Of course, but also these rotations were radical and against good teams (we managed to destroy Leverkusen with Moyes and a weak team - Giggs-Jones midfield). It should be possible for the teams I have mentioned with a less roation, but still rotation to beat lesser oponents. It's not like every team is Bayern, or BVB from 2 years ago, because these teams are something you don't really see a lot, especialy not in EL.
Italy vs England vs Germany (UEFA Coefficients Race)
- Thread starter Mrs Smoker
- Start date
Of course, but also these rotations were radical and against good teams (we managed to destroy Leverkusen with Moyes and a weak team - Giggs-Jones midfield). It should be possible for the teams I have mentioned with a less roation, but still rotation to beat lesser oponents. It's not like every team is Bayern, or BVB from 2 years ago, because these teams are something you don't really see a lot, especialy not in EL.
So you guys don't feel bad about PL teams don't giving a shit to EL, Sporting of Portugal is doing the same, after they got knocked out from CL they play with subs, league is the priority.
A lot of teams do that, it's not exclusive to the PL. Dortmund rests a lot of players today, who are regulars and not even in the squad against PAOK. Villarreal played with 9 new players in comparison to their La Liga game against Rapid Vienna and they deserved the loss for it.
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The whole 'English teams don't give a shit abouth the EL' is a myth anyway. Everton or Swansea went past the group stage when they surprisingly qualified a while ago, Tottenham always makes it into the KO stages as well. Spurs are getting blamed when they rest players in a group stage game against a team from azerbaijan or whatever yet this is exactly what all the teams from big leagues (spanish, portuguese, german, italian) teams do. Tottenham went out against Fiorentina or Benfica in the previous years and not because they didn't care - these are simply better or at least equal teams.
The people who complain about 'teams not caring about the EL' are simply underestimating the competitiveness of the EL after the group stages. PL teams in the EL have done no worse than the PL teams in the CL, the league as a whole has declined, it's not some kind of mentality problem.
But this myth will get repeated on this forum over and over again (same with the 'the competitiveness of the PL is the reason why PL teams faile in europe or the missing winter break stuff), so its a bit tedious to argue against it all the time.
The people who complain about 'teams not caring about the EL' are simply underestimating the competitiveness of the EL after the group stages. PL teams in the EL have done no worse than the PL teams in the CL, the league as a whole has declined, it's not some kind of mentality problem.
But this myth will get repeated on this forum over and over again (same with the 'the competitiveness of the PL is the reason why PL teams faile in europe or the missing winter break stuff), so its a bit tedious to argue against it all the time.
So your argument is essentially that you're right because you'd be better at running a football club and making these decisions than the people at every single English Europa League club? They're all just wrong, and you know better.
Ok, I'll keep that in mind.
No, but we're not talking about a one-off bad choice here. Almost every English club takes the EL very lightly, every time. When a group of people who are probably on average well qualified to do their jobs all look at a situation and come to the same conclusion again and again, there's a good reason for that conclusion. They are the ones who know how football clubs work, they are the ones who know the financial ins and outs, they are the ones who hear what their managers really think about their chances in domestic and European competitions... and they almost always decide to prioritise domestic football.
There are some convincing points on both sides of the argument, but the fact that the experts always go the same way is hard to ignore.
It's also a much more plausible explanation for why English teams in particular don't take the competition as seriously as clubs from most other countries than 'English directors and managers are just more stupid than everyone else.' The PL is drowning in cash at the moment, so the imbalance between the risk/reward ratio of domestic football and the Europa League is much bigger in England than anywhere else. That also explains why of all the major leagues the Spanish teams seem to take it most seriously of all, because the Spanish league arguably offers the worst risk/reward ratio, the worst chance for a EL-level team to earn any decent money through league success.
Yeah i remember that game. Was rooting for Spurs obviously. They really went for it in the tie (i even remember some handbags between Jorge Jesus and Tim Sherwood). The honest reality was that Benfica was the superior team. In fact it was Benfica that rested some starters (about 5 of them), namely Lima, Rodrigo, Enzo Perez, Gaitán and Markovic.
