It's got to be very hard to tell a kid like Januzaj that he needs to pick a lesser loan club to make sure he gets games. No one wants to suggest he can't make it there, like no one wanted to tell Machida he was going to a club where he was unlikely to play for his first loan.
Januzaj | Confirmed: On Loan at Dortmund
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I am honestly surprised, that there is so much controversy about LvG´s opinion on Januzaj. LvG has a track-record of bold decisions. If he´d think of Januzaj as a big talent, he would have used him regardless of what anyone else thinks. LvG would hardly send a highly rated player onto a loan; that is not how LvG roles. He´d develop him himself. Additionally United is rather short on attacking players, so even if you don´t rate him super-high he could get a good amount of minutes. There can only be one conclusion and that is that LvG doesn´t rate Januzaj. I doubt that he cares much about what happens to him, because he won´t play any role as long as he is the manager.
As I said it's nothing to do with Van Gaal. If Januzaj can't get ahead of those players then he isn't going to get anywhere near United's team next season.
It'd be easy to send him to Salford City on loan and he'd play every game, but Van Gaal is obviously aware that part of a young player's developing is competing with players and keeping your place when good players are waiting in the wings for one bad performance.
I'm sure Van Gaal thought Dortmund were the perfect balance between a competitive club and at the same time not too great to prevent him having a chance (like if he were sent to Bayern).
I'd have thought an English team would have been for the best; Leicester, Palace, or Watford for example. We used to loan out players to Watford a few years ago and they got plenty of playing time. Dortmund does seem a bit of a strange destination for him.
I know this is a sore subject and many people were disappointed with Kagawa during his spell with us. I was as well. But, I still rate him and can't help feeling he never got a fair shake with us. Yes he should have done better with the opportunities given, but he rarely ever played in his best position as a #10 and everyone played like shite (bar Januzaj) under Moyes. No doubt he's a better #10 than Rooney is now, and I believe he was then as well.
Have you actually seen Kagawa this season? He is basically back to his best self, which puts him in terms of performance level way ahead what Januzaj is currently capabale of.
People act like Januzaj has been rubbish in the minutes he played and is benched because of that. He was decent everytime he stepped on the pitch, but when you play in a team capabable of creating tons of chances and scoring around three goals per game, making them the second best offensive in terms of scored goals in all European top leagues, then decent does not cut it. His competition simply outperforms him right now.
If I use the ability to make it into Dortmund´s current front four as measure stick for United material, then the club should get a complete overhaul in the offense because based on performances in this season, not a single United attacker would start for them if everyone is fit.
Dortmund scored 35 goals in 12 games. Two less than bayern, 18 more than United, 13 more than Arsenal, 9 more than City, 10 more than Barca, 9 more than Real, 19 more than Atletico (BBVA only had it's 11th match day) and those mediocre players in midfield that this 20 year old raw diamond should just simply keep out of the squad might actually have something to do with it.
Maybe LVG loaned him to Dortmund despite the stiff competition for his spot because if he can't make it there he will not be good enough for United. Pretty simple.
I thought about that too, but why only lone him out then? Without a clause even? And why give him so much play time at the beginning of the season?
I suppose it could be possible that van Gaal wanted to sell him even earlier but got vetoed, so he played him in order to prove that he wasn't the answer to United's problems and then he only got loaned out because someone sees a future for him after van Gaal is gone, but that sounds a bit far fetched to me.
Dortmund's current attacking options are better than United's.Plus it's far much harder to break into a team when you're a loanee especially when that team scored 35 in their last 12 matches.There's no need for them to change anything.
Except none of our players would make it into Dortmund's attacking four. It is also a ridiculous way to view a 20 year old.
So we need a better attack but yet the player that can't cope with a 'very' good attacking side should be considered as returning to us to.... improve us exactly how?
I wouldn't read anything to how Kagawa is performing because quite simply he isn't good enough for where we want to be which is why he is back there.
I didn't say our attack is better than theirs, just that if Januzaj doesn't get games there he may not be at the level that LVG wants moving forward. Really not that controversial
Van Gaal let Kagawa go because he wasn't good enough. If Januzaj is going to make it here he's going to have to put in performances that put him above players like Kagawa.
All I would say is youth players now have to be as good as players the manager would buy if they are to make it at a club like United. Would Van Gaal buy any of Dortmunds attack apart from Reus and Alphabet Kid? Obviously not because their next best player was sold for not being good enough.
In terms of the chances created and goals scored etc it's comparing Apples and Oranges. Martial, Mata and Herrera walk into Dortmunds team in my opinion (although again it's not worth debating as you'll massively disagree).
Rooney, Martial and Mata would be first team players at Dortmund. Don't be silly. The prior on name alone.
Sorry but Reus and Aubameyang >> any of those three.Obviously Martial has the potential to be better than anyone.
