Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Excuse me if this is a silly question, and I realise it's a bit OT, but...

I've been thinking about the fact that union membership has declined so far over the past couple of decades or so. Also, many of the people in low paying jobs are now immigrants from the EU. The question is, do they have a vote here?

Labour evolved from people at the lower end of the economic spectrum wanting a better deal. If that group is now largely made up of disenfranchised people it might explain a move to the right, both within the Labour party and more generally.
 
A row broke out today in the local party of one of Labour’s best-known MPs after it formally backed Owen Smith for leader over Jeremy Corbyn.

Grassroots members in Chuka Umunna’s Streatham seat claimed they were “locked out” of the vote to decide the nomination. The decision was instead taken by the party’s general committee, with Mr Smith winning the support of 44 delegates compared with 14 for Mr Corbyn.

Some accused local leaders, including Mr Umunna, of blocking them out of fear of a Corbyn surge.

Unison delegate to the party Dan Jeffries said: “The way they have done it is totally unfair. “Other constituency parties, including in Lambeth, have allowed members to vote.”

In neighbouring Vauxhall sources confirmed members were allowed to vote in the nomination ballot.

Streatham member Linda Heiden, 65, who joined Labour last July to back Mr Corbyn, said: “This is meant to be a party representing ordinary people, representing the 99 per cent. To not allow us to vote was cynical.”

A member who did not wish to be named, said: “It’s a shameful stitch-up as far as I’m concerned. We were locked out.” Another claimed it could heighten the chance of a bid to deselect Mr Umunna, 37.

Labour’s ruling National Executive Committee gave each local party the option of nominating a candidate through a members’ vote or one by the party’s general committee.

Mr Umunna was unavailable for comment. But a party source said the decision was taken on practical grounds as arranging a short-notice members’ vote for a party with such a large membership would have been too difficult.

Mr Smith was campaigning in England today. A spokesman for Mr Corbyn’s camp, due to hold a rally in York tonight, said: “Our campaign seeks to extend democracy in the party and use the talents and ideas of all members.” The election result is set to be announced in September.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...m-labour-party-backs-owen-smith-a3307496.html
 
Smores said:
Just came on to post this as it pretty much sums up where im at (apart from im not sure ill vote Corbyn).

The party is changing and those who perhaps are losing influence because of this need to concede a little. The modernisers within the party need to step up and bring everyone together.

Fair summary of Corbyn as well. He has been unfairly attacked by the media at times and the PLP have been ridiculous but he's learning on the job which isnt ideal as he makes naive mistakes.

Obviously It'd be great if there was a candidate to pull everyone together but i dont think Labour is ready yet.
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Completely agree with you
 
Even the ones there only want the wheel off the ice cream van.
 
#wearehismedia is an excellent example of the madness of Corbynism.
 
Ubik said:
#wearehismedia is an excellent example of the madness of Corbynism.
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I'm sure that continuing to label his supporters as mad or as being fringe lunatics is going to win them over.
 
Cheesy said:
I'm sure that continuing to label his supporters as mad or as being fringe lunatics is going to win them over.
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I think we're long past the stage where I can persuade anyone on here.

And ease off the holier-than-thou bollocks as well, I've been told my position is Tory-lite for the past year.
 
Ubik said:
I think we're long past the stage where I can persuade anyone on here.

And ease off the holier-than-thou bollocks as well, I've been told my position is Tory-lite for the past year.
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That's equally unhelpful admittedly, but I don't think it can be denied that a lot of the Labour left over time have probably grown alienated due to being treated as a sort of lunatic, maddened outside fringe group who just need to be told what's best for them in regards to the parties major decisions. Some of them will no doubt be talking nonsense/saying things that are incorrect, but then that's something that could be applied to every wing of every political party. I'll happily admit that the SNP has some very, very rabid supporters, for example, even though I vote for them.
 
Ubik said:
I think we're long past the stage where I can persuade anyone on here.

And ease off the holier-than-thou bollocks as well, I've been told my position is Tory-lite for the past year.
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Ah chill man! Have a Corbynetto.
 
Cheesy said:
That's equally unhelpful admittedly, but I don't think it can be denied that a lot of the Labour left over time have probably grown alienated due to being treated as a sort of lunatic, maddened outside fringe group who just need to be told what's best for them in regards to the parties major decisions. Some of them will no doubt be talking nonsense/saying things that are incorrect, but then that's something that could be applied to every wing of every political party. I'll happily admit that the SNP has some very, very rabid supporters, for example, even though I vote for them.
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Would you be as happy if they were in opposition and losing ground, had a historically unpopular leader with no support among MSPs, and said supporters were happy with how things were going?