It depends on the priorities and the circunstancies of the given season. Usually Sporting takes the EL seriously but this year, we are really having a go at the championship, so we play subs for the EL. But if we make it past group stages, i think Jorge Jesus will try to reach the final like at Benfica.
It wouldn't be the first time that a country/league totally ignores deeper lying issues for years until it's way too late and a complete rebuild has to happen with a total change in the mindset. Actually, I'd say it happens from time to time in all leagues all over the world, which leads to the cycles of dominance from different countries both in club and in international football we've seen over the last decades.
It might be true that if we only look at the financial gain in one season, there isn't much money to be made in the Europa League. That doesn't mean that treating it disrespectful over several years won't have negative effects longterm, for the clubs acting like that and for the league overall.
Either way, it's just sad if football fans aren't furious about it and start worrying more about the owners, managers and players earning even more money, even though they can't be arsed to try and win a trophy. It almost sounds as if the Deloitte Football Money League table is more exciting than winning something. I wonder if Tottenham fans celebrate a top 15 finish in the upcoming money league as much as Sevilla fans celebrated the Europa League in the last 2 years.
But again: these are the same guys who have ignored tactical trends for years and who either don't care about youth or are unable to get a decent youth setup going, even though forming their own stars has been a key factor in Barca's and Bayern's success (two out of three clubs at the top for me). All the experts of Italian football didn't seem to care much about the EL either, until they lost their 4th CL spot and well.. suddenly they seemed to care.
It also not like were talking about every PL club, I can understand if a one hit wonder wants to focus on the league, clubs who repeatedly play EL are probably only Liverpool, Tottenham and Everton which is just three clubs - Chelsea also seemed to have taken the EL rather seriously the season they won it.
I don't think that English officials are idiots, but I absolutely think it is possible that their success made them blind towards certain trends.
I really know what you are talking about, but then, why don't they thell their fans we don't wont to play in this competition, don't come and pay money for tickets, or we will not charge you for the tickets?
The football fans don't want their teams loosing against average opponents. At least try your best at the end. Remember the reaction of fans when O'Neil took his junior players to an away game and the fans were really upset about it? The fans should have some say and I am quite sure that they would be more than happy if their teams would play a bigger role in EL.
As I said, I get it when Wigan does it and some other clubs, but there are three clubs who regulary play Europe and they should try a bit more. Maybe the ones at the top ar correct that the squad isn't big enough, but don't you think that in their cases it has to do with wrong transfer policy over years? Yes, the price money isn't great, but with tickets sold playing the semifinal and especially final should bring more money then 3-4 places in the league, plus the exposure they get by playing more European teams.
The one thing were I do support the clubs is the reluctance of the FA to help them with the shedule, which they really should.
I am not sure about the idea behind this table, this doesn't factor in the number of teams from England or Italy that entered European competition
So Italy with 3 wins tonight 
Liverpool and Spurs making it harder for themselves to get CL footy in two years time. Bravo.
Good week for Italy compared to England. Italy clubs won 8 points, which gives Serie A 1.33 points while English clubs won 6 points which gives EPL 0.75 points.
It does. For example, the number of points England has this season (4.375) is just the number of total points they have won (35) divided by the number of teams they started the competition with (8). Same for the other countries.
The main attraction the likes of Spurs, Pool, Everton can offer to foreign signings is the $$$ anyway, I doubt going far in the EL really matters more than a good raise to most players. The other benefits are only if you actually win the EL / make the CL, which is too small a probability for these clubs to stake their league season on it.
Financials matter a lot, especially to English clubs in a time when there is little top English talent coming through and most teams are going to be built through foreign signings. The fans would obviously prefer a good cup run, but the owners have different interests altogether.
Really should have bit more points for CL compared to EL.
You probably meant for the Europa League?
There are advantages of being in CL through bonus points. Each CL team qualifying for group stage gets 4 bonus points to start with and then there is bonus of 5 points each for teams which reach CL R16. So EPL already had more through bonus than Series A and say 3 out of 4 PL clubs qualify R16 and only Juve does for Series A, PL will gain again. There are no such bonuses for Europa.
