Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[That_Bloke]

I don't think that's not the issue. Knowing that type of Israelis, it was more a show of strength on a foreign land, "look at us, pround Israelis", and all that crap.

I get that and that's exactly the problem. I've seen brawls ensue between rival football fans for much, much less than that.

How do you think Israeli fans chanting "There's no schools in Gaza because we've killed all the children" or "Death to Arabs" would go in any country where there's a notable arab or muslim community, or simply decent people? In the current context or any context?

Look at how you're reacting to this incident and then imagine how any decent human being would feel when they hear racist lunatics proudly cheer on the death of tens of thousands of children.

Under normal circumstances, Maccabi Tel Aviv would've been banned for a very, very long time, with a hefty fine and their ultras would never see Amsterdam or any other country again. Feck this kind of fans sideways.

This is well beyond football banter and national pride, no matter how misplaced. It's a testament of a perceived complete impunity and an absolutely rotten way to see the world. I'm truly sorry for any Israeli football fan who just went to Amsterdam to watch a football match and got caught in the crossfire, and feck the assholes who went on a witch hunt after that.

But this whole anti-semitic pogrom narrative pushed by the media will never stick with me or anyone with more than two brain cells following the conflict.

 

[rotherham_red]

This is frankly a terrible take on how someone may feel scared.

“You shouldn’t feel scared or angry or emotional because someone else has it worse” is an awful take.

Why don't you look at why the question was posed in the first place before you pontificate.

As if thousands of children dying is anywhere near equivalent to an Israeli feeling scared in his bomb shelter.

If that's equivalent for you, then I think that speaks volumes as to your humanity, or lack thereof.

 

[berbatrick]

thread on sky news' coverage of amsterdam. in particular:

 

[Andy_Cole]

thread on sky news' coverage of amsterdam. in particular:

But but but @Amir says it’s all lies!!

I guess bombing hospitals in Gaza was a lie too right @Amir ?

 

[Amir]

Do you have bomb shelters where you are? And do the Palestinian citizens of Israel have them? I'd be much more sympathetic to your view if you had those same issues that they had, but I'm sorry, property damage or "emotional health impacts" are in no way equivalent to F16s raining down hell on refugee tents, or even, a Katyusha hitting a Bedouin village.

It's genuinely a bit mad that someone would be fine with so much death and destruction purely because he's been put at some level of inconvenience, and then expects sympathy for it.

Think there's quite a bit for a therapist to unpack there, but alas, I'm not one.

I do have a safe room in my home. But obviously, I'm not always at home. I've also been outside when there were rockets fired, and just had to hope I'm lucky (or not terribly unlucky).

I can only salute someone who knows that rockets are being fired towards him, but think "that's OK, it's worse for people in Gaza" during the minute he waits to hear the boom or the booms, and hope that even if he is safe, no one he knows will be harmed. Because you know, people were injured and killed by those rockets. In my city as well.

As for others in Israel - Palestenian-Israelis do tend to have less shelters than the jewish population. It's an issue. But also, tons of jewish people do not have shelters either. It's more about the area of the country in which you live.

I'd say that every Israeli could use a therapist. Our reality would hardly be considered normal in large parts of the world. And if people here think that a few over the top words I said in the first few weeks after October 7 are the true reflection of myself - rather than the decades of writing here, or the year that has passed since - well, I'm not bothered. It's their problem.

 

[Amir]

But this whole anti-semitic pogrom narrative pushed by the media will never stick with me or anyone with more than two brain cells following the conflict.

I cringe when I hear Israelis use anti-semitism as an excuse for any criticism or action towards Israel. Being anti-Israeli is completely different, and Israel has earned it.

Maccabi TA fans were assholes. I don't think it justified that sort of violence, but I just hope that as many people who deserved it were the ones beaten. Honestly, I'm in the minority in Israel who aren't really bothered by what happened.

 

[Amir]

But but but @Amir says it’s all lies!!

I guess bombing hospitals in Gaza was a lie too right @Amir ?

Amir doesn't say it's all lies. Amir said and still says that you lied when you said it was ALL about Israelis attacking local arabs. It's wasn't. that's all. I'm not exonorating the Israeli fans because I don't know what each and every one of them did. But it also seems that the Pro-Palestenian attacks were planned, not some sort of relaliation.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Amir doesn't say it's all lies. Amir said and still says that you lied when you said it was ALL about Israelis attacking local arabs. It's wasn't. that's all. I'm not exonorating the Israeli fans because I don't know what each and every one of them did. But it also seems that the Pro-Palestenian attacks were planned, not some sort of relaliation.

