Wrong. He said that it doesn’t matter now as it’s in the past. Which is true - you can only make good decisions in the present and future as opposed to dreaming of reversing the past and crying over spilt milk. Thankfully the club spent last season improving our situation with quality signings and an excellent manager instead of harping on about whatever happened before.
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Well I feel like we're splitting hairs. What's your contention, that the past doesn't matter? Sancho is still here so of course the circumstances which brought him here are still relevant. His wages are relevant. If you want to give a 70mil signing who has underwhelmed a free pass, that's fine. I know I was very disappointed when Pepe for us flopped.
Tbf United have always spent money; there's no debate about that. The issue has been that you have overpaid for a lot of players and have the second highest wage bill in the league. That's despite not being serious title challengers in a long time and not winning many trophies in recent years. Yes ETH looks to be changing that and no doubt you're heading in the right direction. Seems you've finally got the right manager. But of course he's only half the equation and we'll have to wait and see about your ownership.
What’s your contention? That we relive the past needlessly and harp on about it instead of focusing on the here, now and the future. In which case let’s take a deep dive into the abysmal last 20 years of Arsenal football club which has been marred by incompetence, a lack of ambition and mediocrity. Even if you win the league this year it doesn’t guarantee you won’t experience that for the next 20 and also remain insignificant on the European stage which you’ve always been to be fair.
I mean either you want to constructively discuss things or become a boring one note wum who has nothing better to do with his / her time than criticise the past actions of a club he doesn’t even support. But if we’re actually being honest and taking peoples word for what they are - that posters comments were spot on in that we agreed to pay an enormous sum for Sancho whether it be wages or fees and have since got a new manager and revised the structure above him which is subject to a further overhaul based on new ownership. We can also go into the signing of Maguire and Awb or tons of poor additions arsenal have made all of which were obviously a deterrent to success, but the poster you replied to is talking things as they are / can be whereas you keep wanting to drag him back.
I think you've really misrepresented or misunderstood my meaning, but fair enough. At the core, my point was that you can't really assess Sancho (or any player) without taking account his fee and wages. I don't think that's being too focused on the past. His wages IMO are what has probably forced ETH to make concessions for him that he probably wouldn't make for anyone else. I don't imagine inexplicably giving a player 2-3 months away from the squad is something he'd normally do. I had hoped we'd get some reinvigorated player on his return but overall it looks more of the same. I wonder how ETH would assess him so far considering he gave him a mid season holiday. I'm sure he'd have hoped for more. What is your assessment of Sancho so far since his return?
And there's no need to get personal. But seeing as you brought it there, the reason I'm on a United forum isn't because I have "nothing better to do with my time". Though I work from home and find the Caf a good way to procrastinate.
I have a weird kind of like/hate relationship with United. I grew up watching United as my brothers supported you. We grew up in the height of Fergie v Wenger late 90s-early noughties. So I actually sometimes find myself rooting for you, as long as it's not to the detriment of Arsenal, which is rarely the case. And FYI I am female, my user name isn't some sort of trick.
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Yeah he does and wouldn't it be good if he does that. It would mean he's hitting high performance
He looks so much better as a central forward false 9 who is doing tricks to stop, halt and trip the opposition defence than a CAM or winger who has to directly take on opposition to get past or make creative passes.
His goal vs Liverpool and the willian handball shows how deadly he can be when he is the final guy on the ball rather than one of the first guy on the ball
He then becomes the last guy that either has to finish a move - or be the guy who makes the last pass to other forwards.
His goal vs Liverpool and the willian handball shows how deadly he can be when he is the final guy on the ball rather than one of the first guy on the ball
He then becomes the last guy that either has to finish a move - or be the guy who makes the last pass to other forwards.
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I think what he meant was that to take someone's spot, he has to up his level quite substantially and show some consistency.
I'm not so sure about that. Perhaps my biggest gripe about him is that he often cannot impose himself on games and cracks under the pressure. As a false 9, he would constantly have 2-3 players around him and be more central. He will have to take on opposition more directly in tight spaces. He would also need to up his stamina if he's going to be interchanging all over the pitch, which is a big weakness of his.
