Still ahead of Italy and I expect Chelsea and us to both top our groups. City will go through as well. The fourth spot won't slip this season imo.
Italy vs England vs Germany (UEFA Coefficients Race)
- Thread starter Mrs Smoker
- Start date
You've done it now! Famous last words.
This does not slip... proceeds to let title slip by actually slipping. Then blames Benitez, Rodgers and the tea lady in his new book.Add that Pulis gif to the story and it's one of my favourites.
You Rob'd it.
I expected both Arsenal and Chelsea to win. Can't believe they fecked it up. Neither Porto nor Olympiacos were great teams.
That squad selection was shit from Mourinho, why wasn't Hazard starting and why was Ivanovic in the squad, let alone captain it?
Arsenal bottled it, as usual. Now they'll win a game in style against Bayern to make it a dramatic and heroic entry into knockout stages, and self-destruct in last sixteen. We've all seen that story.
That squad selection was shit from Mourinho, why wasn't Hazard starting and why was Ivanovic in the squad, let alone captain it?
Arsenal bottled it, as usual. Now they'll win a game in style against Bayern to make it a dramatic and heroic entry into knockout stages, and self-destruct in last sixteen. We've all seen that story.
It's not very likely but far from impossible.
Italy added 19.000 to their country coefficient in the last CL season, England 13.571. Points removed from season 2010/11 are 11.571 for Italy and 18.357 for England.
This put England roughly 3 points ahead of Italy (ENG 62.034, ITA 58.939) before the first match of the current campaign was kicked off; previously ENG was almost 10 points ahead (ENG 80.391, ITA 70.510).
Right now, England acquired 3.625 points, Italy 2.666, mainly thanks to 4 bonus points per team playing the CL group stage (16/8=2 bonus points for ENG; 8/6=1.333 bonus points for Italy).
Not sure if it has been linked but this website is very good. Lots of tables.. Breakdown by club and country with forward looking projections:
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2016.html
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2016.html
We need to convince Rob to put money on Wolfsburg getting a win or draw today.
Via @Jippy from other thread.
11-12 to 15-16 for next season might still be ok for England, but 12-13 to 16-17 looks scary. EDIT: Actually, point wise, 12-13 was better year for England than 11-12. So, nevermind.
11-12 to 15-16 for next season might still be ok for England, but 12-13 to 16-17 looks scary. EDIT: Actually, point wise, 12-13 was better year for England than 11-12. So, nevermind.
All German teams bar Bayern lost Roma lost Juve won so we had 2 winners Italy 1 and Germany 1
One year out of Europe, and look what ye do to the place!
That was to be expected though. By far the toughest matchday for the German teams. Both Wolfsburg and Leverkusen with away games at the clearly strongest teams in their group and no one could expect Gladbach to get a result against City. It's great that both Wolfsburg and Leverkusen are in an excellent position to finish 2nd and have overall played well so far in the CL. It would be nice if Gladbach didn't finish with 0 points, can't really blame them for today's performance. All in all, so far everything is running smoothly. Dortmund and Schalke need to collect points tomorrow, maybe Augsburg can get a good result against Partizan. We can still easily finish this European week with more points than England.Tough luck for German teams this match day!
Am I right in saying, this doesn't affect next season but the season after? If so, that's a shame...
It would be cool if it affected the season currently being played! Liverpool might reach a Europa League final only to find out that winning it would put United in the Champions League! (Or any other rivalry)
It would be cool if it affected the season currently being played! Liverpool might reach a Europa League final only to find out that winning it would put United in the Champions League! (Or any other rivalry)
Dortmund's decision to leave 5 key players at home is a bit worrying in that regard though. They traveled with a B - team to a difficult away game in Greece, which sucks and can easily backfire.
Yeah, I get that and I don't blame them for it. Still easily possible that they'll drop points because of it.
I don't think this will ever make as much difference to how clubs approach the EL as people think. Clubs are businesses, and have to be run pragmatically. The EL is a long, long competition, knockout game after knockout game after knockout game, against the massive pool of decent-level clubs that Europe boasts. Sure, there are minnows, but it's also entirely possible that you end up having to wade through game after game against teams like Athletic, Schalke, Spurs, Monaco, Napoli, Basel, Marseille, Liverpool, Celtic etc etc etc, not to mention the CL dropouts.
