Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Mockney said:
It’s genuinely quite radicalising to see virtually the entire media and political ecosystem wilfully misinterpret this so brazenly into an international incident. Let alone one with victims only on one side (and the side that started it to boot!)…. Just maddeningly corrupt. Pure gaslighting.

Like I’m certainly willing to believe this spilled into a more political thing, but… the Tel Aviv fans started that!! THEY were spoiling for a fight, and they got it. If other fans who weren’t involved unfortunately got caught up in it… well yeah, shit, but that’s what happens in football hooliganism! I have friends who had to run into a Cafe and convince the owners to pull their shutters during the Marseille riots at Euro2016 cos they were being chased by Russians just for being English. That funnily didn’t end up being denounced as a hate crime by the President of the United States!
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It's gaslighting, like you said, but I can't imagine that this stuff changes one single mind after the last year.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
It's gaslighting, like you said, but I can't imagine that this stuff changes one single mind after the last year.
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It will rile up a lot in Europe, remind everyone of the brown danger, do a ton to restore Israel's quite damaged image and put the partly lost narrative back on track. The far-right movements are also popping bottles of champagne.

I'm halfway buying into deliberate provocations coming from the Maccabi "fans" in order to incite a violent response.

I'm absolutely astonished by how fast the media and the western governments jumped on it, its portraying and the sheer scale of the gaslighting they're churning out.
 
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That_Bloke said:
It will rile up a lot in Europe, remind everyone of the brown danger and do a ton to restore Israe's quite damaged image and put the partly lost narrative back on track. The far-right movements are also popping bottles of champagne.

I'm halfway buying into deliberate provocations coming from the Maccabi "fans" in order to incite a violent response.

I'm absolutely astonished by how fast the media and the western governments jumped on it, its portraying and the sheer scale of the gaslighting they're churning out.
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I went to Marca (sports website) and El Mundo (general news) and checked their comments section for these stories. Those are usually bastions of anti-Arab racism. The majority of the comments on both were anti-Israeli.

You can't gaslight people as easily with mainstream media anymore, people use social media, all those stories of the Haifa fans antagonizing, pulling down flags, etc. get seen by lots.
 
Amir said:
Report me all you like. You either lie or you just post without having any idea what's really happening. And turning this into a case of "Israeli thugs attacking Arabs locals" is a blatant lie.

I wrote from the start - I'm not exonerating Maccabi TA fans. I won't even rule out the possibility that a few of them were physically violent, although I don't know of such cases. But from what I also heard from Maccabi fans I know who were there - just regularly football fans, they are not racist, don't song vile songs, don't look for trouble - those were a big bunch of planned attacks on the Israeli supporters and jewish people.

Yes, Arab locals attacked Israelis. And if you say otherwise, you're lying.
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How would the Maccabi fans you're talking about know?
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I went to Marca (sports website) and El Mundo (general news) and checked their comments section for these stories. Those are usually bastions of anti-Arab racism. The majority of the comments on both were anti-Israeli.

You can't gaslight people as easily with mainstream media anymore, people use social media, all those stories of the Haifa fans antagonizing, pulling down flags, etc. get seen by lots.
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I think you still can, especially with the older generations.

Then you have others who don't really care about the conflict, never go past headlines and form their opinion based on them. If you add the quite widespread anti-Arab/Muslim, latent or open, sentiment in european societies, I think that what's been portrayed in the media has a lot of chances of being successful.

Even if there's by chance a more nuanced view on the events coming out afterwards, it's already too late. The damage's been done and given the average attention span of the people, it's irreversible.
 
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This is different. You can't gaslight people so easily over this because they know and understand what they are seeing.

When we see bombs dropped in Gaza or Lebanon, people don;t really understand what they are looking at. Horrified by the human cost for sure, but we have no direct experiences of war.

But football hooligans? Anyone living in urban areas in europe know what that looks like, and no amount of media narratives will overide what they know they are looking at.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
This is different. You can't gaslight people so easily over this because they know and understand what they are seeing.

When we see bombs dropped in Gaza or Lebanon, people don;t really understand what they are looking at. Horrified by the human cost for sure, but we have no direct experiences of war.

But football hooligans? Anyone living in urban areas in europe know what that looks like, and no amount of media narratives will overide what they know they are looking at.
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Except that's exactly what the media are wilfully omitting and deliberately portraying the whole thing as purely anti-semitic attacks, with the western governments suddenly finding a conscience to express their outrage and condemnations in the strongest terms.

Israeli supporters are being hunted down just because they're Jewish. Pogroms and yadda, yadda.
 
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Roane said:
Thought the same. Mask has slipped a few times though.
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You mean, when I don't agree with absolutely EVERYTHING bad written about Israel and when I point out that some of the things written are just false?