Well that’s why I see it.
I find him quite a calm and composed player which actually makes him easier to read as a winger because he shows no tenacity.
As a false 9 he plays just deep off the central defenders where the defenders will be coming out of position to take the ball away from him.
At that point he doesn’t have to show any tenacity or speed, just be calm and composed to trick the defender ( he has done this against Liverpool, Leicester and Fulham) and just focus on the final finish or pass - which is what he always did in the Bundesliga.
He never made the pre- assist to assist to assist, he always made the final assist and finish - that’s what made him so good in the Bundesliga with ridiculous stats because he would routinely break the high line and make the last calm and composed pass or finish.
In the PL the high line is not there, the closest thing to that is playing as a false 9 and let the defence come forward to get the ball off you.
Then he has to make the final pass, run to beat the higher line caused by the pressing central defenders or make the final shot himself.
Rashford - Greenwood
Sancho
Sancho as a hybrid CF/False 9 is the only future I see for him here playing between two deadly inverted forwards.
He is not good enough or creative enough to play as a CAM from deep and he is not good enough as a winger because he can’t take on his fullback.
Has he ever played false 9 before? This is probably off topic but Greenwood? You think he'll play for you again?
Yeah I think he will.
He has by law found not guilty and if the manager didn’t want him then he would have already been told to F off and find another club.
There is no reason to keep someone when you don’t like a persons action unless he has been proven to the clubs eyes as not an unlawful person - then as seen in recent pictures has been reintroduced to the club and training.
One of the main reasons I see Sancho as a False 9 is primarily because of Tadic at Ajax.
He was used as a creative player out wide (what I think Ten Hag tried to do with Sancho at LW/LAM), as a CAM (as we have seen with Sancho this season) but also being played as a False 9 - which is the last spot Sancho has been yet to be used at.
I’m someone who never really rated Sancho at Dortmund but now that he is ours - the only position I can see him having some sort of positive ability is as a false 9 & I hope it happens if Ten Hag treats him like his United version of Tadic - LAM/LW, CAM and False 9.
I think it depends on the perspective of the analysis.I think you've really misrepresented or misunderstood my meaning, but fair enough. At the core, my point was that you can't really assess Sancho (or any player) without taking account his fee and wages. I don't think that's being too focused on the past. His wages IMO are what has probably forced ETH to make concessions for him that he probably wouldn't make for anyone else. I don't imagine inexplicably giving a player 2-3 months away from the squad is something he'd normally do. I had hoped we'd get some reinvigorated player on his return but overall it looks more of the same. I wonder how ETH would assess him so far considering he gave him a mid season holiday. I'm sure he'd have hoped for more. What is your assessment of Sancho so far since his return?
And there's no need to get personal. But seeing as you brought it there, the reason I'm on a United forum isn't because I have "nothing better to do with my time". Though I work from home and find the Caf a good way to procrastinate.
I have a weird kind of like/hate relationship with United. I grew up watching United as my brothers supported you. We grew up in the height of Fergie v Wenger late 90s-early noughties. So I actually sometimes find myself rooting for you, as long as it's not to the detriment of Arsenal, which is rarely the case. And FYI I am female, my user name isn't some sort of trick.
- If you’re looking at forming an opinion on the quality / correctness of the decision made in 2020 or whatever it was, to sign Jadon Sancho, then you’d naturally have to consider his performances since then in the context of his wages and transfer (and other variables if any).
- On the other hand, I’m not an expert in the thought process of the manager but as a layman, once you have a player at your club he’s a part of your squad and you treat him on the merits of his performances and the potential he carries with someone of his skill set. So I imagine Ten Hag gave him the time off either due to having a high regard for his natural talent and / or believing that to be the best way to revitalise the player rather than his fee. That’s why he had no hesitation in dropping Ronaldo - as he was first a footballing liability and later a commercial asset.
