I actually think the Tories are a much better party to be handling Brexit than the current centre left and unquestionably better than Corbyn's motley crew.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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I actually think the Tories are a much better party to be handling Brexit than the current centre left and unquestionably better than Corbyn's motley crew.
till momentum can stop throwing bricks and threatening to rape people / kill them for disagreeing with their point of view then yeah I'd say so though obviously putting the people doing those things in prison should happen as well.
I don't have a problem with it being a secret ballot, and that hardly circumvents democracy.
Why should a crucial contentious vote be influenced by the fears some NEC members may have of public repercussions?
Yeah, clearly she's seen a opportunity among those voters.
Every time I read about Momentum members threatening people who lack their unswerving faith in their shabbily dressed leader I keep thinking of this lot. Presume I'm not the first person to make the analogy?
Why should an MP or an appointed trade rep be able to hide thier voting record over fears it may harm their reselection?
Their safety is of utmost importance that goes without saying but this isnt the solution at all.
Every time I read about Momentum members threatening people because of their unswerving faith in their shabbily dressed leader I keep thinking of this lot. Presume I'm not the first person to make the analogy?
Septa Unella
Don't you think you're generalising a tad bit there by labelling momentum as rapists and vandals?
meh - apparently im blairite scum who must support the war in iraq etc just because i think corbyn is a useless twunt so generalisations cut both ways
What is undeniable is that that some members of Momentum apparently feel pretty much any means justify their end goal - just as Im sure there are some members of the BNP who are not moronic racists but you know what they say about a few bad apples
There is no proof that momentum was responsible for a broken window. And anybody can hide behind a computer making threats .
Corbyn now the most unpopular leader of the opposition (at this stage of leadership) in recent history
Ed was pretty good, in relative terms!
The irony is, a vote for Corbyn is a vote for the Tories, not the 'Blairite wannabes', the actual Tories.
Ed was pretty good, in relative terms!
The irony is, a vote for Corbyn is a vote for the Tories, not the 'Blairite wannabes', the actual Tories.
No it isn't. A vote for Corbyn is just that: a vote for Corbyn. Unless you still hold any sort of belief that someone like Angela fecking Eagle has even the slightest chance against the Tories.
The upside of all this is that people have been motivated to become involved in politics. The trend since forever has been to have greater and greater apathy among the electorate, but it's swinging the other way now.
The Tories have been absolutely over the moon with the rise of Corbyn because they have foresight, they are smart political operators. Corbyn destroys the relevance of the Labour party and if you vote for him you are facilitating that and the country being dominated by the Tories for the foreseeable, in my opinion.
The Labour party in general are destroying their own relevance by actively alienating the majority viewpoint of their membership. You may not like Corbyn, but the parties willingness to ignore the democratic views of their members and even try to exclude many from voting for the sole reason of who they support is fecking shocking.
The thing is that this is largely self-fulfilling. I don't think Corbyn's particularly skilled or talented politically, but he's quite clearly what the members want, and as a result the party should've tried to make it work. They haven't done so, though. They've worked to undermine him from day one, to say, "See! See! We were right." And now, they've discovered that it still isn't working, and that people still want Corbyn in charge.
It also shows a basic lack of taking responsibility. Last year it was the fault of the SNP for the Tories getting in. Now, it's the fault of Corbyn voters. When are Labour going to take some fecking responsibility? When are those trying to orchestrate, and those supporting, the coup, going to recognise that all of their plans have completely failed, that they are actively undermining the membership, and that their inability to get into power is not because of the SNP, or Corbyn, or anyone else...and due to the fact that they're not only unable to convince the country that they're best for government, but that they're also unable to convince even the fecking party that they are?
Yeah I bet they hated the time before Corbyn when Labour MPs abstained. They have nightmares about being unopposed by the opposition.
Quite right.
It's one thing appealing to a couple of hundred thousand of the noisiest supporters but a whole different ball game to getting elected at a general election. The Labour MP's and anyone with half a brain can see this but sadly Corbyn is too stubborn to see it or even care. He loves being in opposition.
Its one thing generalising someone as a Blairite, its quite another to generalise them as a rapist.
I recon most corbynistas think its worse to be called a blaitite dont they
Labour have been out of government for only two terms FFS. New Labour won three on the bounce. Gordon Brown was stained by being the chancellor around the time of the banking crisis and the fact that he had no official mandate. Ed was too left wing, not trusted to run the economy because of that and too weak a personality. All that said, Labour remained relevant despite that.
Corbyn and the hard left will destroy that remaining relevance, everyone knows it except for his supporters.
Do you really think the Tory delight around Corbyn's rise is feigned?