Like all this being bunch of Israeli thugs beating a bunch of poor local arabs in Amsterdam?
 
That_Bloke said:
I'm halfway buying into deliberate provocations coming from the Maccabi "fans" in order to incite a violent response.
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I don't think that's not the issue. Knowing that type of Israelis, it was more a show of strength on a foreign land, "look at us, pround Israelis", and all that crap.
 
Amir said:
Because they were there, and had to run away from ambushes.
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Question stands.

They were presumably not there when fellow fans were singing genocidal chants, vandalizing or roaming the streets with makeshift weapons. So, how would they they, as Maccabi fans, know if they were targets of retaliatory attacks as Maccabi fans or of preplanned attacks because they're Jewish?
 
NotThatSoph said:
Question stands.

They were presumably not there when fellow fans were singing genocidal chants, vandalizing or roaming the streets with makeshift weapons. So, how would they they, as Maccabi fans, know if they were targets of retaliatory attacks as Maccabi fans or of preplanned attacks because they're Jewish?
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If you're walking down the street with a few other fans, doing nothing wrong, and someone attacks you, is that retaliatory?

Also, from what I gather from people living in the Netherlands, there are reports in local media about Telegram and Whatsup messages found on phones of some attackers who were arrested that show it was pre-planned before the Israeli supporters arrived. Obviously we'll have to let the investigation take its course before we know for certain how it all transpired.
 
Amir said:
If you're walking down the street with a few other fans, doing nothing wrong, and someone attacks you, is that retaliatory?

Also, from what I gather from people living in the Netherlands, there are reports in local media about Telegram and Whatsup messages found on phones of some attackers who were arrested that show it was pre-planned before the Israeli supporters arrived. Obviously we'll have to let the investigation take its course before we know for certain how it all transpired.
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In what context? If some United fans are starting trouble away, and locals respond by attacking any United fan they see, then yes, that is obviously retaliatory. I'm very confused by this question, because not only is it obvious, it's also a very common scenario when football related violence happens, which I'm sure you already know.
 
They shouldn't even be playing in these competitions anyway, if the governing bodies were consistent they would be given the Russia treatment.
 
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Roane said:
Absolutely has a few times
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There's no mask, he's a liberal zionist who mostly doesn't like the occupation and considers Palestinians humans but loves the IOF. The last thing is shared by the vast majority of Israelis. Some will say they hate Netanyahu, Ben Gvir or anyone in that coalition. When it comes to their army though, they are brave guardian angels except few bad apples. It's the reason he has so many replies defending their actions and not believing they would commit some of the depraved atrocities reported earlier in their genocide.
 
Idxomer said:
There's no mask, he's a liberal zionist who mostly doesn't like the occupation and considers Palestinians humans but loves the IOF. The last thing is shared by the vast majority of Israelis. Some will say they hate Netanyahu, Ben Gvir or anyone in that coalition. When it comes to their army though, they are brave guardian angels except few bad apples. It's the reason he has so many replies defending their actions and not believing they would commit some of the depraved atrocities reported earlier in their genocide.
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He also said he couldn't care less about kids being killed as long as he was safe.
 
NotThatSoph said:
In what context? If some United fans are starting trouble away, and locals respond by attacking any United fan they see, then yes, that is obviously retaliatory. I'm very confused by this question, because not only is it obvious, it's also a very common scenario when football related violence happens, which I'm sure you already know.
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Yeah.

But this wasn't your run of the mill football violence.
 
Idxomer said:
There's no mask, he's a liberal zionist who mostly doesn't like the occupation and considers Palestinians humans but loves the IOF. The last thing is shared by the vast majority of Israelis. Some will say they hate Netanyahu, Ben Gvir or anyone in that coalition. When it comes to their army though, they are brave guardian angels except few bad apples. It's the reason he has so many replies defending their actions and not believing they would commit some of the depraved atrocities reported earlier in their genocide.
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Loves? Not at all. I hated my three years there, and I despise some of the things it does.

However, if Israel did not have an army, there would no be Israel, so I can apprecaite SOME of its purposes and actions.

But in this thread, it seems that if are not against something 100% of the time, then you're portrayed as if you support it.
 
2mufc0 said:
He also said he couldn't care less about kids being killed as long as he was safe.
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I might have said it in October 2023.

I'm terribly sorry for being emotional in such a time I saw hundreds of Israeli citizens murdered and while being bombarded by rockets, along with friends and family.
 
Amir said:
Loves? Not at all. I hated my three years there, and I despise some of the things it does.

However, if Israel did not have an army, there would no be Israel, so I can apprecaite SOME of its purposes and actions.

But in this thread, it seems that if are not against something 100% of the time, then you're portrayed as if you support it.
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It's not about having an army though? You can have an army but not use it how it has been.

