Januzaj | Confirmed: On Loan at Dortmund

[Sphaero]

Kind of backs up what the fanzines are saying about the problem LvG and Giggs have with him. Giggs and Rio apparently gave him a bit of a lecture about his attitude and arrogance in the Moyes season*

*Must trademark that. The Moyes season

It is funny how different reactions to the same News can be. For the majority of the Dortmund supporters Januzaj´s decision to stay with the club was a positive one and showed motivation to learn the tactical system under Tuchel as quickly as possible. The international breaks often give Teams the chance to actually work with the nonstarters (as most starter are Internationals) more closely and without the usual interruptions. Especially for teams which play games in 3 day rythms most of the time so many opportunities to train are a welcomed rarity.

I said right from the start that one of the biggest obstacles Januzaj would face was the lack of a pre season, which is something that is often very underestimated. He joined the club when the season was already in full swing and time for training heavily limited.

EDIT: Did not see the post above mine while posting. Appearantly his Agent sees things the same way and he makes a couple of very good points.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Him not wanting to play for u21's doesn't mean he has a bad attitude for gods sake. Also having a big ego has never been a problem for any sportsmen.

 

[Balu]

If Martial was asked to play for the French u21 nationalteam and declined to focus on his integration at United during the short break, the Caf would praise his sense for what's important for his career.

 

[RooneyLegend]

You are overreacting IMO, LvG has already said he believes in the quality of Januzaj and he has played a good amount of minutes under him so there shouldn't be any reason to panic.
He is still only 20 which many of us seem to forget, not alot of youngsters are playing reguarly for big clubs at that age.

He hasn't shown all that much belief in him which is much more important than what he says. Doubt a club the size of Dortmund would take him in on loan if they thought it was impossible to get him permanently. He's struggled for any sort of consistent game time hence he left.

 

[sun_tzu]

I said right from the start that one of the biggest obstacles Januzaj would face was the lack of a pre season, which is something that is often very underestimated.

When you consider that was it a mistake to send him out on loan when we did?

If he is going to spend 6 months learning a new system before he gets any games would he not (and we not) have benefited more from him becoming more accustomed to our system and almost certainly at this point in the season I think he would have played significantly more minutes for us than he has on Loan.

Perhaps in future we either need to arrange loans early in the window so the player gets the pre season at the new club or we need to keep the players here?

I still have high hopes of Adnan developing into a good player for us and presumably giggs but whoever the next manager is will have an exceptional pool of young talent coming through (martial, wilson, depay, janauzj, periera, and shaw spring instantly to mind) of course not all of them will fulfil their potential but if a couple of them do and a couple get close then that is a great base to start from - personally I hope Adnan is a united player next year so he can be training alongside the others and developing a raport and better understanding of the other players games (and vice versa) as I think that will be the best for his and our long term development (rather than sitting on the bench in germany)

 

[Pexbo]

If Martial was asked to play for the French u21 nationalteam and declined to focus on his integration at United during the short break, the Caf would praise his sense for what's important for his career.

That just not true at all. He might get a few "good for him, feck internationals" but that would only be in the same spirit as if he declined a full international friendly cap. I think quite a few people would be disappointed to see him making decisions like that.



Regarding Januzaj, I've been thinking about the journalists saying he was demanding games in the early season and kicking up a bit of a fuss that he wasn't getting starts for us. A part of me is wondering if Van Gaal/Giggs opted to send him to Dortmund as a bit of a wake up call. You don't like sitting on our bench and earning your chance? Fine go and see how you get on at another club and then decide if you think its just us holding you back.

A lot of us on here said he's going to be in the same position at Dortmund as he was here, perhaps the club knew that and thought it best for his development if he also realised that.

 

[Balu]

That just not true at all. He might get a few "good for him, feck internationals" but that would only be in the same spirit as if he declined a full international friendly cap. I think quite a few people would be disappointed to see him making decisions like that.

