He lacks the athleticism to consistently play out wide.He'd be better used as #10 but don't think that'll happen here anytime soon.
25
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 41
- Goals
- 7
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 0
- Status
But it is no outlier. If anything, those are outliers towards the bottom. Or do you think the data is wrong?
Is Zehner actually arguing that he is?
You seem to be arguing a non point here, no where have I said the data is wrong.
Sancho is not Uniteds best attacker one on one, no matter what statistical observations point to, this was the statement I made. Its clear what I am saying here, if you believe he is then thats your porogative.
Yeah, generally backs up my impression as well. I think people let themselves be fooled by his body language and style. He's lacking directness and purpose in his actions as it seems but not really take ons. Maybe it's also the touches/attempted take ons ratio. Rashford e. g. attempts 4.21 take ons per 90 this season and has 37 touches on average. Sancho attempts less with 4.08 but has 51.2 touches per 90. His higher success ratio still has him come out on top in terms of completed dribbles, though.
I have no idea what Zehner is arguing
Yes, Rashford really is not very successful with his take-ons overall. Still, I do think there's more than blind-spot driven misreading involved here. When Rashford attempts a take-on, it's usually aggressively directed at a key danger area - when he pulls it off, you tend to get a high-quality scoring chance out of it, and his attempts often draw in 2 or 3 defenders which in itself creates a threat. With Sancho, it often seems to be less dangerous areas involved, and more often just a 1-on-1 situation.
As far as I can see, he's arguing that Sancho isn't bad one-on-one. Maybe we get a better discussion if you don't assume without good reason that he's arguing something other than that.
Maybe you shouldn't assume. I'm simply respoding to a poster who quoted me saying "someone suggesting stats make a case for Sancho being United best attacker one-on-one obviously is not understanding stats."
If the poster disagrees with that then I can only assume the reason is they believe the statement to be wrong
I’m not sure if stats would contradict this or not but Sancho seems to be more comfortable taking defenders on in deeper areas of the pitch, where he can use his footwork and body feints to go either side, but in the final third, where there’s normally less space, he seems a lot more hesitant.
That's quite obviously a glaringly tendentious reading, but maybe Zehner can shortcut this for us by clarifying what his argument is?
Yes, that's true. Sancho is usually dribbling in less threatening areas than Rashford who receives more progressive passes. Sancho was always highly involved in the ball progression into the final third or penalty area but he still managed to get into many dangerous situations himself, finishing off an attack he initiated himself. That rarely occurs right now from what I've seen. And that's probably part of the reason why his total number of completed dribbles goes a bit unnoticed.
Whether or not that means he's "better" at them is a question of definiton, if you ask me. I believe that the Sancho we've seen in Dortmund is in general is the best dribbler in your tea, but I understand that people think he hasn't shown that so far. The numbers still speak for themselves but what you said about Rashford's one on ones is a good explanation, IMO. Sancho usually picks his dribbles and then completes them with high probability while Rashford attempts more difficult ones that require more pace and physique. I still believe that the importance of dribbles in tight areas is underestimated. People just love their traditional wingers bursting past their defenders and shoving their bodies between ball and opponent, even if nothing comes off of it. We have some players like this in our team as well (Diaby and Adli, first and foremost) and I'm not a big fan of these kind of dribbles. They look spectacular when they work but I hate it when players lose the ball running down dead ends instead of recycling it. Diaby for instance was lauded as one of the best dribblers in the league but in terms of completed dribbles, he was actually average. Sancho type dribblers come at less opportunity costs, so to speak.
From what I've seen of Sancho he needs to have a runner attacking the inside left channel for him to be effective, there was a period last season Fred was doing that and Sancho was finding him consistently with clever passes.
Its City go to attacking move not surprising since he is a city product.
I think the caf and my favourite wide man at united would be Garnacho due to his direct style, Sancho is not that kind of player but it would'nt hurt him to add more to his game such as improve off the ball in defensive duels and also attempt more adventurous/ longer creative passes and also try to get into the box more especially when the ball is on the opposite flank.
Its City go to attacking move not surprising since he is a city product.
I think the caf and my favourite wide man at united would be Garnacho due to his direct style, Sancho is not that kind of player but it would'nt hurt him to add more to his game such as improve off the ball in defensive duels and also attempt more adventurous/ longer creative passes and also try to get into the box more especially when the ball is on the opposite flank.
Actually, he doesn't. Not in the PL anyway. (Rashford; 7.32/90, Sancho; 8.94). But I guess that goes to the same differences between BL Sancho and PL Sancho that you're pointing out.
Otherwise, interesting points, and I think you're right to point out that there's an aspect here of gains and sacrifices from different styles. Your "traditional wingers" description (which I'd quibble with, because there's nothing traditional about the wide forward cutting in like Rashford does, but anyway) made me think of Garnacho, who's really such a prime example of the pros and cons. Really heavily involved on the ball in and around the box, and also very active in getting the ball into the attacking third, and lots of end product - but it's all about carrying and finishing, not passing - and there's a lot of turnovers resulting. 7.35 take-ons attempted/90, with only 1.99/90 successful.
It's make or break for Sancho next year sadly but he isn't the first and won't be the last big player who mentally can't cope with the pressure of playing for this massive club.
I'd love for him to reproduce the Dortmund form but just don't see it whilst he remains out wide.
I'd love for him to reproduce the Dortmund form but just don't see it whilst he remains out wide.
Interesting sample. What the numbers generally suggest to me, is that:
- Rashford plays a different role than the three others, more strikerlike even when hestarts out wide.
- Garnacho, Antony and Sancho are playing at roughly the same level across these outputs.