There is bonus of a point each for a team reaching quarters, semis and finals of both CL and EL later.
What is hurting PL this time along with crappy displays is the points getting divided by 8 when only 6 teams are playing in group stages. For Serie A, 5 teams are earning points and they get divided by 6. At least Southampton should have made it to group stages of EL if not West Ham.
I still think PL will maintain the margin this season over Serie A to get 4 spots in 2017-18 but after that it is a problem. PL had 4 coefficient points on Serie A in 2011-12 which will be out of consideration for next season. At that time last season's 5.5 coefficient points advantage of Serie A will show its true effect. Only way from now on for PL to maintain 4 spots is starting to develop significant lead over Serie A in coefficient points for 2-3 seasons at least.
It is not just because now PL is in trouble but I felt it before too that all 4 top leagues should have 4 spots in CL. Serie A, if it gets back to good days, 2 Milan clubs, Juve, 2 capital clubs plus Napoli and Fiore. One would like to see 4 from this lot in CL. Expect PL to use money power to persuade UEFA to tweak rules this way now
It would just make the comparison between the leagues even more top heavy than it already is. The coefficient gives an overview of how the top teams from each league compare with each other and how the 2nd tier teams compare with each other. Sounds fair. No need to devalue the latter in general. The bonus points already do that to a certain degree, that's more than enough.
The gap between the rich top leagues and the smaller leagues is already way too big anyway. It would be ridiculous if UEFA rewarded the disrespectful behaviour of the super rich clubs towards the Europa League even further. What they should do is scrap the bonus points to make the EL more important, kick the 3rd placed teams from the CL groups out of the EL and share a significant part of the CL tv money with the EL teams, so that the gap between the leagues in Europe maybe starts to decrease and we get back to having great teams from more than just 5 or 6 countries.
This is definitely the best idea. I always thought it was really unfair on the EL teams for CL teams to drop down into the competition in the knock out stages already. Also gives more money to the EL teams which helps then improve more.
The 5 bonus points to reach the final stages of the CLare ok as the Europa League has an extra round in which you can gain 4 or 5 points.
The sensationalist panic surrounding this is mostly created by our own media but ttytt we (the English League clubs) only have ourselves (Manchester United) to blame. It's no surprise that Manchester United's consistency was sorely missed when English clubs had the worst return in recent history and Italian clubs did extremely well.
Take that opposing fans who laughed at our expense … now your club might not be in Europe next season if they reach the magic 4th place in the league at the end of this season because we weren't there last time round to keep the European ranking boat afloat!
Personally I think we'll be fine, but we do need to pull our collective socks up and might even have to start to learn to cheer on other English clubs in Europe, even if they're not us (City aside). We should even be OK if City drop down to the Europa League with Arsenal (as seems probable barring taking at least 4 points from Bayern) this time round and only Chelsea and United go on in the CL.
Basically as long as we stay comfortably ahead of Italy on this seasons rankings (see link below) we "should" be OK: http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/seasoncountry/index.html
(at the moment we are, even after last night)
As the all important last 5 seasons aggregate table shows, Italy's one good season was last time out (19 to our pathetic 13.5), other than that we've beaten them by at least 2 points every previous season, and, so as long as we remain comfortably above them this season* (3 points should be enough) all should be OK.
http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html
*Needless to say, as these stats are run over 5 seasons, staying in front of Italy now becomes important for the next 4 seasons also.
It would be very hard to overturn the coefficient if they manage to take 3rd place and get their extra team at the cost of ours. As much as 5 seasons unfortunately. It took the German's ages to nudge the Italians out of 3rd place when they only had 3 to Italy's 4 – as consistency of progress across all teams becomes paramount and one bad season for any one team really hurts the average.
Take that opposing fans who laughed at our expense … now your club might not be in Europe next season if they reach the magic 4th place in the league at the end of this season because we weren't there last time round to keep the European ranking boat afloat!
Personally I think we'll be fine, but we do need to pull our collective socks up and might even have to start to learn to cheer on other English clubs in Europe, even if they're not us (City aside). We should even be OK if City drop down to the Europa League with Arsenal (as seems probable barring taking at least 4 points from Bayern) this time round and only Chelsea and United go on in the CL.