I doubt that. I'd understand it if Januzaj was a regular in the u21 side still waiting for the first call-up for the first team, but he was a part of the senior nationalteam squad over the last year and it doesn't make any sense to throw him into an unknown youth side all of a sudden under an unknown coach with new teammates when he won't feature there longterm anyway. What's the point, when he won't play for the u21 side longterm? It makes even less sense when he's struggling to find his place at his new club and could really use the time to change that. I think youth nationalteams are important and players should go there and play for them on their way up to senior level. But it makes zero sense in Januzaj's case to join the u21 team once out of nowhere.

 

[BD]

I get the feeling he'll be at Dortmund beyond this year. What's the consensus in Germany, particularly among Dortmund fans. Do they think he'll stay on? Do they want him to stay on?

 

[Sphaero]

When you consider that was it a mistake to send him out on loan when we did?

I consider the loan in general as mistake (as I stated on here then) as the destination was never the right one in the first place. The timing made it even worse, though.

I get the feeling he'll be at Dortmund beyond this year. What's the consensus in Germany, particularly among Dortmund fans. Do they think he'll stay on? Do they want him to stay on?

If the price is reasonable (up to 20 Mil.€), then yes, definitively. I don´t know about the likelihood of that happening, as I still don´t really understand LvG´s reasoning behind the loan.

The best thing for Januzaj would be that he gets clearity very quickly, as best until around Christmas. If United intends to take him back anyway, they should try to reach an agreement with Dortmund to get him back in the Winter. If LvG simply does not rate Januzaj that much, then United and Dortmund should negotiate towards a permanent solution if Januzaj himself is willing to stay (and outside the pitch he appears to have fun and is very well integrated) long term.

This would change his situation instantly as his development would become important for Dortmund aswell.

Even without that, I expect Januzaj to get more game time as the season goes on. I believe that the Winter break will help him greatly to reach the tactical level he needs to feature consistently for us. Furthermore, I think the number of games where we can risk a bit will increase in the second season half. I expect us to relatively quickly reach a stage in the league where we are safe for the CL spots but too far behind Bayern to challenge for the title. Such a scenario would be ideal to give a talent a run of games as starter and be more forgiving about performances if it furthers his development. It would greatly help him to be a real Dortmund player by then, though.

 

[SirBobbysCombover]

I know this is a sore subject and many people were disappointed with Kagawa during his spell with us. I was as well. But, I still rate him and can't help feeling he never got a fair shake with us. Yes he should have done better with the opportunities given, but he rarely ever played in his best position as a #10 and everyone played like shite (bar Januzaj) under Moyes. No doubt he's a better #10 than Rooney is now, and I believe he was then as well.

Pretty much agree with this sentiment, I thought Fergie showed Moyesy in that Norwich game where Shinji looked red-hot, shame he never got a full run in that 10 role

 

[NinjaFletch]

In Januzaj's first match for the club he needed to be withdrawn with after 64 minutes, and has since been playing catch-up with his fitness.

According to Zorc, Januzaj is now making steady progress "regarding physicalness and robustness."

In the same article, Zorc talks about how he won't have his loan cut short.

I don't truly see a problem with the loan, yes he could go somewhere else and play more but thats based on the fallacious assumption that play time = success for young players.

I can't really think of a better finishing school to go to, if you see it that way, than Dortmund who have an enviable record of improving talent in recent years and a coach who's, at the very least, not Tony Pulis or the like.

Put it this way, if we accept that his loaning was inevitable then is he really worse off going to Dortmund and playing ~20 games this season, training in a world class environment and playing with the likes of Reus or going to West Brom where he might play 30-40 games this season if fit, but will spend his entire time drilling defensive shape and set pieces?

I also think you can see it as something of a test for him, I doubt it was expected he'd go in and play from the off, but its a case of forcing himself into the team. I think people are also vastly inflating the amount of time he would have got here, Van Gaal clearly was not impressed with his form otherwise he'd still be here so he'd have been back up to Rooney, Herrera, Martial, Mata, Lingard and Depay at various points this season. I don't think theres much likelihood he would have continued in the first team.