Okay I misinterpreted what you said. But I never used the word ALL either so you also misinterpreted. The point I was making in my original post was the biased one sided media.

 

[dumbo]

@Amir whatever you might think of his posts is not Israel's crimes.

He's seen his country and people directly attacked, followed by over a year of reputation damage, condemnation and humiliation.

There are some who will defend the atrocities from afar in other threads and not step foot in here and some who have defended them in here and never come back to answer for themselves.

He has been relatively reasonable most of the time.

You can criticise his posts and i get the frustration we feel, but one poster shouldn't be a lightning rod for all animus towards Israel.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Why don't you look at why the question was posed in the first place before you pontificate.

As if thousands of children dying is anywhere near equivalent to an Israeli feeling scared in his bomb shelter.

If that's equivalent for you, then I think that speaks volumes as to your humanity, or lack thereof.

The question posed was "Why did Amir not feel sympathy for Arab children as rockets were flying over his head?"

Which is a perfectly normal and reasonable expectation. Do you really expect people to think, "Holy shit I'm being bombed but yeah I guess the Palestinian kids have it worse with bigger bombs so I can't feel anger or be scared," during that escapade?

Shit, in 2015 I got deployed to Iraq as part of Operation Shader and I was attached to an American SOF Unit. On a forward observation mission we were hit with mortar fire from a random village and this was the first time I had been in a live combat zone (usually I dealt with AAR's). One of the Americans there called in fire support and a pair of F-18's put a crater in that village.

Let me tell you now, it wasn't until a week after that incident that the thought clocked into my head that "Shit, someone innocent probably died in that strike." At the time, I almost shat myself. I couldn't stop shaking for hours after it all ended and all that was in my head was, "Kill them or I die."

Amir is not an experienced soldier (No, IOF conscription is not the same), nor is he someone who is specifically trained to operate under immense mental distress. I was, and I almost lost it.

So no, what Amir felt is incredibly normal and his reaction and thoughts are very similar to most, on all sides, who go through those kind of things.

 

[berbatrick]

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

@Amir thanks for engaging with so many posts.

What would you say is the state of journalism in Israel right now with respect to the war? What is the reception for any coverage that's hostile to Israel's role in the war, especially in the wake of Gallant being sacked?

 

[Amir]

@Amir thanks for engaging with so many posts.

What would you say is the state of journalism in Israel right now with respect to the war? What is the reception for any coverage that's hostile to Israel's role in the war, especially in the wake of Gallant being sacked?

There's not a whole lot of true journalism regarding the war. It's more patriotism than journalism. In other words, Israeli media tends to support the IDF and its actions (and push back against negative coverage from abroad).

I suppose the funny thing is that the same media is, generally, anti-Netahyahu and his government - the same government that leads the war and can end it. So it's highly critical of Netanyahu, including sacking Galant, his motives, his lack of strategy, his lack of willingless to accept a deal that will bring the hostages back, etc. And yet, the same journalists wouldn't say that the war is just a ploy by Netanyahu to buy time and that it must end now.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

There's not a whole lot of true journalism regarding the war. It's more patriotism than journalism. In other words, Israeli media tends to support the IDF and its actions (and push back against negative coverage from abroad).

I suppose the funny thing is that the same media is, generally, anti-Netahyahu and his government - the same government that leads the war and can end it. So it's highly critical of Netanyahu, including sacking Galant, his motives, his lack of strategy, his lack of willingless to accept a deal that will bring the hostages back, etc. And yet, the same journalists wouldn't say that the war is just a ploy by Netanyahu to buy time and that it must end now.

I can relate to the 'patriotism' aspect of coverage, Indian media has become very jingoistic in nature as well.

Is the state of affairs in Gaza itself given any airtime in terms of extending sympathy towards civilian losses in enemy camp or is the internal messaging the same as the external broadcast (we've asked all civilians to leave North Gaza, everyone left there is now a combatant and therefore an enemy of the state)?

This thread, for instance, has a lot of tweets and posts with pictures and videos showing the scale of human loss in Gaza - women, children, teenagers. Does anything of that sort pop up internally, perhaps to be used as criticism of Netanyahu?

 

[RoadTrip]

Of all the things, to suggest someone is morally corrupt because when they were facing rockets their first thought wasn’t self preservation (no matter how protected) but instead sympathy for children is madness.

Even if Amir’s takes on this topic are garbage (and in my view they are), this line of thought is just ridiculous.

@Amir what I would say though, is that I (perhaps regrettably) don’t feel sympathy for your average football fans of Maccabi who got attacked. Is it wrong? Of course. But you can’t look at this in isolation. The harsh reality is that the actions of the Israeli government and army has meant that Israeli’s as a whole are now at risk globally. It’s not because people hate Jews. But a direct consequence of what the country has done. Whether that’s right or wrong, that’s the reality.

