Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

MoskvaRed said:
The attitude of the West has become a weird one to explain. I had initially put it down to brutal realpolitik (Israel=ally, Palestinians=unimportant). However, after more than 12 months of this horror, you have to flip the question and ask whether, even from that cynical standpoint, Israel is really of such strategic value that it warrants the squandering of any remaining moral capital that the West retained after Iraq. I could try to ascribe it to the effects of Israeli wooing of the US and European political class and specific circumstances (US election cycle, UK exhaustion after self-destruction since 2016, France’s fragile political situation, Germany’s post-WWII demons). But, ultimately, you have to conclude that the reason that 200 people dying in floods in Spain is a tragedy (which it is of course) while the killing of at least 45,000 people on the southern shore of the same sea is treated as a kind of unpleasant background noise in public consciousness, is that the latter are (largely) of a religious background that the West at best barely tolerates and in many cases actively despises. It’s an ugly look.
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I think it's way simpler than racism. Unless the said politicians is a Jews or having strong ties to Jews it's about as simple as maintaining their AIPAC donations and re-election campaign to stay in power. I doubt they actually cares about Palestinian, or the Israeli. Not helping Israel to the hilt = no reelection campaign
 
Amir said:
While it's only very partially relevant, a big podcast in Israel conducted a survey right after October 7. One of the questions was, how long do people think the war will last.

1.6% or so said one year or more. Most people believed it would be a few months.
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I know, Amir.

There's no one, not even Netanyahu, who thought that it would last this long, with still no end in sight.

I personally pegged the end of 2023 as the deadline before the US does what it usually does and jumps in to stop the massacre, especially with incoming US elections. To my own bafflement and many much better informed people than I am, it never happened and all hell broke loose.

Despite their declarations, the US and the West effectively supported and encouraged the madness, no matter which level of horror Netanyahu and the IDF crossed. They wilfully fed the frenzy and bloodlust of the most extremist and certainly one of the worst ultra-right governments in history, reinforcing their sense of impunity, which then overflowed on an already loaded population.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the Israeli population is still massively supporting the government's handling of Gaza and Lebanon.

I personally hold the current US administration fully responsible for the genocide in Gaza and the situation in the Middle-East as well as the gigantic minefield it leaves for the next one. This will be Biden's legacy, shame be on his name for all eternity.
 
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Here's an interview of Francesca Albanese, the UN Special Rapporteur in Occupied Palestine and one of the most courageous and upstanding human beings of our time.

She's a tireless voice for the Palestinians and also accessorily one of Israel's and the US' worst nightmares. The interview is lead by another courageous man, Chris Hedges, Pulitzer Award-winning and former journalist at the New York Times.

One of the most telling "incidents" Chris Hedges, who speaks Arabic, personally witnessed in the West Bank was Israeli soldiers goading through loud-speakers 10-12 years old Palestinian children on their way home after school in arabic, riling them up and insulting them until one of them picked a rock and threw it at them, which the soldiers then used as an excuse to shoot them dead. The incident is mentioned around the 14th minute of the interview.

For mentioning it and despite irrefutable evidence on the matter, Chris Hedges was forbidden from covering the Middle-East for the Harper's Magazine any further, the newspaper he also was reporting for at the time. This happened in July 2000.

Chris Hedges lost his job at the NYT because of his position on Palestine as well as the invasion of Iraq by the US and was cancelled, once again, a few months ago from Real News Network because of his stance on Gaza.

Francesca Albanese depicts with accuracy the humiliating colonial, racist policies applied by Israel in the occupied territories since its inception in the region in 1948, how it never stopped to use any opportunity to drive off the Palestinians, make their life as miserable as possible and steal their land at every corner.

Only 1% of the building permits applied by the Palestinians in the occupied West Bank have been approved by the Israeli army. The rest's discarded, offering more opportunities to Israeli settlers to take over more of the Palestinians' land. Just imagine that, to be forbidden to build your home in your own country.

She describes the culmination of these policies unleashed after 10/7 and the genocidal intent of the Israeli government, the systematic dehumanization of the Palestinians, the all too convenient "terrorist" epithet slapped to anyone standing up to the Israeli occupation. She also bashes the laughable "right to self-defense", moronically parrotted by the western media and governments, and some here, as well as Israel's systematic lies automatically relayed by the western media without any kind of cross-checking and the deep underlying racism behind it.