I'm not opposed to any nation having an army, in fact it's essential to defend yourselves, this doesn't mean you can do whatever you like with it.

What's particularly concerning in this conflict is the disparity between the armies in terms of weaponry and resources.
 
Amir said:
I might have said it in October 2023.

I'm terribly sorry for being emotional in such a time I saw hundreds of Israeli citizens murdered and while being bombarded by rockets, along with friends and family.
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I'm sure it was an emotional time, but most rational people still wouldn't be OK with killing innocent kids.
 
Amir said:
Loves? Not at all. I hated my three years there, and I despise some of the things it does.

However, if Israel did not have an army, there would no be Israel, so I can apprecaite SOME of its purposes and actions.

But in this thread, it seems that if are not against something 100% of the time, then you're portrayed as if you support it.
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I think that happens because you keep making excuses for them.
 
That_Bloke said:
Amir is not WUM.

On the contrary, his contribution is highly appreciated and his posts are some of the most constructive in this thread.

You're barking up the wrong tree, mate.
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By trying to get a response from me talking about October 7th?

That is him trying to wind me up.

WUM
 
2mufc0 said:
It's not about having an army though? You can have an army but not use it how it has been.

I'm not opposed to any nation having an army, in fact it's essential to defend yourselves, this doesn't mean you can do whatever you like with it.
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Agreed.

And like I said, I hate a lot of the things the Israeli army does.

I also know that it also does other, better, things, and that not all of the people who serve there are genocidal maniacs.

Some are, though.
 
2mufc0 said:
I'm sure it was an emotional time, but most rational people still wouldn't be OK with killing innocent kids.
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Would they be rational with rockets flying over their heads?

I wonder how many people here were in such a situation, of literally being under attack, that they can say for certain how they would respond.

And I hope that none of you ever find yourself in such a situation.
 
Idxomer said:
I think that happens because you keep making excuses for them.
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I support a whole lot of the criticism here against the IDF and I've written about it before time and time again.

But sometimes I think differently from other people here, from a point of view that no one here has. And on occasion, people here post things which are simply incorrect.
 
Idxomer said:
There's no mask, he's a liberal zionist who mostly doesn't like the occupation and considers Palestinians humans but loves the IOF. The last thing is shared by the vast majority of Israelis. Some will say they hate Netanyahu, Ben Gvir or anyone in that coalition. When it comes to their army though, they are brave guardian angels except few bad apples. It's the reason he has so many replies defending their actions and not believing they would commit some of the depraved atrocities reported earlier in their genocide.
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That's a quite unfair way to look at things.

You can disagree with him on many topics, I personally do, even on this latest matter.

But this "liberal zionist, IOF lover" is just ridiculous. You can't pin him down on what he said right after 10/7, it was a purely emotional response. I remember perfectly what he said at the time, but it doesn't take away anything from what he contributed to this thread nor what his convictions are.

I don't like this ganging up. It's too easy to unload on him, just because he's perceiving the Amsterdam disaster as a direct attack on Jews.

I personally don't believe it. I think that the Maccabi fans wilfully scratched a match right next to a powder keg and it blew up, with all the excesses it entails. The reasons are for anyone to interpret, we can only see the results. I have no qualms with proud racist, genocidal cnuts getting the living shit beat out of them before they're sent back to their Apartheid wonderland. Feck them. However when it extends to people who were not directly involved, it becomes a problem.

Israeli clubs shouldn't even be participating anyways under the current circumstances, if the West had any semblance of a backbone.

I personally entirely blame the Dutch authorities and law enforcement who:

1. Passively watched the Maccabi Ultras singing genocidal chants and tear or burn of the Palestinian flag without taking any action or trying to dampen what was predictably going to be a shit show.

2. Didn't plan for a strict separation of Israeli fans from the rest of the crowd, from start to finish. And I mean by that, from the airport back to the airport. Hell, it's been done for much less than that.


Andy_Cole said:
By trying to get a response from me talking about October 7th?

That is him trying to wind me up.

WUM
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He's honestly not. If you read his posts as regularly as I do, you'd know.
 
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Solius said:
Really having to hold my tongue with someone I know who just posted about this acting as if they're innocent people who just got attacked. Completely ignoring the fact they were pulling down flags and chanting about dead children. It's not anti-semitism, they were just being cnuts for fecks sake.
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Same. There are a few on my instagram who spewed israeli propaganda consistently but had been quiet for awhile until now. Funnily enough there is a lot of overlap with that cohort and those celebrating Trump and laughing at 'crying lefties'. I should just delete the cnuts.
 
Amir said:
I support a whole lot of the criticism here against the IDF and I've written about it before time and time again.