Of course the more sensible of us don’t see it that way. If I saw an Israeli in the street I’m obviously not going to attack him or her and nor do I hate him or her. They’re just someone I see on the street like anyone else. Sadly the world isn’t full of sensible people. People will react. And as wrong as that is, it would be naive of Israel to not realise that that’s a can of worms that they opened.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The question posed was "Why did Amir not feel sympathy for Arab children as rockets were flying over his head?"

Which is a perfectly normal and reasonable expectation. Do you really expect people to think, "Holy shit I'm being bombed but yeah I guess the Palestinian kids have it worse with bigger bombs so I can't feel anger or be scared," during that escapade?

Amir's posts weren't about not feeling sympathy because there were rockets flying over his head. They were about not feeling sympathy for Palestinians because of what happened to Israelis on October 7th. You can find them here, here, here. It's clearly beyond personal safety and going into more nationalistic places.

Is that a crazy thing to think, given the context? Probably not. But you also can't expect not to take some reputational damage from it.

 

[4bars]

Yep.

And October 7 never happened...

I thought you learnt much morw than to say this sentence

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Amir's posts weren't about not feeling sympathy because there were rockets flying over his head. They were about not feeling sympathy for Palestinians because of what happened to Israelis on October 7th. You can find them here, here, here. It's clearly beyond personal safety and going into more nationalistic places.

Is that a crazy thing to think, given the context? Probably not. But you also can't expect not to take some reputational damage from it.

He explicitly writes about his experiences of Rockets going above his head, seeing news of his people dying and having to run for cover.

The first thought that pops to your mind is, "I might die," or "I need to live," and the second thing that pops to your mind is "feck these guys for trying to kill me."

The latter thought persists in most people for many days if not weeks and months, in some servicemen it persists permanently, degrading their mental health and forming a kind of PTSD.

I don't think any one of us has any right to judge how someone in that circumstance reacts in the proceeding hours, days, weeks and even months post such a horrific experience.

This isn't to wipe a clean slate on what the Israel state apparatus have done as a direct retaliation, nor does it justify the genocide in Gaza. But what Amir felt there is exactly what many Gazans/Palestinians feel on a much more regular basis, and why this cycle of violence keeps happening. Bombs/shells/rockets being fired at you leaves a permanent scar. This isn't a competition on who has suffered the most. One whistle of a mortar round hitting 10m away from you can leave you just as mentally detached as being pounded by 2000lb JDAMs day in day out.

It's normal and very human and even the most trained to deal with those situations falter under the mental pressure.

 

[NotThatSoph]

This is frankly a terrible take on how someone may feel scared.

“You shouldn’t feel scared or angry or emotional because someone else has it worse” is an awful take.

The person addressed offer no critical thought about how someone can join an organization like Hezbollah for anything other than evil reasons, even though Hezbollah would never be what it is today if not for the fear Israel's invasion caused, so @Amir should appreciate the unforgiving logic.

 

[berbatrick]

not enough extermination and suffering outside the north for israelis

 

[Amir]

I thought you learnt much morw than to say this sentence

My point was that this user apparently had no problem denying something that happened and invent himself his own little, comfortable reality. And when you do that, you can also deny October 7 ever happened.

What was I supposed to have "learned"?

I find the arrogance of people amazing.

 

[Cheimoon]

I see Israel is claiming there's no famine in northern Gaza.

 

[Amir]

Amir's posts weren't about not feeling sympathy because there were rockets flying over his head. They were about not feeling sympathy for Palestinians because of what happened to Israelis on October 7th. You can find them here, here, here. It's clearly beyond personal safety and going into more nationalistic places.

Is that a crazy thing to think, given the context? Probably not. But you also can't expect not to take some reputational damage from it.

You do realise that during those days everything was mixed together, right? And as if experiencing October 7 and everything that followed during the next few days - the horror stories, the identifying of people murdered - wasn't terrible enough.

Frankly, I honestly don't care what self righteous people think of one's feeling during a situation I doubt they ever experienced.

 

[Amir]

not enough extermination and suffering outside the north for israelis

I'm pretty sure this is months old and this guy doesn't get invited to these shows anymore.

 

[Amir]

I can relate to the 'patriotism' aspect of coverage, Indian media has become very jingoistic in nature as well.

Is the state of affairs in Gaza itself given any airtime in terms of extending sympathy towards civilian losses in enemy camp or is the internal messaging the same as the external broadcast (we've asked all civilians to leave North Gaza, everyone left there is now a combatant and therefore an enemy of the state)?