She rightly explains that the Holocaust, like any other genocide, was the apex of a dehumanization process started decades before. And that it never happens overnight.

She also depicts Israel's traumatized psyche due to centuries of horrendous and continuous persecutions which partly explains, without ever justifying, its propension to see an existential threat about anywhere and from anyone, as well as the lack of any limit set to fight off these perceived threats.

 
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The mask is now completely off for most liberals and progressives. It's all nice words and optics. Push comes to shove they'll side with the status quo.

I'm a pessimist and don't have much faith in society, but I'll be honest, I didn't think a genocide being shown live on the news daily for a year would have absolutely no impact on public opinion. Tons of politicians who supported this prefer turning on their own citizens who call them out then actually stopping their support for genocide. And most of them will be reelected while people cheer their names.

The US election thread is probably the most depressing on the caf ever. And I bet lots of forums in different countries will be the same. We don't really deserve much better than the fascism that's coming.
 
That_Bloke said:
Here's an interview of Francesca Albanese, the UN Special Rapporteur in Occupied Palestine and one of the most courageous and upstanding human beings of our time. Also accessorily one of Israel's and the US' worst nightmares. The interview is lead by Chris Hedges, Pulitzer Award-winning and former journalist at the New York Times.

One of the most telling "incidents" Chris Hedges, who speaks Arabic, personally witnessed in the West Bank was Israeli soldiers goading through loud-speakers 10-12 years old Palestinian children on their way home after school in arabic, riling them up and insulting them until one of them picks a rock and throws it at them, which the soldiers then used as an excuse to shoot them dead. The incident is mentioned around the 14th minute of the interview.

For mentioning it and despite irrefutable evidence about the matter, Chris Hedges was forbidden to cover the Middle-East for the Harper's Magazine, the newspaper he also was reporting for at the time. This happened in July 2000.

Chris Hedges lost his job at the NYT because of his position on Palestine as well as the invasion of Iraq by the US, and was cancelled again a few months ago from Real News Network, because of his comments on the Gaza genocide.

Francesca Albanese depicts with accuracy the colonial, humiliating, racist and inhumane policies applied by Israel in the occupied territories since its inception in the region in 1948, how it never stopped to use any opportunity to drive off the Palestinians, make their life as miserable as possible and steal their land.

Only 1% of the building permits applied by the Palestinians in the West Bank have been approved by the Israeli army. The rest's discarded, offering more opportunities to Israeli settlers to take over more of the Palestinians' land.

She describes the culmination of these policies unleashed after 10/7 and the genocidal intent of the Israeli government, the systematic dehumanization of the Palestinians, the all too convenient "terrorist" epithet slapped to anyone standing up to the Israeli occupation. She also bashes the laughable "right to self-defense", moronically parrotted by the western media and governments, and some here, when it comes to an occupying power badly mistreating an occupied population, as well as Israel's systematic lies automatically relayed by Western media without any kind of cross-checking and the deep underlying racism behind it.

She rightly explains that the Holocaust, like any other genocide, was the apex of a dehumanization process started decades before. And that it never happens overnight.

She also depicts Israel's traumatized psyche due to centuries of horrendous and continuous persecutions which partly explains, without ever justifying, its propension to see an existential threat about anywhere and from anyone, as well as the lack of any limit set to fight off these perceived threats.

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Albanese is giving a lecture at SOAS on Monday 11 November in case you or anyone else is interested. You do have to register, but it is free.

https://www.soas.ac.uk/about/event/imperialism-colonialism-and-human-rights-litmus-test-palestine
 
Kaos said:
This is just hilarious at this point.

Tax exemption for Israeli businesses next?
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someone in the replies pointed out that this bill makes it an offence for private businesses to deny special treatment for idf vets too.
it's just one country, US-Israel.

...

 
That_Bloke said:
There's no one, not even Netanyahu, who thought that it would last this long, with still no end in sight.

I personally pegged the end of 2023 as the deadline before the US does what it usually does and jumps in to stop the massacre, especially with incoming US elections. To my own bafflement and many much better informed people than I am, it never happened and all hell broke loose.

