will you just comfort yourself by blaming it on the mainstream media and the PLP? Will that get you through a lifetime of Tory rule? My questions may strike you as unhelpful or uncomfortable. I’m beyond caring. Call me a Blairite, Tory, Establishment stooge, careerist, sellout, whatever makes you feel better. The situation is extremely grave and unless satisfactory answers are offered, we are nothing but the accomplices of the very people we oppose.
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It'll go down well.
 
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Ady87 said:
Got to get in to politics somehow. Unless you find it funny that I'm suggesting Liverpool will be busy, in which case I'm not sure what is funny, it will be packed. I think knowing of around 15 going from outside of Liverpool is a fair old indicator as well.
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Sorry pal. Comrade Corbyn and Momentum do manage to draw crowds...quite a few in Leeds the other day....just the 'rammed' that made me chortle. Enjoy your visit.
 
That Owen Jones stuff has me wavering to be honest. I'm hoping that Smith can convince me because it'd be so much less stressful that way.
 
Shamwow said:
That Owen Jones stuff has me wavering to be honest. I'm hoping that Smith can convince me because it'd be so much less stressful that way.
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I've actually warmed to Smith a bit over the past week or so; his policies seem alright and far better than what the Tories are offering, and he's okay as a speaker. What puts me off him completely is the manner in which the whole thing's been conducted. Tories will rip him apart if he gets in, label him as a backstabber etc, and they'd have a point.
 
Cheesy said:
I've actually warmed to Smith a bit over the past week or so; his policies seem alright and far better than what the Tories are offering, and he's okay as a speaker. What puts me off him completely is the manner in which the whole thing's been conducted. Tories will rip him apart if he gets in, label him as a backstabber etc, and they'd have a point.
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It's not so much the Tories ripping him apart that I'm worried about.

But I think it might be worth taking the chance on. In one year the party will have moved a long way to the left and I would consider that a victory.

My doubts are with whether Smith can make it stick but those doubts are getting more and more outweighed recently.
 
So Owen Jones finally on message for his paymasters. Maybe it's because his voice is not as unique anymore .
 
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Drifter said:
So Owen Jones finally on message for his paymasters. Maybe it's because his voice is not as unique anymore .
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Come off it mate. If anything his problem is that he's too emotionally attached to the situation. You can tell he's distraught
 
Ubik said:
He's done a blog on it - "Questions all Jeremy Corbyn supporters need to answer" https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/que...orters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.tlrzkv8ba
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Shamwow said:
That Owen Jones stuff has me wavering to be honest. I'm hoping that Smith can convince me because it'd be so much less stressful that way.
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The problem is I don't think Smith has better answers to any of those questions. I think Corbyn and his team should think hard about some of them, but I'll give my answers to a few:

How can the disastrous polling be turned around?
Labour is in the middle of a messy self-inflicted attempted coup. May is experiencing a new leader bounce. This Conservative government, which is incredibly divided and possesses a slender majority now has to negotiate the most challenging political decision of the last 50 years. The polling at the moment is alarming. But, you know, Remain was polling 60-40 this time last year.

Where is the clear vision?

When I asked Jeremy Corbyn what Labour’s vision under his leadership is, here was his response:

“An economy that doesn’t cut public expenditure as a principle, that instead is prepared to invest and participate in the widest economy in order to give opportunities and decency for everyone. A welfare system that doesn’t punish those with disabilities but instead supports people with disabilities. A health service that is there for all, for all time, without any charges and without any privatisation within that NHS. And a foreign policy that’s based on human rights, the promotion of democracy around the world.”

I’m not at all convinced that this is a vision which will resonate with the majority of people. Compare and contrast to the Tories’ messaging.
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What was the Conservative's clear vision? Security and stability through the utter turmoil of an EU referendum? What is their clear vision now? Brexit means Brexit.

I think Labour really needs to hammer home three key points: That they are the party of fairness, strong public services (in particular the NHS), and a post-neoliberal economy (I think they really need to change gear from trying to convince people that you can trust them to run the economy as it is, to a party that challenges the current economic status quo).

How are the policies significantly different from the last general election?
Not sure this matters at this stage. They've picked the best of Miliband's policies. Abandoned the shit (immigration mug, tomb stone). I mean Cameron spent years promising to match Labour's spending in opposition and then managed to pivot in 1-2 years to preaching austerity which took him into coalition.

What’s the media strategy?
Really shit

How would we deal with people’s concerns about immigration?
Owen's response to this is bizarre. He is well aware that opposition to immigration is generally higher in areas with below average immigration rates. If someone can explain to me how a migrant impact fund helps with this I'd love to know. Or should Labour just promise to throw money at areas that express the most concern about immigration?