Even a team that is comfortably the best in the competition is not a good statistical bet to win it, because there are so many games to get through and so many clubs that, if they turn up, can knock anyone out. For a club in Dortmund's position, if all they wanted was to qualify for the CL, then sacking off the EL and concentrating on getting into the top three in the Bundesliga is a much more sensible approach, because a season-long league is more likely to carry out their quality.
Yes, BVB, but what about teams who have it harder to qualify for CL? Look at the Spanish teams, they know they can't win the league, so they do their best to win the EL. Most English teams know that there is little chance to finish TOP 4, so why not try to win the EL?
Of course, the FA should start helping these teams in giving them more time for rest.
Because whatever your league prospects, and however seriously you take it, it's an incredibly unlikely thing to win. Teams play, what, six group games (including three potentially long-haul away games), then five knockout games including the final. That's a whole lot of league fixtures that you could feck up if you're playing a full team every time to try and win the damn thing. And then all it takes is one off game against Basel or a bad draw so that you have to face Dortmund, Monaco and Bilbao in your run-in, and that effort has been completely wasted.
If you're the guy running the business, it's a very very bad gamble.
For what it's worth, this isn't my opinion - I like that most European teams take the competition quite seriously, and I'd like it if English teams could afford to. But I totally understand why English teams are quite happy to bin the whole thing, because ultimately they make a huge income from any PL success they can achieve, and are unlikely to get anything out of the EL.
Fair enough. As I say above, English teams are making more money than ever from the PL at the moment. Doing well in the PL - even if you're not getting into the top four - is how these clubs continue to be financially viable. By contrast, the EL offers them very little. They're highly unlikely to win however seriously they take it, and they don't make much money, especially from the group stages, because fans just aren't that interested, and the TV companies definitely aren't - EL broadcasting revenues are a tiny fraction of the ones for the CL.
Yeah, but groups should be easy to pass and then they can decide what to do. If they are close to TOP 4, ok than try that, if they are 10 points away from it, but not in a danger of getting relegated, so why not try win the EL. At the end it's easy to decide to drop out, just let the other team win if you have to.
Also, if they continue like this, they will loose the CL place and it will be even harder to qualify for CL.
I understand what you are saying, but teams like Tottenham, Liverpool and Everton should be stable enough to be able to play on two fronts and worrie about getting relegated. I also understood West Ham's stance, but they should have entered the competition at all.
The group stage ends on 10 December. On the 13th December last season, a team 10 points below 4th place would have been in 13th place, 4 points from the relegation zone.
Which is precisely the point. The Premier League is insanely competitive, and stays very tight until quite late on in the season. If you want to do well in the Premier League, the only way is to focus on it, especially for teams without the massive resources of United, City et al. Even if, as you say, the group stage could be won easily, playing a second team, you're then looking at a string of five knockout rounds counting the final - that's nine games where you'll need your best team to win. That's nine weeks of Premier League football potentially fecked up by being tired, injury-stricken and possibly even jet-lagged.
Given the imbalance between the financial resources offered by achievable PL success and achievable EL success, it's obvious why Premier League teams almost unanimously opt not to commit to the European competition.
EDIT: Ultimately, there's no point arguing. We already know I'm right, because the experts at running football clubs and doing what's best for their success - the people running these football clubs - all do what I'm explaining. They're not just pig-headed Anglocentric cavemen. They've done the same maths that I'm doing in these posts, and it only comes out one way. It's not pretty, but that's the situation.
When do the knock-out stages start? That's when the decision is made and not when the groups end and that's actually in february. And you literally could go game by game and decide what to do.
Sorry, but first, with the amount of money they have now there should be enough players in teams like Tottenham, Everton and Liverpool.
And the second important thing for me is, why do they enter the competition at all? If you don't want to play, just don't enter, simple as that. If I remember, the invitation is send to the PL and they can offer the places to anyone, but it is agreed (obviously) to offer it to the team who are placed in certain positions. So teams could reject it and pass to another team who maybe wants to play it.
I know why they do it it doesn't need explaining (I used to explain that 5 years ago), but now it is more an excuse, as they do have enough resources to have a good enough team to fight for TOP 7 and have a good go in EL. We are not talking about Watford, but about clubs like Tottenham, Liverpool and Everton, as I already said.