Despite their declarations, the US and the West effectively supported and encouraged the madness, no matter which level of horror Netanyahu and the IDF crossed. They wilfully fed the frenzy and bloodlust of the most extremist and certainly one of the worst ultra-right governments in history, reinforcing their sense of impunity, which then overflowed on an already loaded population.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the Israeli population is still massively supporting the government's handling of Gaza and Lebanon.

I personally hold the current US administration fully responsible for the genocide in Gaza and the situation in the Middle-East as well as the gigantic minefield it leaves for the next one. This will be Biden's legacy, shame be on his name for all eternity.
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Oh, Netanyahu might have thought that it would last this long. When the war started, some political analysts claimed that he would drag this as far as he can because he needs time to rebuild his political base. Shock and horror, it's been over a year, there's no end in sight, and he is getting some of his power back..

As for the US, I guess political considerations paid a huge part in their calculations due to the election. Also, it should be said - Netanyahu played them time and time again.

I guess the Israeli population still support the war. Mind you, people are just focused on getting by from day to day. The north is shut down, Israelis are killed almost every day - citizens as times, soldiers at other time.There were about 90 of them in October alone. I know a lot of people around the world just see them as war criminals, but those are young people who haven't started their lives or older reserve soldiers with families and children who lost a parent. That greatly affects people here.

And also, there a question of information. It has now been revealed that someone from Netanyahu's office - with Netanyahu's knowledge, no doubt - leaked secret Hamas papers caught by the IDF to international media (including the Bild), but claimed they were written by Sinwar itself. It was portrayed as if it proved that the Sinwar was using the families of the hostages to his benefit. And Netanyahu used those partly false publications which were manufacted by his office to claimed that it proved his point that he can't make a deal.

So basically, Israelis are being fed false information by their own PM. How can they form a worthwhile opinion like that?

Netanyahu is the fecking devil. But after so many years of control and brainwashing people through the social network and his media channels, people are blind to it. Or they were convinced that his opposition would be worse if they replaced him.
 
Amir said:
Oh, Netanyahu might have thought that it would last this long. When the war started, some political analysts claimed that he would drag this as far as he can because he needs time to rebuild his political base. Shock and horror, it's been over a year, there's no end in sight, and he is getting some of his power back..

As for the US, I guess political considerations paid a huge part in their calculations due to the election. Also, it should be said - Netanyahu played them time and time again.

I guess the Israeli population still support the war. Mind you, people are just focused on getting by from day to day. The north is shut down, Israelis are killed almost every day - citizens as times, soldiers at other time.There were about 90 of them in October alone. I know a lot of people around the world just see them as war criminals, but those are young people who haven't started their lives or older reserve soldiers with families and children who lost a parent. That greatly affects people here.

And also, there a question of information. It has now been revealed that someone from Netanyahu's office - with Netanyahu's knowledge, no doubt - leaked secret Hamas papers caught by the IDF to international media (including the Bild), but claimed they were written by Sinwar itself. It was portrayed as if it proved that the Sinwar was using the families of the hostages to his benefit. And Netanyahu used those partly false publications which were manufacted by his office to claimed that it proved his point that he can't make a deal.

So basically, Israelis are being fed false information by their own PM. How can they form a worthwhile opinion like that?

Netanyahu is the fecking devil. But after so many years of control and brainwashing people through the social network and his media channels, people are blind to it. Or they were convinced that his opposition would be worse if they replaced him.
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It's why I was initially shocked that they showed the drone footage of his death. The claims made previously were that he had fled to Qatar, or that he was wearing a burqa in a refugee camp, or that he was moving around surrounded by hostages. Well, he was fighting, alone, wearing military fatigues, and the IDF drone showed that. Which totally invalidates all three theories.

But then I had a thought - the fact that he was there alone, arm blown off, totally useless, facing a drone which he can't touch, waiting for death which was about to come - can also be a powerful propaganda moment. The total impotence of the opposition, the total superiority of Israel. Civilisation over barbarism, technology over sticks, left alone by his army and his god- that could be a resonant emotion.
 
> Slowly, slowly, the northern Strip, including Gaza City... will become some kind of a distant dream (for the Palestinians). Just as they forgot about Ashkelon, they'll forget about this area as well

 
Amir said:
I know a lot of people around the world just see them as war criminals, but those are young people who haven't started their lives or older reserve soldiers with families and children who lost a parent. That greatly affects people here.
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They took out plenty of lives before starting theirs.
 