 

[Crossie]

I get the feeling he'll be at Dortmund beyond this year. What's the consensus in Germany, particularly among Dortmund fans. Do they think he'll stay on? Do they want him to stay on?

Everybody I know admires his technical abilities but whether or not he's an asset to the team, opinions are widely spread, and linked to that whether or not we should keep him beyond December.
Similar to Sphaero, most think he'll benefit from the training camp in January and it would be too early to judge upon him now, linked with the hope he'll come good and then stay. There's also consensus that the loan should only be terminated before January if there's a proper replacement for our attacking midfield.

 

[SSSSnake]

Januzaj frustrated me...he has great technical ability but Everytime he started he kept losing the ball and getting muscled off. I hope he can beef up a bit to handle the physical side of the game.

 

[mazhar13]

If he´d think of Januzaj as a big talent, he would have used him regardless of what anyone else thinks. LvG would hardly send a highly rated player onto a loan; that is not how LvG roles. He´d develop him himself.

To be fair, he loaned out Kroos in his first season managing Bayern before making him a regular in his second season. All's not lost for Januzaj as long as he proves himself to van Gaal.

With regards to this loan spell, I think it'll give him a bit of a kick up the backside and make him mature some more. The fact that he's away from his "home" environment should help him mature some more and apply his game better. Plus, even if he isn't playing regularly, he's still being coached in a good system with some great players.

 

[caid]

I kind of made peace with januzaj's situation.
Yes he would have played as many if not more games for us
but him leaving opened up opportunities to lingard and pereira and it'll probably do him good in the long run.

He probably wouldn't have been pulling up any trees or making a drastic difference to our play
so spreading the experience around our squad to leave us in a stronger position in a year or twos time seems fine, maybe even wise.

And it'll give him a new challenge and experiences instead of spending another season on the fringes of our first team.

 

[Rood]

bring him home ASAP - always thought it was a bad idea to loan him out in the first place, and if he had to go then it really should have been in England.

 

[Cantona'sCollar]

I don`t know. There were periods when he looked great for us but Overall he has not (yet) made it here and it seems to be the same in Dortmund.

He has got potential that`s for sure.

Maybe we should loan him out to a weaker Team than Dortmund.

True - he hasn't been great at Dortmund, but I think he has shown small moments which are very promising. They have so many quality players, he'd need to be doing something extraordinary to be starting there. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing him on loan next season at a smaller club, as long as they play good football.

 

[NoPace]

Not that these comparisons actually work but I'd have Mata, Herrera, De Gea, Smalling, Shaw, Martial, probably Schweinsteiger (if not Schneiderlin) and I don't think RB is 100% locked. The areas that they'd have players get into our team are the exaxt areas that we'll be looking to improve upon with players similar to their best players (the likes of Reus and Aubameyang).

For instance if Rooneys legs hadn't dropped off and Di Maria performed like we thought he would, we might not see any of their front 6. These are now two priorities for us because of the aforementioned failures.

Nah. When healthy, Reus has been solidly better than Rooney, Mata, Di Maria or Martial for the last 3-4 seasons. Hair under 1 in 2 for Dortmund (League and all comps) and that's without ever really playing up top. Not a selfish player either. And Gundogan is just a fantastic player. They'd walk into our team even if Rooney was on the finest PED regimen of all time and Di Maria was mayor of the city:

-------Rooney------
Reus------------DiMaria
--Gundogan-Herrera---
---Schneid/Schwein---

 

[Balu]

To be fair, he loaned out Kroos in his first season managing Bayern before making him a regular in his second season.