You haven't actually addressed what I was saying, though: the party members quite clearly, by a distance, want Corbyn. Labour have made no actual effort or attempt to make it work, undermining him from as soon as he stepped into power. The opponents of Corbyn are just as responsible for the current state of the party, and their desire to deflect blame elsewhere for their failures shows why they are doing so terribly, when they attempt to mask their incompetence with other factors.
I don't think they give two shiny shites either way. Whether Corbyn is in charge or not, the MPs in question will still dance to the Tory tune. Jamie Reed for example has already said that if he doesn't think they have the numbers to vote something down, he won't be voting at all. Even looking like you're against a bill is too left wing for this bunch.
I don't know... I think they are doing a pretty good job of undermining him
They're doing a good job of undermining him, but they've been insipid and pathetic in their attempts to get rid of him. They've managed to somehow piss off a large portion of the membership (showing contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with their agenda) by not allowing some recent members to vote, they've somehow failed to present a viable leadership candidate (Eagle
), and have also managed to look horrendously incompetent in the process. They're making Corbyn look quite skilled by comparison.They have no answer to this. You will only ever get glib responses or something along the lines of they know better and Corbyn is unelectable.
Corbyn's voters in the leadership election were more representative of the average british citizen than any of his opponents.
The only focus group study I saw in the leadership elections indicated that UKIP voters preferred Corbyn to all of his opponents.
Any poll of Corbyn AFTER the leadership election cannot be treated as poll of him in isolation - it's only ever a reflection of the party as a whole and the anti-Corbyn MPs have done their absolute best to ensure that the party looks as pathetic as possible.
In addition to that they've done a shit job of that that has reflected worse on themselves as it has Corbyn, thus ensuring that the party is doomed in the next election no matter who the leader is.
If you're a UKIP voter and Labour MPs are telling you "don't vote for our leader" then you will probably take great heed of that. Nice one Labour MPs, way to campaign for your party.
Corbyn has plenty of flaws but I'll vote him over the dirty rotten liars that currently look like they'll be running against him any day of the week.
Most of Corbyn's supporters were not even in the Labour party before he appeared on the ballot. Do you really think that Corbyn's camp wants this to work anyway? This is what they want. I have said before in this thread that neither side had any real interest in working with each other.
A centre left Labour is something to build on at least. A hard left Labour is suicide.
Case in point.
Every time I read about Momentum members threatening people who lack their unswerving faith in their shabbily dressed leader I keep thinking of this lot. Presume I'm not the first person to make the analogy?
Angela Eagle is no Cercei.
Corbyn would have won the election with or without new members.
I suspect the end game will be 150MP's walking en masse to form a new new labour party or some lib / lab coalition and becoming the official opposition whilst relegating Corbyn to the side line of politics (literally in parliament).They're doing a good job of undermining him, but they've been insipid and pathetic in their attempts to get rid of him. They've managed to somehow piss off a large portion of the membership (showing contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with their agenda) by not allowing some recent members to vote, they've somehow failed to present a viable leadership candidate (Eagle
Corbyn will keep the Union money and new new labour (for want of a better expression) will hoover up as much pro eu business money as is available
It will be messy but I think a split is now an inevitability
The popular press was all for criticising Ed Miliband's eating habits. This hypothetical new Labour leaders needs to bring them onside ASAP, give them everything they want. Then the press can write stories about how insubstantial the Tory attacks are.
That is what my hopes for the future are pinned on at the moment.
To be honest I can't see that many MPs going all at once. Some are too emotionally connected, some don't have the bollards, some will think Corbyn would fail eventually, some will (fairly) worry that a collapse in the Labour vote in the north will let UKIP run amok. And to have a chance of making it work I think you'd need about that many, as well as a lot of money spent on PR and advertising afterwards.
if they dont momentum are just going to delselect all the ones who didnt back him in the confidence vote and put up a bunch of people who are undetectable so Im not sure doing nothing will be an option anyway
Possible. Might also be that the coming leadership campaign is so brutal than anyone on the not-Corbyn side will feel no choice.
I certainly don't envisage a cordial debate... and I fully suspect the trident handgrenade to be lobbed into the middle of the fight by Theresa May around about conference season
Wait, wanting MPs to actually vote on a Welfare Bill is hard left now? Is that how far British politics has fallen?
Wait, wanting MPs to actually vote on a Welfare Bill is hard left now? Is that how far British politics has fallen?
I mean that you are not interested in winning elections, rather that posturing is more important to you.
investing in people can never be out of date. Of course if you buy into the trickle down economics mumbo jumbo it will seem so.
You did not answer him.