My bad if my post came across as personal in nature. This thread does have a lot of needle for no apparent reason. I for one would definitely prefer (not like it mind you) an Arsenal title win. Your fan have been starved for long enough and more importantly it stops City from matching our three in a row/ historic Treble.
Next season will define him, because he owes us big time. And I'm not seeing what he is doing... I don't know where to play him, and that's something he needs to solve. What is he offering Man Utd? Goals? Power? Pace? Consistency? Ball retention? Leadership? Assists?
He seems a little lost and it's clear that ETH and his coaching staff are trying to find a space for him, but I would like to see Sancho define himself, and make a statement. Like Marcus Rashford. Like Luke Shaw. Like Casimero. Like Varane. Like Martinez etc...
He's not a vulnerable child, if he is, he needs to get away from Old Trafford.
He seems a little lost and it's clear that ETH and his coaching staff are trying to find a space for him, but I would like to see Sancho define himself, and make a statement. Like Marcus Rashford. Like Luke Shaw. Like Casimero. Like Varane. Like Martinez etc...
He's not a vulnerable child, if he is, he needs to get away from Old Trafford.
I think this is probably the glaring issue - he doesn't seem to have a clear spot in the squad. The managers he's had at United seem to think he is best on the LW, but he hasn't been able to nail down a starting spot. And he's obviously not going to bench Rashford any time soon.
Next season will be make or break for him, it'll be his 3rd year at the club and while he's still obviously very young if he hasn't done in after 3 years it's hard to imagine he ever will
He's got all stacked against him though because he's obviously behind Rashford but on this seasons form probably behind Garnacho as well (and also behind Antony on the other wing)
Fair but don't forget that this guy is a charlatan.
He's not a 'statsman'. He cherry-picks stats to fit into a narrative.
The club seem very keen to make public their support of him, latest article to pop up is "in support of Sancho" and there's an article about how he's improving on the website (not sure if same one)
I think what we've seen so far from him is what we're going to get. Some nice footwork and tidy passes and a few goals, but nothing too exciting.
Another poor signing from Ole.
Maguire, AWB, Sancho and DvdB adds up to 240+m.
What is (was) actually wrong with him?
I agree and think one more season is absolutely fair for him and from the club
It's implied he had some type of mental health problem like depression or lack of confidence maybe. We may never know unless he does an interview
I really hope we persist with this guy and remain patient. One of the best players of his generation and you see him take a touch, make a pass or shows composure during games that’s just different. People underestimate the effect environment can have on players especially one that experienced emotional turbulence like Sancho did for 2 years. ( similar to Rashford I believe) I genuinely believe once we characterise our system, ie high tempo one touch aggressive football he will flourish with the confidence a team playing like this will bring.
Having watched quite a few of his Dortmund games, it feels like the 'intentionality' to make things happen has gone missing. In a yellow shirt, he'd take the ball and immediately decide to take someone on, or which passes to pick to take play further and move accordingly. Even with his movement, he was a split second ahead of defenders - he'd anticipate things faster and get there first.
He's a split second late to everything, now, by the looks of it. And he's unsure of what to do once he has the ball - the 'intentionality' or clarity of thought seems missing. All the other attributes seem intact - but without these he is a slow, pnderous, ineffective shadow of the player he was.
Because this seems mental more than physical, hope EtH can coach it out and we see the clear potential the man has being put to use.
He's a split second late to everything, now, by the looks of it. And he's unsure of what to do once he has the ball - the 'intentionality' or clarity of thought seems missing. All the other attributes seem intact - but without these he is a slow, pnderous, ineffective shadow of the player he was.
Because this seems mental more than physical, hope EtH can coach it out and we see the clear potential the man has being put to use.
To me, that sounds more like that the league is just a bit too quick and high pressured and it's not affording him the time.
I mean I could probably play like Messi if the opposite side were all wearing ankle weights!
I’d def agree that some players are more intuitive than others and I’d put Sancho in that category. As has been mentioned he was at his best in a fluid Dortmund team with players around him on the same wavelength. It was similar for him in the England youth teams. He has players like this in Rashford and Martial but they are yet to play consistently together. Hopefully when we have that central figurehead attacker chemistry will develop in time.