This thread, for instance, has a lot of tweets and posts with pictures and videos showing the scale of human loss in Gaza - women, children, teenagers. Does anything of that sort pop up internally, perhaps to be used as criticism of Netanyahu?

There's very little shown from Gaza in the mainstream media and certainly no sympathy shown.

A lot of Israelis just don't know what's happening there, which is why they are angry about the accusation of foreign media and other countries regarding Israel's actions in Gaza and sometimes just refuse to believe them, and treat them as hostile.

At times you would get stories in the media from soldiers and people who were in Gaza, some of them talking about stuff like how many weapons they found in civilian houses. Obviously all that coveys the message that the IDF's actions are pure and that the locals are to blame.

Admittedly, I'm not sure how many Israelis would feel sympathy towards Gaza even if they did know fully what's been happening there for 13 months. Racism and hate of arabs is part of our society and something Netanyahu used to get elected time and again.

Media criticism towards Netanyahu tends to focus more on Internal Israeli issues. When it comes to criticism over handling Gaza, it's normally about his refusal to cut a deal to release the hostages - but that focuses on the hostages, not Gaza and its people themselves.

 

[Insanity]

Do we any figures of how many Israelis have been killed since Oct 7th due to this situation - both general citizens and the military?

Are those numbers not alarming enough to generate internal pressure to stop this catastrophe?

 

[Idxomer]

It's gonna be a few concentration camps for the remaining Palestinians separated by multiple zones of interest for the genociders.

 

[Idxomer]

Do we any figures of how many Israelis have been killed since Oct 7th due to this situation - both general citizens and the military?

Are those numbers not alarming enough to generate internal pressure to stop this catastrophe?

The alarming losses are more on the Lebanese front, so they seem more willing to pause there.

Unfortunately, looking for Israel internally to stop its atrocities towards Palestinians has always been a bit of a pointless exercise.

 

[Amir]

Do we any figures of how many Israelis have been killed since Oct 7th due to this situation - both general citizens and the military?

Are those numbers not alarming enough to generate internal pressure to stop this catastrophe?

I think about 500+ soldiers and a few dozen civilians. It depends on how you count the civilians, as some were killed in terror attacks in Israel and not because of rocket fire.

And no, it doesn't really move the needle, unfortunately.

In recent years, Israeli society became very sensitive when it came to soldiers losing their lives - even more than civilians being killed. It was a big part of why Israel withdrew from Lebanon all these years ago. But in this past year, as more and more soldiers died, it's like people became immnune.

I think it started from the shock of October 7, in which so many civilians were murdered, with the military failing to protect them. The war deemed a neccesity and as someone told me, "soldiers die in war". It's been normalized. Now it's another thing mentioned in the news for a few minutes and then you move on to the next thing.

 

[Amir]

Of all the things, to suggest someone is morally corrupt because when they were facing rockets their first thought wasn’t self preservation (no matter how protected) but instead sympathy for children is madness.

Even if Amir’s takes on this topic are garbage (and in my view they are), this line of thought is just ridiculous.

@Amir what I would say though, is that I (perhaps regrettably) don’t feel sympathy for your average football fans of Maccabi who got attacked. Is it wrong? Of course. But you can’t look at this in isolation. The harsh reality is that the actions of the Israeli government and army has meant that Israeli’s as a whole are now at risk globally. It’s not because people hate Jews. But a direct consequence of what the country has done. Whether that’s right or wrong, that’s the reality.

Of course the more sensible of us don’t see it that way. If I saw an Israeli in the street I’m obviously not going to attack him or her and nor do I hate him or her. They’re just someone I see on the street like anyone else. Sadly the world isn’t full of sensible people. People will react. And as wrong as that is, it would be naive of Israel to not realise that that’s a can of worms that they opened.

Yep, right or wrong - it is what it is.

Unfortunately, some of those not-so-sensible people also write in this thread.

My only real point about what happened in Amsterdam is that it appears as though the thing was planned. It was not some sort of spontaneous response to the behaviour of some of the Israeli fans. But people will believe what they want to believe.

 

[2mufc0]

I'm not seeing that tbh. If anything, I'm seeing otherwise disengaged or ambivalent people being at the least confused at the framing, and at most, antagonistic towards it.

The powers that be and the media are peddling this line, but it's been pushed back on relentlessly by average users of social media because it was the latter who picked up on the story far, far earlier than the mainstream media did.

Absolutely, his obliviousness is part of the system and machine that enables them to act with such disregard to the 'other'. If this is the views of a more reasonable Israeli it shows how far they need to go to achieve an equitable solution to the problem.