The basic point being it's nearly impossible for an 20 years old loanee to break into that team and using it to say that Januzaj is not good enough for United is as stupid as saying he should start every game for us.
Attacking four?? Lets be honest that is still debatable. I would have them two starting here but only Reus is a definite starter.
Maybe he gave Adnan a shot at changing his mind and wasn´t overly happy about what he saw. At the same time Giggs, Woody and part of the coaching/scouting staff might have a different opinion so they were reluctant to sell him at the time. LvG might not have the job forever. I know that all of this is highly speculative and I don´t mind if people have a different opinion. Still I think it is very unlikely that LvG rates Januzaj.
I believe the chances that this was LvG's thinking are close to zero. Unlike fans and pundits, LvG is able to put things into context.
I'm still under the impression that the destination of this loan (Dortmund) was driven by Januzaj's, not United's wish.
Maybe LVG wants players that are at least good enough to get into or close to Dortmund's first XI, we want an attack that is better than theirs not an attack that contains players that couldn't make it there. Not to say he won't make it eventually but it seems like LVG is throwing him into the deep end and saying "sink or swim".
Don't be silly? Yet you think Rooney would start over Auba? You're the one being silly, I am one of Rooney's biggest fans here but he comes nowhere even close to Auba right now. I can only assume you don't watch Dortmund at all because Auba is one of the best strikers in the world and in his current form probably only Lewandowski and Suarez are ahead of him.
I don't think Mata would get in, he is too slow in his play and wouldn't fit into Dortmund's style. Kagawa and Micky are also in much better form. Martial would have a shout but he wouldn't get to play if he was on loan either, which is exactly the point on Adnan.
It is a ridiculous way to look at a young player and if van Gaal thinks like that he should be fired because he is an idiot. We would never loan in a 20 year old and play him over our players but it doesn't mean they will never be good enough.
I share the same thinking that LVG wanted to throw Januzaj in the deep end but I think it's more about character building and tactical awareness learning.I don't think he expected Januzaj to break into that team.Still from what I've seen Januzaj definitely has shown some improvements this season in his limited time so I don't get all the doom and gloom.It's the same as Lingard's loan at Derby last season.He's on the bench a lot but it actually doesn't mean that much at the end.Plus we can't afford to give enough chances to Januzaj,Pereira and Lingard together with none of them being starters (Lingard managed to break into the XI is a surprise but I don't think LVG expected that).
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So Van Gaal was quite happy to send him to Dortmunds bench whereby his value diminishes and his game time is limited and development is stunted?
That sounds like the naive opinion to me. Rather than just the fact that he had high opinions of the lad.
No, just no. Does not have the legs anymore to play for us on the wings (which requires quite a lot of defensive work), lacks the creativiy for the center and is simply too harmless in front of the goal to be the main striker.
Martial is a massive talent, but the only position he would be viable in our system would be as CF, which would put him in direct competition with Aubameyang, who scored 14 goals in 12 league games (22 in 20 games in total). This is a hugely unfair comparision for the little French guy, as no player of that age should be expected to score on that level. Auba is right now in a different league.
Mata is the most debatable one, as I believe he would shine in our fluid offensive set up, but I rate Kagawa´s pressing skills way higher (which has far more importance for us than for United) and he has amazing understanding with Gündogan, building the creative midfield pair, which is big fat unknwown in case of Mata.
People need to get away to just think about individual quality when discussing such scenarios. Suitability for a system and synergy between the players are just as important, if not even more so. It means absolutely nothing that Kagawa failed at United as the style of football was a completely different one as in Dortmund. For Januzaj´s chances it is only imprtant how Kagawa performs for Dortmund as this is their battlefield and nowhere else.
Creating an offensive formtation is about far more than just fierlding the best indiviualists, it is about creating the best working unit and that is why none of United´s players would displace one of the current Dortmund starters as none would actually improve the unit.
Have you watched Dortmund play? Rooney 1st team player at BVB? Are you kiddin'?
I can understand that people are enthusiastic about Martial but he wouldn't be picked ahead of Auba. Also, Mata wouldn't be an obvious first team starter though the closest of the three you mentioned.
Sometimes there are things we just don't know.
Definitely agree that the learning and character building are a part of it but I do think that if he is not able to get close to the first XI he may not be at the level LVG wants our attacking players to be at. With that being said it is still early and he is young, lots can still happen. My point is that the loan is not that crazy and in fact will probably be good for the team in the long run. Either Adnan steps up and builds on what he learned there or shows that he doesn't have the mettle and we can move on.
Loans are very much about learning and maturing but they are also great for testing a player without setting back your club if the player isn't or won't be ready for that step up.
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I know you weren't saying the loan is a bad thing, that was directed to those that said it was a shit decision by LVG. We are arguing for the same thing just from different angles.
That's neither what I wrote nor meant.