Basically as long as we stay comfortably ahead of Italy on this seasons rankings (see link below) we "should" be OK: http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/seasoncountry/index.html
(at the moment we are, even after last night)
As the all important last 5 seasons aggregate table shows, Italy's one good season was last time out (19 to our pathetic 13.5), other than that we've beaten them by at least 2 points every previous season, and, so as long as we remain comfortably above them this season* (3 points should be enough) all should be OK.
http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html
*Needless to say, as these stats are run over 5 seasons, staying in front of Italy now becomes important for the next 4 seasons also.
It would be very hard to overturn the coefficient if they manage to take 3rd place and get their extra team at the cost of ours. As much as 5 seasons unfortunately. It took the German's ages to nudge the Italians out of 3rd place when they only had 3 to Italy's 4 – as consistency of progress across all teams becomes paramount and one bad season for any one team really hurts the average.
The best option is to give 4 places to top 4 leagues in coefficient rankings. Top 4 leagues should really push for that.
If the English get a grip, I don't think that even the 2017/2018 season will be a big problem (the Italians don't seem so strong this season), but the season 2019/2020, when the 5,5 points difference from last season could have a real effect if the English teams don't make enough points during next 2-3 season. The biggest problem is that it seems like there is again more money in Italian football, which will make it a lot harder to make a difference points wise during one season. The best way would be to beat them head to head, but that just doesn't happen.
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I do now yes.
Yes, this. The money absolutely has to be distributed more evenly between the two competitions.
I think that ship has sailed a long time ago, not just because of the particular clubs, but because of the leagues in general. Look at a few examples:
BATE have made it to the group stages of CL four times in the past five years, yet the only player you know from them is probably Hleb.
Basel have been doing very well in Europe (for a Swiss team especially), yet they lose lots of players every year. And not just to top clubs: Schär to Hoffenheim, Frei to Mainz, Stocker to Hertha, Dragovic and Gonzalez (one year signing him, after getting past Liverpool and making it out of the group stages of CL) to Kiev, Sommer and Xhaka to Gladbach...
Zenith are basically spending like an European top club (way more than a normal club could ever expect to get from an EL reform), but even they don't get far and afaik they lost their top striker to WBA
For the Dutch clubs it seems similar, Ajax have one of the biggest names in club football, they did well in the CL, yet they keep losing player after player every year.
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Yup. The domestic league TV money is increasingly like crazy for the top leagues and its just going to keep pulling a few nations further ahead of the rest. It's a sad day when a club with no real ambition like West Ham can poach the players of national champions.
I know that. Doesn't mean that it should be ignored completely. We won't ever get back to where European football was 25 years ago, no doubt. But UEFA should take steps to make it more interesting again.
Didn't UEFA reform the CL quali draws not too long ago, so that now teams who enter the qualification as domestic champions are seperated from the teams who enter the qualification through 2nd to 4th spot?
I'm not even sure how much it would really help with that particular issue if they shift some money from the CL to EL, because while you would help the lesser league teams in the EL you'd also hurt the ones which make it into the CL. I think the second tier teams from the big leagues would benefit the most from it, because it would be easier and more secure (financially) for them to maintain a broad squad and the teams ahead of them would get less money.
Just by qualifying and then reaching KO stage you get extra 9 points. That is the equivalent of winning 4 matches and drawing one.
It isn't exactly fair, but it wasn't supposed to be. It is a system which helps Europa League teams to compete with UCL teams, which is only right IMO.
Germany getting a bit of a seeing to by Premier League clubs thus far..
Our 3rd best team, comfortably beating the Germans best. Standard.
Second best with Chelsea in this form, surely.
Was merely basing it on last seasons table, but I agree with you.
So let me get this straight @Mrs Smoker , today Emgland have earned more points (3) than Italy (1) and Germany (1). 38 so far this year in Europe to the 37 of the German and the 25 of Italy?
You have to divide that figure by the number of teams the country has in European competition.
Eg England is 38/8=4.75.