Kroos was loaned out in January 2009 under Klinsmann. Van Gaal had nothing to do with it. The only player who went out on loan during van Gaal's time at Bayern was Alaba. And van Gaal was clearly against the loan, publicly stating that Alaba would be better off staying and learning from him in training instead of playing regularly somewhere else. The board granted Alaba's wish to leave, because van Gaal barely gave him playing time after the few initial games.

 

[Bwuk]

Aubameyang
Reus - Kagawa - Martial
Schweinsteiger - Gundogan
Shaw - Hummels - Smalling - Ginter
De Gea​

That'd be my mix.

Kagawa is class and we wasted him here.

 

[Xaviesta]

Aubameyang
Reus - Kagawa - Martial
Schweinsteiger - Gundogan
Shaw - Hummels - Smalling - Ginter
De Gea​

That'd be my mix.

Kagawa is class and we wasted him here.

Would you have all out attack Tuchel or process oriented van Gaal manage that team?

 

[sun_tzu]

Even without that, I expect Januzaj to get more game time as the season goes on. I believe that the Winter break will help him greatly to reach the tactical level he needs to feature consistently for us. Furthermore, I think the number of games where we can risk a bit will increase in the second season half. I expect us to relatively quickly reach a stage in the league where we are safe for the CL spots but too far behind Bayern to challenge for the title. Such a scenario would be ideal to give a talent a run of games as starter and be more forgiving about performances if it furthers his development. It would greatly help him to be a real Dortmund player by then, though.

But surely at that point Dortmund play their own young players (unless they have an option to buy in the loan deal)?

 

[Bwuk]

Would you have all out attack Tuchel or process oriented van Gaal manage that team?

Tuchel.

 

[Nickosaur]

Aubameyang
Reus - Kagawa - Martial
Schweinsteiger - Gundogan
Shaw - Hummels - Smalling - Ginter
De Gea​

That'd be my mix.

Kagawa is class and we wasted him here.

Feck me that's a team

 

[Brophs]

Kagawa needs firing from a fecking cannon into the sun. He was pretty rubbish for us.

 

[caid]

Kagawa needs firing from a fecking cannon into the sun. He was pretty rubbish for us.

He kind of wasn't imo.
His first season was promising. Under moyes he was fairly poor but better than all our other attacking players bar rooney and mata.
There was a lot of problems with that moyes team, he was far from the worst of them.
Van Gaal sold him because we had about 5 #10's at the time (and we still kind of do)
and he did it about 2 months into the job.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Kagawa needs firing from a fecking cannon into the sun. He was pretty rubbish for us.

This.

 

[Roosney]

Kagawa needs firing from a fecking cannon into the sun. He was pretty rubbish for us.

That's a bit harsh. He was too light-weight for PL and didn't get it going. Was good in UCL iirc.

 

[NinjaFletch]

He kind of wasn't imo.
His first season was promising. Under moyes he was fairly poor but better than all our other attacking players bar rooney and mata.
There was a lot of problems with that moyes team, he was far from the worst of them.
Van Gaal sold him because we had about 5 #10's at the time (and we still kind of do)
and he did it about 2 months into the job.

Of course he was.

He played 60 games for 3 managers and probably his best spell was under Moyes at the back end of the season when the rest of the team had given up.

He played regularly, and in important games (he started away in Madrid and Bayern) and he never played well enough to nail down his spot.

If he's doing well again at Dortmund good on him, but he clearly wasn't good enough for us.

 

[Sereques]

Of course he was.

He played 60 games for 3 managers and probably his best spell was under Moyes at the back end of the season when the rest of the team had given up.

He played regularly, and in important games (he started away in Madrid and Bayern) and he never played well enough to nail down his spot.

If he's doing well again at Dortmund good on him, but he clearly wasn't good enough for us.

Kagawa fans will never accept he wasn't good enough for mufc. It's always the manager's fault even though Kagawa couldn't nail down a spot under 3 managers.

 

[sun_tzu]

Kagawa fans will never accept he wasn't good enough for mufc. It's always the manager's fault even though Kagawa couldn't nail down a spot under 3 managers.