I wrote that I believe LvG is a professional coach, capable of judging upon Dortmund's season (and players) in context and not, as so many fans and pundits do, based on one single season.
Also, I wrote that I'm under the impression that it was Januzaj's wish to be loaned to Dortmund. Not in the sense that he wished to be loaned out at all - but if the club wanted him to get experience, then at a club he felt attracted to.
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So apparently he refused to join Belgium's U21s. For a qualifier, not a friendly. I don't know about his motivations, but even putting them aside it's a shame as he could have used the playing time.
But if Van Gaal felt he'd be sat on the bench losing his value and losing a key opportunity for first team football and experience, then he'd have persuaded Januzaj to either stay or to join another club on loan.
For me he either thought Januzaj would gain a lot of valuable first team experience or thought that if he couldn't make an impression on the Dortmund team then not in a month of Sundays would he make Uniteds team.
As I alluded to earlier - to improve we look to buy the best players from clubs like Dortmund so if he can't make an impression there he's not doing enough to make an impression here.
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Bit deluded, I think. A Dortmund-United side would include at least as many Dortmund players as United players, surely:
---------Aubameyang--------------
Reus-------Martial------Mkhitaryan
-----Gundogan-Schneiderlin
Shaw-Hummels-Smalling-Ginter
-------------De Gea---------------
with the bold names replaceable with lots of options like Herrera, Kagawa or Mata. But the other 5 Dortmund and 4 United players seem solidly superior to their competition at the other side.
This summer we bought the best players from PSV, Torino, Southampton, a starter (and the best young player) at Monaco and about the 13th-15th best player at Bayern.
Not that these comparisons actually work but I'd have Mata, Herrera, De Gea, Smalling, Shaw, Martial, probably Schweinsteiger (if not Schneiderlin) and I don't think RB is 100% locked. The areas that they'd have players get into our team are the exaxt areas that we'll be looking to improve upon with players similar to their best players (the likes of Reus and Aubameyang).
For instance if Rooneys legs hadn't dropped off and Di Maria performed like we thought he would, we might not see any of their front 6. These are now two priorities for us because of the aforementioned failures.
Not necessarily. It's well possible that United wanted to loan him out no matter what and in the end had to accept that they couldn't force him to a club of their liking. The reason why I think so is how things developed over the summer:
IIRC, first rumors that United wanted to send Januzaj on loan appeared some time in July or early August. They came from different sources, not just quoted or recycled ones, and included a number of different clubs from different leagues. I'm therefore inclined to believe that United had the firm intention to loan him out but not to sell him. I also recall some statements (from Belgian media? Don't know exactly, sorry.) that Januzaj refused interested EPL clubs. United cannot force Januzaj to a club he doesn't want to be loaned to.
IIRC, the first rumor in Gemany appeared on Sky Germany, saying United wants to loan him out but Dortmund would not be interested without some sort of buying option. Juventus was mentioned as an alternative. This was about 2 weeks before deadline day.
Then, things went quiet RE: Januzaj and Dortmund, and we were linked to Yarmolenko (vaguely confirmed by Thomas Tuchel). When this transfer didn't come to fruition, all of a sudden the loan of Januzaj was announced.
I can understand what you're saying but wouldn't agree. Sphaero explained it much better than I could do it in his post above where he addressed the "Rooney, Martial, Mata would be 1st teamers at Dortmund".
Fair enough. My belief is that if the options were Dortmunds bench or ours Van Gaal would've just have told him to stay put. It's not as if the £1m in salary would concern us.
Plus I'd imagine there'd be a queue of German mid table clubs wanting to sign him for such a small cost so I can't imagine it was Dortmund or nothing.
If LvG planned without him for this season, why should he have stayed him put. He's even quoted that a move will be beneficial for development of his personality.
It's surely not about the money, which is why I haven't implied this could have played any role.
That's irrelevant if Januzaj wasn't interested in joining them. He was apparently not interested in playing for mid-table EPL clubs; why should this be different with mid-table German clubs.
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You can just sense he's gonna get sold and be a star somewhere else. Its heading in that direction in a jiffy. Van Gaal has never looked like he rates him at all and he still has next season to go. Reckon if Janu angled for a move we'd let him go. If I was a club like spurs I'd be licking my lips. This is just gonna be a massive mistake like the Pogba saga.
You are overreacting IMO, LvG has already said he believes in the quality of Januzaj and he has played a good amount of minutes under him so there shouldn't be any reason to panic.
He is still only 20 which many of us seem to forget, not alot of youngsters are playing reguarly for big clubs at that age.
Kind of backs up what the fanzines are saying about the problem LvG and Giggs have with him. Giggs and Rio apparently gave him a bit of a lecture about his attitude and arrogance in the Moyes season*
*Must trademark that. The Moyes season
Kicker is one out of two rather reliable sources regarding Dortmund news.
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