Amir said:
I know a lot of people around the world just see them as war criminals, but those are young people who haven't started their lives or older reserve soldiers with families and children who lost a parent.
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Do you think they are war criminals?
 
In September, after news broke of the murder of six Israeli hostages in Hamas captivity, the protests for a hostage deal reached unprecedented levels. Netanyahu then exploited documents attributed to Hamas and leaked to German tabloid Bild and the U.K.'s Jewish Chronicle to undermine the protests, suggesting that the demonstrators were 'falling into Hamas' trap.' Here's how it unfolded, step by step
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maniak said:
Do you think they are war criminals?
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I think the IDF has done some terrible stuff, and so have some soldiers. There are those to got to this war hellbent on revenge, death and destruction.

But I wouldn't generalize and I don't think it's right to put a similar label on each and every soldier killed.
 
berbatrick said:
But then I had a thought - the fact that he was there alone, arm blown off, totally useless, facing a drone which he can't touch, waiting for death which was about to come - can also be a powerful propaganda moment. The total impotence of the opposition, the total superiority of Israel. Civilisation over barbarism, technology over sticks, left alone by his army and his god- that could be a resonant emotion.
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I'd say Israel couldn't help itself but release that video. Rationality didn't come into it.
 
Amir said:
Some of them probably didn't take lives and some only took lives of Hezbollah terrorists, as many of the IDF soldiers killed lately have been fighting on the ground in the south of Lebanon.
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Terrorists taking out terrorists seems like a fair trade.
 
2mufc0 said:
Terrorists taking out terrorists seems like a fair trade.
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Yeah, I'm not having that, even though I know people got used to looking at it like that in this thread without reproach.

If Israel did not have an army, and a very good one, it would not exist. The IDF is a necessity. Yes, there are some commanders and soldiers who are doing terrible things, and that RIGHTLY reflects on the IDF as a whole. But there are a lot of good hearted soldiers who do not harm women or children, do not aim to hurt innocent people, do not burn houses for fun, and really are there to try and protect Israel and Israelis (like myself). Naturally soldiers - who keep me safe - are unnoticed.
 
Amir said:
Yeah, I'm not having that, even though I know people got used to looking at it like that in this thread without reproach.

If Israel did not have an army, and a very good one, it would not exist. The IDF is a necessity. Yes, there are some commanders and soldiers who are doing terrible things, and that RIGHTLY reflects on the IDF as a whole. But there are a lot of good hearted soldiers who do not harm women or children, do not aim to hurt innocent people, do not burn houses for fun, and really are there to try and protect Israel and Israelis (like myself). Naturally soldiers - who keep me safe - are unnoticed.
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It’s not necessary to occupy, starve, kill and destroy civilian infrastructure, I’m also sure there are good hearted people in Hamas who want to live oppression free, this however doesn’t whitewash their crimes.

You may not like the truth but IOF behaviour over the last 12 months has shown themselves as nothing but ruthless tyrants that even people who were pro Israeli are starting to turn. It has to be these so called good hearted people that need to put pressure on to end this cruelty but it seems they are fully on board, so no sympathy from me. Also BN has been democratically elected a number of times.
 
You can't really complain about people not taking a nuanced view of IDF soldiers and simultaneously defend them by saying they're "only killing Hezbollah terrorists."
 
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Iker Quesadillas said:
You can't really complain about people not taking a nuanced view of IDF soldiers and simultaneously defend them by saying they're "only killing Hezbollah terrorists."
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While also doing it in other country, not in Israel, and claiming self-defense.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
While also doing it in other country, not in Israel, and claiming self-defense.
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In the south of Lebanon it's absolutely self defence as the infrastructure build by Hezbollah was not there for fun. It was there in preperation for the Hezbollah version of October 7.
 
Amir said:
I can, as that's exactly what some of them do.
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I think the point you're missing is the "Hezbollah terrorists" should also deserve the same nuanced view you're using for the Israeli soldiers. If you want to be consistent.
 
2mufc0 said:
It’s not necessary to occupy, starve, kill and destroy civilian infrastructure, I’m also sure there are good hearted people in Hamas who want to live oppression free, this however doesn’t whitewash their crimes.