And I maintain, organising a twitterstorm to proudly insist that people on twitter are "his media" is a madness that is only likely to have any resonance within the kind of echo chamber that @Pogue Mahone spoke about recently. It's doubly worrying because Corbyn himself probably believes it and will continue to make little effort with the actual media that dominates the news cycle. Even Owen Jones was trying to gently tell them to get a clue



Neither side is going to just shake hands and agree to disagree anymore, whoever loses is either going to leave or come very close to it. Unfortunately for me, that looks near-certain to being my side at this juncture. Many will no doubt say good riddance, but there we are.
 
Ubik said:
Would you be as happy if they were in opposition and losing ground, had a historically unpopular leader with no support among MSPs, and said supporters were happy with how things were going?

And I maintain, organising a twitterstorm to proudly insist that people on twitter are "his media" is a madness that is only likely to have any resonance within the kind of echo chamber that @Pogue Mahone spoke about recently. It's doubly worrying because Corbyn himself probably believes it and will continue to make little effort with the actual media that dominates the news cycle. Even Owen Jones was trying to gently tell them to get a clue



Neither side is going to just shake hands and agree to disagree anymore, whoever loses is either going to leave or come very close to it. Unfortunately for me, that looks near-certain to being my side at this juncture. Many will no doubt say good riddance, but there we are.
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No, but then I'd also be extremely pissed off when that same leader has been sabotaged by a considerable number of people within the party from the very moment he stepped into an office, with a determination from those against him to undermine him at every possible opportunity.

And speaking in an echo chamber is nothing new in social media, either. It's been common for a long time, and is pretty much encouraged by every party who will want their supporters to be as positive and convincing as is possible. I very much doubt in the lead-up to the 2015 election Labour were hoping for their supporters to express anything other than overwhelming support for the party - hell, I remember several hashtags and trends that were anti-Tory that I suspect were dominated by Labour supporters, considering they were the biggest opposition party.
 
Cheesy said:
That's equally unhelpful admittedly, but I don't think it can be denied that a lot of the Labour left over time have probably grown alienated due to being treated as a sort of lunatic, maddened outside fringe group who just need to be told what's best for them in regards to the parties major decisions.
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Calling someone to the left of your personal position (no matter what that position is) naive and/or lunatic isn't a new development.

"Left Communism: an infantile disorder", is an actual book. The author is V I Lenin.
 
Ubik said:
Would you be as happy if they were in opposition and losing ground, had a historically unpopular leader with no support among MSPs, and said supporters were happy with how things were going?

And I maintain, organising a twitterstorm to proudly insist that people on twitter are "his media" is a madness that is only likely to have any resonance within the kind of echo chamber that @Pogue Mahone spoke about recently. It's doubly worrying because Corbyn himself probably believes it and will continue to make little effort with the actual media that dominates the news cycle. Even Owen Jones was trying to gently tell them to get a clue



Neither side is going to just shake hands and agree to disagree anymore, whoever loses is either going to leave or come very close to it. Unfortunately for me, that looks near-certain to being my side at this juncture. Many will no doubt say good riddance, but there we are.
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And as someone pointed out to Owen Jones, the Conservative paid £1m for their Twitter/Facebook campaigns etc... last year and the Labour party just £16k. On the other hand, Vote Leave had a strong twitter presence and I would not be at all surprised to find out they were astroturfing the website during the website. It's blatantly important, and its only going to become more so.

Clearly Twitter/Facebook etc... do have some impact, and I'm not sure why/how the fact Corbyn appeals to a very genuine twitter following is being portrayed as a bad thing nor why the hashtag is a problem?
 
I think the internet is the greatest "thing" in the history of civilisation and that social media is a great vehicle for free speech. Both are liberating and therefore dangerous to conservatives. I used to have great respect for the BBC but have been shocked and dismayed at their bias lately. I do hope they can get their house in order quick smart.
 
Cheesy said:
No, but then I'd also be extremely pissed off when that same leader has been sabotaged by a considerable number of people within the party from the very moment he stepped into an office, with a determination from those against him to undermine him at every possible opportunity.

And speaking in an echo chamber is nothing new in social media, either. It's been common for a long time, and is pretty much encouraged by every party who will want their supporters to be as positive and convincing as is possible. I very much doubt in the lead-up to the 2015 election Labour were hoping for their supporters to express anything other than overwhelming support for the party - hell, I remember several hashtags and trends that were anti-Tory that I suspect were dominated by Labour supporters, considering they were the biggest opposition party.
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And the Tories didn't have much joy at all on Twitter, and they won a majority, whilst Labour did worse than expected. Exactly the point I'm trying to make - it's not the battleground that matters. I wasn't saying it started with Corbyn, I'm saying it's a lesson that should be learned from, not gleefully doubled down on.

NinjaFletch said:
And as someone pointed out to Owen Jones, the Conservative paid £1m for their Twitter/Facebook campaigns etc... last year and the Labour party just £16k. On the other hand, Vote Leave had a strong twitter presence and I would not be at all surprised to find out they were astroturfing the website during the website. It's blatantly important, and its only going to become more so.