Finally, I think Mason's analysis makes some important points Owen's doesn't - particularly that Labour needs to own its shifting identity (from the party of industrial workers to the party of the young, metropolitan salariat — from a party of the past to a party of the future.) I also agree with Mason that the continual targetting of Corbyn is not simply the result of his own mediocrity: there is a fear of the possibility of a genuinely left-wing leader becoming PM, however unlikely that is. If he was so shit that his failure was inevitable there wouldn't be the repeated and continual attacks from the media and some of his own MPs.
 
Untied said:
The problem is I don't think Smith has better answers to any of those questions. I think Corbyn and his team should think hard about some of them, but I'll give my answers to a few:

How can the disastrous polling be turned around?
Labour is in the middle of a messy self-inflicted attempted coup. May is experiencing a new leader bounce. This Conservative government, which is incredibly divided and possesses a slender majority now has to negotiate the most challenging political decision of the last 50 years. The polling at the moment is alarming. But, you know, Remain was polling 60-40 this time last year.

Where is the clear vision?



What was the Conservative's clear vision? Security and stability through the utter turmoil of an EU referendum? What is their clear vision now? Brexit means Brexit.

I think Labour really needs to hammer home three key points: That they are the party of fairness, strong public services (in particular the NHS), and a post-neoliberal economy (I think they really need to change gear from trying to convince people that you can trust them to run the economy as it is, to a party that challenges the current economic status quo).

How are the policies significantly different from the last general election?
Not sure this matters at this stage. They've picked the best of Miliband's policies. Abandoned the shit (immigration mug, tomb stone). I mean Cameron spent years promising to match Labour's spending in opposition and then managed to pivot in 1-2 years to preaching austerity which took him into coalition.

What’s the media strategy?
Really shit

How would we deal with people’s concerns about immigration?
Owen's response to this is bizarre. He is well aware that opposition to immigration is generally higher in areas with below average immigration rates. If someone can explain to me how a migrant impact fund helps with this I'd love to know. Or should Labour just promise to throw money at areas that express the most concern about immigration?



Finally, I think Mason's analysis makes some important points Owen's doesn't - particularly that Labour needs to own its shifting identity (from the party of industrial workers to the party of the young, metropolitan salariat — from a party of the past to a party of the future.) I also agree with Mason that the continual targetting of Corbyn is not simply the result of his own mediocrity: there is a fear of the possibility of a genuinely left-wing leader becoming PM, however unlikely that is. If he was so shit that his failure was inevitable there wouldn't be the repeated and continual attacks from the media and some of his own MPs.
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Nice response to it, I'd certainly agree on the policy front, on the proviso that they would actually have stuff ready if an election comes within the year (and this is where my doubts come to the fore, given McDonnell's economic advisory group doesn't sound very prolific, and several have left).

On immigration - it's true that in areas where relatively high levels of immigration are long established, opposition is lower. However, one of the more interesting results from the EU referendum was that, when you looked at the rate of change rather than the overall level, opposition to it was clearer. There's a graph somewhere...here we are:

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http://www.economist.com/news/brita...main-or-did-they-britains-immigration-paradox
 
Ubik said:
On immigration - it's true that in areas where relatively high levels of immigration are long established, opposition is lower. However, one of the more interesting results from the EU referendum was that, when you looked at the rate of change rather than the overall level, opposition to it was clearer. There's a graph somewhere...here we are:

20160716_woc890.png
http://www.economist.com/news/brita...main-or-did-they-britains-immigration-paradox
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OK that's interesting. So if the policy is geared around arrivals (which would make sense) it could genuinely help. And of course it might help with the general attitude to immigration if the public know such a fund exists.

The media strategy is my biggest concern, assuming Corbyn is going to win. The campaign has suggested he is completely caught up in this bubble of social media engagement and the 1000s of new members he has inspired (who don't actually do anything for the party). Whilst I don't share your hatred of Milne he clearly should be replaced for incompetence given the evidence of the last 6 months. Labour is never on the front foot in the press under Corbyn. Corbyn's PMQs appearances continue to be weak. This was especially galling with the first appearance against May as that essentially gave him a reset and a chance to reassess his tactics. But nope. The Thatcher tribute act destroyed him. I'm really glad someone like Owen Jones is pointing out how stupid #wearehismedia is. Echo chamber twativism is not the solution.

Finally Mason's article also offers some sensible solutions for uniting the PLP after a Corbyn victory. Hopefully they are heeded.
 
Owen Jones being the story rather than writing it. Everything that's wrong with journalism currently.
 
I love that the Owen Jones article mentions 'Smith' once and it isn't in reference to Owen. :lol:

Not even "damning" articles can justify that dullard as being the answer to anything.
 