Impressive that despite having a mediocre season, he is still showing some great numbers in his underlying stats. Basically the more we give him the ball, and we will get more shots off. He's topping the league in that. Not a fluke. It's something he's always done. Good decision making and quick thinking in attack. Just needs to show more confidence/get more involved and tighten up some other aspects of his game.
I suppose we have no other choice but to be optimistic and clutch any available straw at this point! I don't know what else we're to do with him. If he got involved more that would be the start of it. Needs to be more demanding of himself and others. No point in having technical quality or creativity if you get the ball 10 times a game.
Echoing the above — Sancho will always look good in the “underlying stats” because he’s a technically gifted and very smart player with the ball, for the most part. The “surface level” stats won’t come until he actually plays with some intensity and application, though.
That has never been implied by anyone in the know. There is some weird group of fans that want that to be the case, but they invented it in their heads, there is nothing to suggest that's the case.
There's no doubt that Sancho has underperformed and delivered nothing close to what his transfer fee and wages warrant. But anyone who watches him closely sees a proper footballer not far from becoming the player we expected on day one.
Which one is it, he's underperformed and delivered nothing close to what his fee and wages warrants or he's not far from becoming what we expected?
I don't really see how those statements are compatible. If the "signs" were so obvious that anyone can spot them, then by extension they should be fairly clear and the fact many of us aren't seeing that and the fact the manager saw fit to send him packing to Holland runs completely counter to the idea.
We're all watching, he's just not doing much showing. I don't think there are subtle mysteries to be unravelled, he's just not played well enough in general and is a long way off it.
He lacks intensity and it doesn't really matter how much talent someone has if intensity is lacking it's a compromise that's too heavy of a burden. Maybe with more additions and playing through the middle as a 10 it could work out for him but I think Antony shows more promise and Garnacho is the more daring player.
I still think that the best United have looked this season was Sancho, Rashford, Antony upfront. But oftentimes in those games when Jaden was in possession of the ball it always felt like he was at 50% compared to the other players.
I still think that the best United have looked this season was Sancho, Rashford, Antony upfront. But oftentimes in those games when Jaden was in possession of the ball it always felt like he was at 50% compared to the other players.
I think we can all see the reality that Sancho has so far shown his talent in fits and starts. However I’m one of those ‘weird’ fans who believe that there are other variables in a player performing than just talent alone. Although nothing has been confirmed we can perhaps surmise certain factors. Protracted transfer, coming to a divided team, failure in a major final and racial abuse on top of other factors I’m sure can have an affect on an individual. Well paid or not. I’m sure Jadon isn’t the only one and I’m sure some handle these things better, but as is life. I’d rather remain optimistic, especially in relation to a positive season.
I’m of the opinion he’s just turned 23 and is super talented but we’ve only seen glimpses in a United shirt. My view is he needs to trusted and believed in. We will see much better performances later this season and next season as he feels he’s more appreciated by fans and coaches.
He’s not the quickest yes but he’s quick enough, he’s a playmaker and we need to dominate teams more and give him the ball , also think he’s much better with an overlapping right back or left back as he drifts in and becomes a second inverted number 10. Let’s give him the rest of this season and next one to see whether mentally he can handle being a united player.
He’s not the quickest yes but he’s quick enough, he’s a playmaker and we need to dominate teams more and give him the ball , also think he’s much better with an overlapping right back or left back as he drifts in and becomes a second inverted number 10. Let’s give him the rest of this season and next one to see whether mentally he can handle being a united player.
I know what you mean but tbf I think it's got some logic. We're dealing with prime athletes here and the margins between them all, from top to bottom of the league, is tiny when all's said and done.
Take a 100m sprinter, comes in 4th or 5th outside the medals in the Olympics but the gaps are tiny. He manages to step up and eke out the maximum performance and it's only maybe milliseconds but it's changed his position to medal winner or outright champion.