You may not like the truth but IOF behaviour over the last 12 months has shown themselves as nothing but ruthless tyrants that even people who were pro Israeli are starting to turn. It has to be these so called good hearted people that need to put pressure on to end this cruelty but it seems they are fully on board, so no sympathy from me. Also BN has been democratically elected a number of times.
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I'm not defending the IDF as a whole in any way.

I'm simply saying that while a lot of people naturally do that, a more nuanced, deep, view would refrain from looking at every single soldier the same way. A lot of them are actually focused on fighting terrorists.

Of course, if you see a problem with killing Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists, people who'd end my life in a heartbeat if they could, i guess there's not much to discuss.
 
Mogget said:
I think the point you're missing is the "Hezbollah terrorists" should also deserve the same nuanced view you're using for the Israeli soldiers. If you want to be consistent.
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No, IDF soldiers and Hezbollah terrorists are not the same thing, despite the twisted way some people on this thread have been looking at it.
 
Amir said:
I'm not defending the IDF as a whole in any way.

I'm simply saying that while a lot of people naturally do that, a more nuanced, deep, view would refrain from looking at every single soldier the same way. A lot of them are actually focused on fighting terrorists.

Of course, if you see a problem with killing Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists, people who'd end my life in a heartbeat if they could, i guess there's not much to discuss.
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Yawn, the ones doing the mass killings are on your side, Palestinians and Lebanese are the ones facing terror at this moment. At the same time hezbollah fighters will also see themselves fighting off invaders/terrorists. Btw how many civilians have the IOF killed in Lebanon so far? And how many Israelis have hezbollah killed?

People aren’t buying your victim card anymore, you have all the technology and bombs with unconditional support from the strongest superpower in human history , subdued all your neighbours and are pretty much allies (some openly some under the table), there’s very little threat to Israel in the modern age. Your biggest threat has been some displaced people who are boxed into a corner of the country (who were actually displaced by Israel) who decided they wanted to resist.
 
Amir said:
No, IDF soldiers and Hezbollah terrorists are not the same thing, despite the twisted way some people on this thread have been looking at it.
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To you they're not. Those who have lost family members to the IDF's brutality would also see it differently, heck the reason Hezbollah even exist is Israel's invasion and occupation of South Lebanon. To many people in the South they see Hezbollah as liberators and IDF as belligerent occupiers. Likewise for Palestinians who firsthand will have witnessed the IDF murdering members of their family, prompting some of them to join Hamas.

Trying to create some moral disconnect doesn't really work anymore, not when the IDF are now openly culpable for human suffering and loss of life that's been unprecedented in the region for generations.

For those of us on the outside there's no moral pedestal for the IDF, on the contrary they've been disproportionately the biggest culprits for the loss of life, namely women and children. And I'm not just referring to the events of the last year either.
 
Whilst by and large I agree with the sentiments that the IDF has huge structural and professionalism problems as well as that of which is ideologically charged, comparing civilian casualties is a terrible way of deciding who are the better behaved soldiers/who is more justified in their approach.
 
Amir said:
No, IDF soldiers and Hezbollah terrorists are not the same thing, despite the twisted way some people on this thread have been looking at it.
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Why not? I'm sure there are plenty of Hezbollah members who are evil and want to kill civilians but every single one? You said some Israeli soldiers have only joined up for self defense. Why could that same principle not apply to some Hezbollah members? People who have only joined up to defend their families and communities from the IDF.

You ask us to view the IDF with nuance but you can't even do the same yourself.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Whilst by and large I agree with the sentiments that the IDF has huge structural and professionalism problems as well as that of which is ideologically charged, comparing civilian casualties is a terrible way of deciding who are the better behaved soldiers/who is more justified in their approach.
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I think this is aimed at me, just to clarify this is not what I’m saying, the point I was making was the actual threat to human life is far greater on one side than the other due to the disparity in weaponry.
 
2mufc0 said:
I think this is aimed at me, just to clarify this is not what I’m saying, the point I was making was the actual threat to human life is far greater on one side than the other due to the disparity in weaponry.
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This is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy though, in that Hezbollah is unable to enact a larger threat to human life due to the existence and abilities of the IDF.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
This is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy though, in that Hezbollah is unable to enact a larger threat to human life due to the existence and abilities of the IDF.
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But we aren’t talking about prophecies we are talking about reality .
 
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