But sometimes I think differently from other people here, from a point of view that no one here has. And on occasion, people here post things which are simply incorrect.
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Sadly the actions of your people is what will cause Israelis to get attacked. Can't blame anyone else. They only place they'll be safe is in Israel. That's the sad reality. It's the same way the Palestinians people has been prosecuted for the actions of hamas. The same reasoning being used to wipe Palestinians people from Gaza is the same reasoning that will be used around the world against Israelis because most of them support the war. They only have their own peers to blame for the hostility towards them.
 
That_Bloke said:
You can disagree with him on many topics, I personally do, even on this latest matter.

But this "liberal zionist, IOF lover" is just ridiculous. You can't pin him down on what he said right after 10/7, it was a purely emotional response. I remember perfectly what he said at the time, but it doesn't take away anything from what he contributed to this thread nor what his convictions are.
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I don't mind his posts or his perspective, but he has a blind spot concerning the IOF that borders on delusion sometimes. I saw that in arguments before like not believing they would summarily execute Palestinians or that after all that happened in the last 13 months and the previous decades, he refused to equate them with Hamas or Hezbollah.
 
Amir said:
Would they be rational with rockets flying over their heads?

I wonder how many people here were in such a situation, of literally being under attack, that they can say for certain how they would respond.

And I hope that none of you ever find yourself in such a situation.
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I was born and raised in Kashmir. My family have had to run from an occupying army many times.

I know exactly what it's like being in fear of losing your life, your land and your loved ones.

I still don't believe killing kids in "retaliation" is EVER acceptable.

I remember in the 80's when the mujahideen/rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters took British hostages. They were desperate to get media to highlight their plight (as it was being ignored). The hostages on release told how they were apologized to and given gifts as no harm was meant for them. It was a desperate people who just wanted the world to see their plight. A world that ignores it until they took hostages.

I've personally spoken to people who have seen their homes burnt, their wives and daughters (as young as 6/7 raped). I noticed the dead look in their eyes. Their lack of empathy for the "soldiers" they killed in retaliation. But still didn't resort to rape or murdering kids.

And these people, my people, weren't occupiers. This was their land, their homes from generations back.
 
That_Bloke said:
It will rile up a lot in Europe, remind everyone of the brown danger, do a ton to restore Israe's quite damaged image and put the partly lost narrative back on track. The far-right movements are also popping bottles of champagne.

I'm halfway buying into deliberate provocations coming from the Maccabi "fans" in order to incite a violent response.

I'm absolutely astonished by how fast the media and the western governments jumped on it, its portraying and the sheer scale of the gaslighting they're churning out.
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I'm not seeing that tbh. If anything, I'm seeing otherwise disengaged or ambivalent people being at the least confused at the framing, and at most, antagonistic towards it.

The powers that be and the media are peddling this line, but it's been pushed back on relentlessly by average users of social media because it was the latter who picked up on the story far, far earlier than the mainstream media did.
 
Amir said:
Would they be rational with rockets flying over their heads?

I wonder how many people here were in such a situation, of literally being under attack, that they can say for certain how they would respond.

And I hope that none of you ever find yourself in such a situation.
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Do you have bomb shelters where you are? And do the Palestinian citizens of Israel have them? I'd be much more sympathetic to your view if you had those same issues that they had, but I'm sorry, property damage or "emotional health impacts" are in no way equivalent to F16s raining down hell on refugee tents, or even, a Katyusha hitting a Bedouin village.

It's genuinely a bit mad that someone would be fine with so much death and destruction purely because he's been put at some level of inconvenience, and then expects sympathy for it.

Think there's quite a bit for a therapist to unpack there, but alas, I'm not one.
 
Sweet Square said:
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Recent death toll is reported to be 43,391 Palestinians according to Wikipedia. Even if you reduce that percentage down to 50%. That's still over 21,500 children aged 5 to 9 killed.That's almost the same population as Westhoughton in Greater Manchester (22k). It's such a huge failure of humanity that we haven't been able to stop this so much sooner. Truly a depressing statistic.

As for the football fans, feck them. The Police should have stopped these thugs way before things escalated. Zero tolerance to scum bags that make songs out of children being massacred and strutting around Europe.
 
rotherham_red said:
Do you have bomb shelters where you are? And do the Palestinian citizens of Israel have them? I'd be much more sympathetic to your view if you had those same issues that they had, but I'm sorry, property damage or "emotional health impacts" are in no way equivalent to F16s raining down hell on refugee tents, or even, a Katyusha hitting a Bedouin village.

It's genuinely a bit mad that someone would be fine with so much death and destruction purely because he's been put at some level of inconvenience, and then expects sympathy for it.

Think there's quite a bit for a therapist to unpack there, but alas, I'm not one.
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This is frankly a terrible take on how someone may feel scared.

“You shouldn’t feel scared or angry or emotional because someone else has it worse” is an awful take.
 
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