I think that's also why selecting players is much more difficult than track and field - football is the 'alpha' or skill while sprinting say, is the 'beta' of pure athletic power.
It can also make it frustrating when we've got a talent like Jadon but if the club's got his back, I'm in full support.
The special training in Netherlands at that time of year seemed very unorthodox and I'm trying to think of a player who we've had that strategy for in the past and it wasn't a prelude to getting the boot.
It's certainly not a warm weather regime that's for sure and seems more like the boss was really trying to look out for Sancho with all that given his connections there and just stonefacing the press.
But you are also right though, we're not seeing enough of it from him yet but the impression I get of EtH is that he's probably a very clear explainer of what he wants and once he's seen Jadon attain that baseline level he'll say "right, that's what I need from you now at least, you've proven you can do it, so do it".
He'll have to pull his finger out though because his time off and other team issues has cast light on quite a few of the other lads who aren't going to sit back and let Sancho stroll into the team if there's regular places up for grabs.
If the margins were tiny in reality rather than on paper or based on Bundesliga form it would be a more compelling argument. Or if he put in 90 minute performances occasionally to suggest he is close, that would be akin to your sprinter eeking out the milliseconds, we'd only need to eek out consistency across game time. But compared to top wide forwards in the league the margins do not appear to be tiny.
The problem with Jadon is it's not just one thing, it's many things that are lacking. Which is why I think the manager took that drastic step. He realised everything so far isn't working and there's a lot to work on, so doing things conventionally wasn't the option. I don't believe he would do that for a few technical disciplines, or even a single physical or mental component that he could work on himself. So even this suggests to me that the manager believed it wasn't about margins.
My biggest issue is it's taken him this long to even meet the basic criteria of being a physically robust, Man Utd player. If your sprinter wasn't fit enough to run the distance, I think you'd question his mentality and approach to his discipline and on that point it isn't about margins it's about the basics. That's Jadon, he has a habit of getting subbed, and he rarely produces across a full game as evidence of this flaw. Maybe he worked on this in his camp, but it's been stop start since then and hard to judge. I think this acceptance of his own mediocre physical standards is probably related to the passivity he shows on the pitch, it seems to be part of his character that he has to be pushed and cajoled.
Then we get into the footballing side and that's your sprinter having to work on his gait, his rhythm, whatever they work on - I've no idea about sprinting. On this point I think most of us have a desperation about wanting him to do well, because we all like to see an aesthetically pleasing, technical player. Kagawa and Mkhitaryan got the same treatment. We looked for it and looked for it until it was no longer tenable to support the idea they'd improve. I think Sancho is approaching that crossover point. At this point it's probably 50/50 as to whether he goes the same way as them, and I'd say he'll probably get next season to display which it will be.
Agreed. IMO it's unthinkable that a manager would decide to be without a player for a couple of months if he wasn't injured. The fact that ETH took him out of the team for so long indicates a pretty serious issue. So far, dont think it's had the desired effect but I suppose we can probably write off this season for Jadon.
It's frustrating but, just to echo a lot of the thoughts here, he really does have great technical ability and is a very smart player with the ball. On the flip side he doesn't appear to be engaged and looks very passive even in one-on-one duels. Does he have a mentality issue or does he have a physicality issue? or both? and can either be rectified?
He won't be sold this summer, but if we see much of the same next year then he's probably on the outs.
He won't be sold this summer, but if we see much of the same next year then he's probably on the outs.
Being realistic who is going to buy him even if we did say he could go? He's on stupid wages, looks a lot slower than he once was and has really struggled to beat fullbacks in this league.
I don't hold out any hope he's going to come good but we have to hope he will do because I don't see any club coming in to take him off our hands.
I don't hold out any hope he's going to come good but we have to hope he will do because I don't see any club coming in to take him off our hands.
I think the problem is both physical and mental with Sancho, and ATM it's hard to see him improving both areas enough to make it at this level. Technical ability means nothing if you can't hack the physical aspect of the game and can't perform under pressure. He is probably one of the easiest wide forwards for defenders to handle. He seems to not have the mentality of an elite athlete.
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