Clearly Twitter/Facebook etc... do have some impact, and I'm not sure why/how the fact Corbyn appeals to a very genuine twitter following is being portrayed as a bad thing nor why the hashtag is a problem?
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They paid to show ads to targeted groups whose votes (and their family members') were up for grabs. And had most of the actual print media on their side already.

Decrying the "MSM" at every opportunity and thinking social media (particularly Twitter) can make up the deficit isn't really similar.
 
Ubik said:
And the Tories didn't have much joy at all on Twitter, and they won a majority, whilst Labour did worse than expected. Exactly the point I'm trying to make - it's not the battleground that matters. I wasn't saying it started with Corbyn, I'm saying it's a lesson that should be learned from, not gleefully doubled down on.



They paid to show ads to targeted groups whose votes (and their family members') were up for grabs. And had most of the actual print media on their side already.

Decrying the "MSM" at every opportunity and thinking social media (particularly Twitter) can make up the deficit isn't really similar.
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Right, but they still clearly thought Twitter was a useful/important way for them to get their message across. Organic tweets from genuine supporters might not have the same reach (or *sigh* impressions) as a targeted ad campaign, but they cost the Labour party nothing. It would be foolish to turn your nose up at that.

Besides, we both know why Corbyn supporters are 'decrying the MSM' and its not because they 'think they can make up the deficit', but because they think 'the MSM' is wilfully misrepresenting their candidate (claims that are blatantly grounded in reality). You might not think decrying main steam media is a sound electoral strategy, but on the other hand, theres something admirable about supporting someone you want to support not the one you're coerced into supporting by the media, isn't there?
 
NinjaFletch said:
Right, but they still clearly thought Twitter was a useful/important way for them to get their message across. Organic tweets from genuine supporters might not have the same reach (or *sigh* impressions) as a targeted ad campaign, but they cost the Labour party nothing. It would be foolish to turn your nose up at that.

Besides, we both know why Corbyn supporters are 'decrying the MSM' and its not because they 'think they can make up the deficit', but because they think 'the MSM' is wilfully misrepresenting their candidate (claims that are blatantly grounded in reality). You might not think decrying main steam media is a sound electoral strategy, but on the other hand, theres something admirable about supporting someone you want to support not the one you're coerced into supporting by the media, isn't there?
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Come on, they clearly think they can make it up, that's the whole point of saying "we are his media", it's all very romantic and "I'm Spartacus".

I guess we can just see what happens when the GE comes around. If they think they're going to repel the onslaught that's coming via hashtags and memes, it's going to be brutal.
 
Ubik said:
Come on, they clearly think they can make it up, that's the whole point of saying "we are his media", it's all very romantic and "I'm Spartacus".

I guess we can just see what happens when the GE comes around. If they think they're going to repel the onslaught that's coming via hashtags and memes, it's going to be brutal.
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I think they're trying to fight back against the narrative and draw attention to the issue; I don't think any of them think they're completely making up the deficit.
 
Ubik said:
Come on, they clearly think they can make it up, that's the whole point of saying "we are his media", it's all very romantic and "I'm Spartacus".

I guess we can just see what happens when the GE comes around. If they think they're going to repel the onslaught that's coming via hashtags and memes, it's going to be brutal.
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It seems obvious to me. What would you do in Corbyn's position if the mainstream media were clearly and demonstrably biased against you and you found you had hundreds and thousands flocking to see you and not just on top of icecreams?
 
DenisIrwin said:
It seems obvious to me. What would you do in Corbyn's position if the mainstream media were clearly and demonstrably biased against you and you found you had hundreds and thousands flocking to see you and not just on top of icecreams?
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Probably resign.
 
This one is amazing on multiple levels

 
Ubik said:
Probably resign.
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Come on. This is old (2013) and about marketing, not politics, but it might have relevance to a political campaign.
http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insigh...-influence-consumer-trust-in-advertising.html
There is a definite trend in the marketing world towards Word Of Mouth Online Marketing (WOMOM). Twitter and facebook (I guess - I don't do farcebook) are all about deciding who you want to "follow" or "like" (trust). It's not so dissimilar to word of mouth. In fact, in some social situations today, look around and see how many people are busy with "social media" rather than actually talking with each other.
 
DenisIrwin said:
Come on. This is old (2013) and about marketing, not politics, but it might have relevance to a political campaign.
http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insigh...-influence-consumer-trust-in-advertising.html
There is a definite trend in the marketing world towards Word Of Mouth Online Marketing (WOMOM). Twitter and facebook (I guess - I don't do farcebook) are all about deciding who you want to "follow" or "like" (trust). It's not so dissimilar to word of mouth. In fact, in some social situations today, look around and see how many people are busy with "social media" rather than actually talking with each other.
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And none of that overcomes the historically low favourability levels, the worse-than-Ed electoral results, the Labour-friendly media thinking him useless, and the MPs being in open revolt. He's the Black Knight in The Holy Grail. But he wants to turn Labour into a social movement, so we just come from a completely different angle.
 
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