 

[2mufc0]

but instead sympathy for children is madness.

Nobody is saying that, this is a cop out to make excuses for his abhorrent position.

You can actually do both (be scared but at the same time not wish innocent children be blown to bits in retaliation) .

 

[rotherham_red]

The question posed was "Why did Amir not feel sympathy for Arab children as rockets were flying over his head?"

Which is a perfectly normal and reasonable expectation. Do you really expect people to think, "Holy shit I'm being bombed but yeah I guess the Palestinian kids have it worse with bigger bombs so I can't feel anger or be scared," during that escapade?

Shit, in 2015 I got deployed to Iraq as part of Operation Shader and I was attached to an American SOF Unit. On a forward observation mission we were hit with mortar fire from a random village and this was the first time I had been in a live combat zone (usually I dealt with AAR's). One of the Americans there called in fire support and a pair of F-18's put a crater in that village.

Let me tell you now, it wasn't until a week after that incident that the thought clocked into my head that "Shit, someone innocent probably died in that strike." At the time, I almost shat myself. I couldn't stop shaking for hours after it all ended and all that was in my head was, "Kill them or I die."

Amir is not an experienced soldier (No, IOF conscription is not the same), nor is he someone who is specifically trained to operate under immense mental distress. I was, and I almost lost it.

So no, what Amir felt is incredibly normal and his reaction and thoughts are very similar to most, on all sides, who go through those kind of things.

Again, your post is very illuminating but not for the reasons you'd like to think.

Not considering innocents died in that air strike that your unit had called in until a full week after is sociopathic.

And no, it's not perfectly normal for someone with a normal sense of empathy to put themselves ahead of others who have it worse. You want proof of that? Just search Vivian Silver, who even while she was holed up in the Kibbutz on 10/7 was on a radio phone-in admonishing the hosts for their racist rhetoric towards Palestinians.

 

[Semper Fudge]

 

[Amir]

Nobody is saying that, this is a cop out to make excuses for his abhorrent position.

You can actually do both (be scared but at the same time not wish innocent children be blown to bits in retaliation) .

I cannot remember everything I might have written in the heat of the moment 13 months ago, but I don't think I WISHED for children to be blown up. I just didn't care what happens.

Frankly, if people judge me by a few posts on an internet forum during a short period of absolute turmoil, rather then by everything I've been written for literally decades here prior to that and for a year since - the problem is theirs, not mine.

I just hope for their sakes that they never find themselves in such situations, and also that no one they know will ever be so judgemental toward them.

 

[Amir]

Absolutely, his obliviousness is part of the system and machine that enables them to act with such disregard to the 'other'. If this is the views of a more reasonable Israeli it shows how far they need to go to achieve an equitable solution to the problem.

It might shock you, but no matter how much I try, my first source of news is Israeli media. While I completely disregard some of it and treat other stuff with a pinch of salt, it still tends to be the first thing I see. And it was certainly the first thing I saw when I woke up on Friday.

But nothing I've seen since changed my view: Some of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans behaved in a totally unacceptable manner, and frankly they deserved a good kicking (they always do). But not all of them. And also, the attacks on Israeli fans were pre-planned and not just a case of retaliation for the behaviour of the visitors.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Again, your post is very illuminating but not for the reasons you'd like to think.

Not considering innocents died in that air strike that your unit had called in until a full week after is sociopathic.

And no, it's not perfectly normal for someone with a normal sense of empathy to put themselves ahead of others who have it worse. You want proof of that? Just search Vivian Silver, who even while she was holed up in the Kibbutz on 10/7 was on a radio phone-in admonishing the hosts for their racist rhetoric towards Palestinians.

You have absolutely no right to comment given redcafe is the closest place you've been to in a war zone.

Sociopathic because I didn't consider innocents may have died as I had mortars dropped on my head

 

[Amir]

And no, it's not perfectly normal for someone with a normal sense of empathy to put themselves ahead of others who have it worse. You want proof of that? Just search Vivian Silver, who even while she was holed up in the Kibbutz on 10/7 was on a radio phone-in admonishing the hosts for their racist rhetoric towards Palestinians.

I'd love to see a poll about that: You, your family, your friends, are being attacked by rockets. Do you put yourselves ahead of others at this moment?

Vivian Silver was a saint. I'm afraid most of us are just human.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Can’t believe people are discussing if it’s okay to kill children and babies. No matter the circumstances that is wrong.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Can’t believe people are discussing if it’s okay to kill children and babies. No matter the circumstances that is wrong.

Nobody is discussing that whatsoever.

People are discussing the normal reaction when under fire and how "Well other people have it worst" is not on the forefront of most peoples minds.