England shouldn't worry. Roma will feck up as is the tradition
You're not very clear on the regulations are you. Winning the EL gives automatic entry into the CL.
Can anyone confirm this? That would be weird.
Yes it's correct. The UEFA country coefficient determines the number of teams competing in the season after the next, not in the first season after the publication of the ranking. Thus, the rankings at the end of the 2015–16 season determine the team allocation by association in the 2017–18 (not 2016–17). It's done so that each country knows how many CL places they have at the beginning of their league season.
Thanks. Guess it is understandable for all those leagues that start at different dates in year.
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No way. The gap between Augsburg or Mainz to Schalke/Wolfsburg/Leverkusen/Dortmund/Bayern is bigger than the one between Everton or Spurs to Arsenal/City/Chelsea/United. Which is why Spurs actually finished in the top 4 twice in the last 5 years, yet Augsburg/Mainz never did. You could argue that a club like Gladbach is comparable to Spurs. If they play a great season and one or two of the significantly richer teams play a bad season, they have a shot, just like Spurs or Liverpool had one in recent years.
Augsburg and Mainz are much more comparable to for example Southampton. In the Bundesliga you have basically Bayern on their own in the top tier, then Dortmund/Wolfsburg in the 2nd tier from a financial point of view. Followed by Leverkusen and Schalke with Hamburg and Gladbach being sleeping giants with a rich history, who failed to do as well as they should for decades (not true anymore for Gladbach in the last 3 years of course).
Augsburg and Mainz have zero chance to attract players good enough to finish top four. Even last season, when with Dortmund and Schalke two of the big teams had crazy chaotic and truely awful seasons, Augsburg finished 12 points below 4th place. And that was as great a season as Augsburg will ever play.
I agree with @Balu 's comment. Bear in mind that although Schalke and Dortmund both massively failed last BL season, Augsburg finished just 1 point ahead of Schalke and 3 points above of Dortmund. Mainz had 9 points less than Augsburg (8 points less than Schalke, 6 points less than Dortmund). Augsburg has punched above their weight. Competing for a Europa League spot is the most realistic scenario.
No, they don't. They have more resources than they used to, but so do all the PL teams above and below them. If anything the PL is even tougher now. So it's as impossible to split focus and expect to remain competitive in the league as it ever has been.
It's not an excuse. These clubs aren't being run based on excuses, they're being run based on the strategies of people who know what they're doing. And, again there's clearly a reason why every single English club approaches it the same way. If you were right, then someone would be having a crack as you suggest. The proof's in the pudding.
How many players did Tottenham buy after the sale of Bale? The same goes for Liverpool? If that's not enough to have a better, bigger sqad, than it only means they did a really bad job. Other clubs don't have the same resources as they didn't have the extra 60-70-80m pounds for transfers.
The thing with them is that they are not good enough. We would beat WWolfsburg and Schalke with second teams, while English teams often get knocked out against opponets weaker than the mentioned clubs.
Why do you mention over and over again who runs the clubs? The same people have organized a transfer comite or, something like that, which is just stupid, the same people have spend 100m pounds on players and sacked the manager 4 months later, while having huge midfield, average defense.... It's not like their decisions are brilliant.
Who's we?
I would fancy our U15 beating Wolfsburg's main team. After all, yesterday our U18 humiliated their first team.
I was talking about time during SAF (3:1 against Wolfsburg and 4:1 against Schalke), not yesterday and the point was to show that we managed to do that against good teams, so in EL it should be possible for Tottenham, Liverpool and similar clubs to do it against weaker oponents.
The clubs obviously aren't run by idiots, but that doesn't mean that everything they do is perfect.
The EL actually seems like a decent competition nowadays and even though it may not be the most lucrative competition in terms of financials it makes your club more desirable for potential signings, it gives you another opportunity to qualify for the CL, it gives your players experience on an international stage (a lot of teams tend to bottle their first CL season after a time of absence) and it pushes the club in the UEFA ranking, so there is a lot less risk of getting drawn into a group of death once they qualify for the CL.
Comical level of defending in Bundesliga would mean that even United toddlers would score against Wolfsburg.
Different era. You can't compare the PL today to the PL between 06-11, same goes for the Bundesliga. And United's rotation in the CL group stages began to cause problems when the team declined.
I agree that Tottenham and Liverpool should do well in the EL even if they rest a few players and rotate a few squad players into the team though.