- Garnacho and Antony are more effective when we have less possesion, more long range counters. Sancho when we are more established higher up the pitch.
- Sancho is much more precautionary towards turnovers.
- Sancho more often dribbles to pass, the others to shoot.
-Main differences are in terms of style, rather than in terms of effectiveness.
This actually fits well with my judgements, and not so much with my feelings.
My feelings were:
-Sancho doesn’t dribble, and is ineffective around the box
- Garnacho and Rashford are really good at getting past players
-Antony shoots too much
My best thoughts were:
Sancho is probably all right effective at dribbling, but since I have higher expectations, I’m more annoyed when he backs off/is overturned, and when he succeeds it’s less direct results, so a tad less exhilarating.
- Sancho must actually be quite effective shooting, it’s more that whenever he shoots from outside the box, I expect nothing. His goals look less impressive than the others, even if he’s as effective as them in total (bar Rashford).
In toto, I think we have three wide players in Sancho, Garnacho and Antony who all offer something, none of which are quite the level we need to challenge City over a season or win the CL, but all three with potential to improve for various reasons. And we have a wide player that is more a striker really, regardless of starting position. He is at the required level.
- Garnacho’s potential lies in experience, Antony’s potential lies in acclimatisation, and Sancho’s potential in drive and confidence. If we were to sell one now to get a more safe bet in besides Rashford, Sancho is where we’d get the most compared to what we’d lose per now. I am guessing that Ten Hag will want to keep all three and rather improve on striker/no 10 options, because with those three and Rashford, he’s got quite a bit of variety at hand, and chances are that most times at leat a couple of them will be on form. And a preseason will lift all their potentials, most likely.
The full set is in this thread: What sort of attackers do we have? A look at stats | RedCafe.net
What the overall data suggests (and the eye-test too, IMO) is that actually Rashford, Garnacho and Antony are all very direct in their style (low volume of involvement on the ball, more carriers than passers etc), with Sancho having a very different profile to the three others.
Yes, agree to that. And this has at least two edges to it: One, Sancho will often be/look less effective because the team style will be tailored to our main line of threats, suiting the more direct players better. On the other hand, Samcho may be more valuable and less expendable if we want to progress our style, or need to mix it up against different opposition or situations, because what he offers is more in line with a high-up-the-pich, possesion strong approach where full backs use the full pitch and more bodies get in the box regularily.
I don’t think that’s a solution to the actual problem.
Well I think the mentality/depression angle has run it's course now so we are just going to have to judge him purely on what he does in a Utd shirt and stop thinking of what he did at Dortmund and stop giving him leeway based on that
I agree.
Almost 2 seasons here. Second season, no Ronaldo, not much competition on the flanks, both seasons he has not sprung up.
We will possibly have Amad coming back who can play on the right wing. Also have Pellistri and Antony.
With a new striker, Rashford will pick up the left wing.
Not sure how many chances he will get next season.
We will possibly have Amad coming back who can play on the right wing. Also have Pellistri and Antony.
With a new striker, Rashford will pick up the left wing.
Not sure how many chances he will get next season.
You forgot Garnacho
Oh yeah. Next season is make or break for him but with Garnacho and Rashford occupying those spots, he probably will have to move his game to occupy Bruno's position and there also he might not get many chances. Not looking great.
One thing that may work in Sancho's favour is that ETH has played him in 3 positions (RW, LW, 10) this season and has publicly said he can play different positions. Rashford has been either LW or ST, Antony just RW and Garnacho just LW. At most I imagine we'll sign a striker, recall Amad and get rid of Weghorst, Elanga and Pellestri (on loan). I think he'll get enough opportunities, it's just whether he takes them.
Brighton 1:0 Man Utd
You'd never have known he came on tonight.
I forgot this kid actually came on ? Did he even touch the ball ?
We paid 70m for this kid, 70m for Antony and from what I remember 50m for Martial ?
Can you actually believe this ? Combined 190m for these 3 kids.
We paid 70m for this kid, 70m for Antony and from what I remember 50m for Martial ?
Can you actually believe this ? Combined 190m for these 3 kids.
I just completely forgot he was on.Makes Sanchez look like a successful signing. Never seen anyone as feeble as this player in the PL.
Hard to blame him, he played 2 nice passes and then we went into our shell in the last 10 minutes.
Was actually going to ask did he touch the ball?
He tried as hard as possible not too.
He was brought in too late to change anything and everyone was already playing scared football. He did ok, nothing less. There were bigger disappointments today.
Get rid. Please. Before his value vanishes completely.
Didn't notice him come on, forgot he was playing, don't remember actually even looking at the ball - let alone touching it.
Has a great career ahead of him in the SAS. He's great at being invisible.
Has a great career ahead of him in the SAS. He's great at being invisible.
Super, Anonymous, Sancho
His commitment to 50/50's I have no faith in, I think my son would win a 50/50 against him.
I can't begin to tell you how disappointing it is.
I had such high hopes for him. Thought he looked great at Dortmund and we were getting a potentially world class talent.
But the lad just hasn't got it. He's a lazy dud. It's bloody tragic how we manage to sign so many mentally weak players
I had such high hopes for him. Thought he looked great at Dortmund and we were getting a potentially world class talent.
But the lad just hasn't got it. He's a lazy dud. It's bloody tragic how we manage to sign so many mentally weak players
People here are just venting their frustrations onto him for justified reasons, albeit unjustified in regards to this game.
No excuses left for him. He even got a couple of months off to train on his own. A huge pass to any professional player. Its best for his own career that he leaves but I doubt he will get big wages anywhere else.
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