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Mciahel Goodman said:
Owen Jones being the story rather than writing it. Everything that's wrong with journalism currently.
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Hasn't helped that other journalists have bizarrely called him brave for writing the article





Feck you would thought they were talking about George Orwell. And not what is essentially a long winded @Ubik post(that's meant as a complement )
 
Sweet Square said:
Hasn't helped that other journalists have bizarrely called him brave for writing the article





Feck you would thought they were talking about George Orwell. And not what is essentially a long winded @Ubik post(that's meant as a complement )
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It's because he's seen as pro-Corbyn, despite the fact that he works for one of the most anti Corbyn rags around. Yes folks, the Graun is indeed a piece of neoliberal shite these days.

There's nothing brave about his article, it's just an article. Not even a particularly good one. The fact that somehow he's become relevant is exactly the problem.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
It's because he's seen as pro-Corbyn, despite the fact that he works for one of the most anti Corbyn rags around. Yes folks, the Graun is indeed a piece of neoliberal shite these days.

There's nothing brave about his article, it's just an article. Not even a particularly good one. The fact that somehow he's become relevant is exactly the problem.
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I do think Jones is fairly perceptive and correct on the fact that a lot of Corbyn supporters seem to be getting wrapped up in their own base on social media, forgetting that to actually have a chance of winning anything, they need to appeal to precisely the sort of demographic who have nothing to do with social media.

I don't think this is anything that's exclusive to Corbyn, though. Up in Scotland, social media was dominated by Yes voters during the referendum, but it's still older people who tip the balance to Scotland just supporting a No vote.

Likewise, it's something that's already existed within Labour, and will continue to do so. I'd suspect Miliband had many more supporters online than Cameron in 2015 - I'd also suspect that plenty of them will now be supporting Smith. Should be come to power, I expect Smith's Labour will face a similar problem to Corbyn's - appealing mostly to younger, online voters who use social media (except the Corbyn or nothing ones), but struggling to gain a wider appeal among a Tory party which largely dominate the media at the moment. If Jones or others expect this social media problem to be in any way rectified by a new leader's appointment, I think they'll be very, very surprised.

The calling it "brave" stuff is also a bit silly and ridiculously exaggerated though; the exact sort of exaggeration Smith's supporters would laugh at Corbyn fans for whenever they talk about being under siege by the media or the rest of the party.
 
Cheesy said:
I do think Jones is fairly perceptive and correct on the fact that a lot of Corbyn supporters seem to be getting wrapped up in their own base on social media, forgetting that to actually have a chance of winning anything, they need to appeal to precisely the sort of demographic who have nothing to do with social media.

I don't think this is anything that's exclusive to Corbyn, though. Up in Scotland, social media was dominated by Yes voters during the referendum, but it's still older people who tip the balance to Scotland just supporting a No vote.

Likewise, it's something that's already existed within Labour, and will continue to do so. I'd suspect Miliband had many more supporters online than Cameron in 2015 - I'd also suspect that plenty of them will now be supporting Smith. Should be come to power, I expect Smith's Labour will face a similar problem to Corbyn's - appealing mostly to younger, online voters who use social media (except the Corbyn or nothing ones), but struggling to gain a wider appeal among a Tory party which largely dominate the media at the moment. If Jones or others expect this social media problem to be in any way rectified by a new leader's appointment, I think they'll be very, very surprised.

The calling it "brave" stuff is also a bit silly and ridiculously exaggerated though; the exact sort of exaggeration Smith's supporters would laugh at Corbyn fans for whenever they talk about being under siege by the media or the rest of the party.
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Don't get me wrong -- at this stage, I've almost started to not care about Corbyn. I just dislike this stuff based on principal.

Labour aren't going to win the next election. It doesn't matter who leads the party in that sense. This election is more about sorting out a three decade old ideological split within the party. More important than a GE in many respects, because this will decide the nature of the opposing argument for the next few generations.

As for the Guardian... I hate to say it, but I've been calling that paper crap for a very long time. It's the veneer or radicalism (and/or leftism), but no substance. When they get a chance they go running to the right as quick as any paper in the land. The only reason they're even considered somewhat lefist on the spectrum is because they are in terms of LGBT stuff, feminism, etc. But, and I add a disclaimer here*, LGBT/women rights are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Nevertheless, it allows the Graun to appear as a liberal voice amidst a sea of conservatism. It's bullshit, though, because the Guardian hasn't been liberal in a long time. Not on the things that actually matter, at least.

*Hugely significant for those people, obviously, and good luck to them. However, rather insignificant when contrasted against economic systems and modes of governance -- things which the apparatus of state has traditionally sought to regulate.
 
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