He made 56 appearances for us over 2 seasons - If he wasn't good enough then there were plenty of other options in the team who could have been used.
He wasn't a stand out player in the squad - but by the very definition most players aren't - I dont think he was what we needed at the time - and he certainly was not suited to playing on the wing but he still remains a very good player

 

[Geordopolous]

Aubameyang
Reus - Kagawa - Martial
Schweinsteiger - Gundogan
Shaw - Hummels - Smalling - Ginter
De Gea​

That'd be my mix.

Kagawa is class and we wasted him here.

Sweet team but I'd have Schneiderlin for gundogan and darmian for Ginter but that's just my bias I think

 

[Deleted member 78215]

Of course he was.

He played 60 games for 3 managers and probably his best spell was under Moyes at the back end of the season when the rest of the team had given up.

He played regularly, and in important games (he started away in Madrid and Bayern) and he never played well enough to nail down his spot.

If he's doing well again at Dortmund good on him, but he clearly wasn't good enough for us.

But that's silly. He's good enough for this rejuvenated Dortmund team yet wasn't good enough for a Man United team that finished 7th under David Moyes? Obviously the laws of transitivity don't really apply in football, but yeah, I don't buy it. He might not have been pulling trees up under Fergie, but he definitely showed himself to be good enough.

He's been excellent for Dortmund this season, a team I believe would beat us most times out of ten. Basically he was definitely good enough.

 

[do.ob]

I still don't get why the trainwreck of a season under a failure like Moyes is what a player's quality is measured by or what this has to do with Januzaj, but I suppose this Tuchel fella must be one hell of a manager if he has his team score 3 goals a game on average with all those mediocre players.

 

[Crossie]

He made 56 appearances for us over 2 seasons - If he wasn't good enough then there were plenty of other options in the team who could have been used.
He wasn't a stand out player in the squad - but by the very definition most players aren't - I dont think he was what we needed at the time - and he certainly was not suited to playing on the wing but he still remains a very good player

A player can appear in all games but at the same time only be a sub. It would be more helpful to know minutes played than number of appearances.

IIRC, he played quite a bit under SAF but has also been injured for some time.

Under Moyes, he hardly got more than 2-3 subsequent games. On, off, on, off until the season was pretty screwed.

When LvG arrived, I was under the impression that he was already fed up with his spell and waited for us to bring him home. #freeshinji had been in full swing for quite some months.

Edit: I still love this gif by Statsbomb

 

[sun_tzu]

A player can appear in all games but at the same time only be a sub.

IIRC, he played quite a bit under SAF but has also been injured for some time.

Under Moyes, he hardly got more than 2-3 subsequent games. On, off, on, off until the season was pretty screwed.

When LvG arrived, I was under the impression that he was already fed up with his spell and waited for us to bring him home. #freeshinji had been in full swing for quite some months.

22 starts and 4 subs appearances in his first season
23 starts and 7 subs appearances in his second

Never got much opportunity to play behind the striker but at the time RVP and Rooney was a pretty awesome pairing to have - looked lost on the wing though and it was obvious that was not his natural position

 

[Crossie]

@sun_tzu
Thanks, it clearly didn't help him being played out of position. I added the gif by Statsbomb to my post which shows how much he deteriorated under Moyes.

 

[Crossie]

Januzaj travelled with the team to Hamburg. Chances for him starting tomorrow are slim, I'd say. Tuchel considers Reus who has recovered from his injury for the starting XI, Mkhitaryan is fully fit and rested.

 

[PedroMendez]

On all those pictures he looks pretty well integrated which is a great sign. Obviously those pictures could very misleading.

 

[Gol123]

Aubameyang
Reus - Kagawa - Martial
Schweinsteiger - Gundogan
Shaw - Hummels - Smalling - Ginter
De Gea​

That'd be my mix.

Kagawa is class and we wasted him here.

Mkhitaryan over Martial for me.