Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Dragged Israeli settlers out of the Gaza strip about 20 years ago, and took the IDF out of the strip as well at the same time.

In response, over the next few years, rocket fire toward Israel increased.

I'm not clearing Israel here, just pointing out that while its responsible for a lot of the blame - there's another side here that hasn't exactly been helpful, to say the least.

You forgetting something? between the rockets falling and Israel "leaving" Gaza, a tiny detail.
 

What Hamas did on Oct 7th, what Hezbollah is doing, what ISIS has been doing, what the Houthis are doing, what the Taliban are doing, what the numerous terrorist groups in Africa are doing ... ... ... well, sorry, but I can't see anything funny about all that.

There is an obvious pattern here, and the West should not bury their heads in the sand.
 
Dragged Israeli settlers out of the Gaza strip about 20 years ago, and took the IDF out of the strip as well at the same time.

In response, over the next few years, rocket fire toward Israel increased.

I'm not clearing Israel here, just pointing out that while its responsible for a lot of the blame - there's another side here that hasn't exactly been helpful, to say the least.
Israeli settlers then continued to colonize the west bank, even when claiming not too.

Honestly, the misrepresentation is wild.
 
That is not childish. is plainly wrong. Israel started in 1948 and continuously relentlessly killed civilians including kids every single year. We could go about illegal settling and keeping Gaza in controlled miserable conditions. It did not start in October 7

No, it did not start on October 7. And there are people who will say it did not start in 1948 either, but previously.

But what has October 7 achieved other than tell Israelis they have a major threat right next to them, which inevitably forced them to respond in order to try and remove that threat?
 
Just coming at this from a technical angle, we know that Israel has incredibly accurate munitions, that can hit targets to within a couple of metres. We also know they have incredibly accurate surveillance/targeting equipment, that can accurately tell them exactly what person is where, at a given time.

If those 2 statements can be considered true, can you really say that the IDF haven't knowingly been killing civilians directly?

The IDF has clearly attacked at times knowing civilians could and will be harmed, as Gaza is very densed and crowded, with Hamas terrorist assimilated within the general population, public infrastructure, etc.

I'd say it's not exactly like going into a town, kibbutz or party - where only civilians will be around - and start firing.
 
You forgetting something? between the rockets falling and Israel "leaving" Gaza, a tiny detail.

I'm not. My point is that while Israel has normally not done enough, whenever it did try to do something positive and correct - the reponse was more terror.

This is why Israelis have no faith in the peace proccess, in the Palestenians, in the two-state solution. And why after being shocked and horrored following October 7, a lof ot them want the threat removed and don't care about the cost.
 
Mostly, yes. I'm sure there are soldiers who have been extremely trigger happy and don't care who they shoot. But I don't think the IDF as an organization planned to directly targett civilians.

The IDF had a very broad ROE at the beginning of the invasion, which they've been under pressure to tighten up.

https://www.jns.org/us-pressure-causes-israel-to-tighten-rules-of-engagement-report/

Throughout this period, I'm sure there have been many instances where individuals opened fire on Palestinians when they didn't need to, and weren't subsequently disciplined because they're at war. Its doubtful they will be punished after the fighting stops either.
 
He's come back in here with a renewed zest for Israel, that's for sure.

Like I previous said, I can't win here.

I'm against 90% of what Israel did and has been doing, but if I try and explain my position about the other 10%, I'm portrayed as some sort of a blind Israel supporter.
 
Throughout this period, I'm sure there have been many instances where individuals opened fire on Palestinians when they didn't need to, and weren't subsequently disciplined because they're at war. Its doubtful they will be punished after the fighting stops either.

Yeah, I agree with all that. It's 100% correct.
 
Like I previous said, I can't win here.

I'm against 90% of what Israel did and has been doing, but if I try and explain my position about the other 10%, I'm portrayed as some sort of a blind Israel supporter.
I get that Hamas are bad and have done atrocities too, just I get the context and understand why they were able to take power.

Because of the continued historical injustice.
 
What Hamas did on Oct 7th, what Hezbollah is doing, what ISIS has been doing, what the Houthis are doing, what the Taliban are doing, what the numerous terrorist groups in Africa are doing ... ... ... well, sorry, but I can't see anything funny about all that.

There is an obvious pattern here, and the West should not bury their heads in the sand.
Bring back imperialism
 
I get that Hamas are bad and have done atrocities too, just I get the context and understand why they were able to take power.

Because of the continued historical injustice.

Yeah, I agree. And now what do we do about that?

Like I previously wrote - when Israel signed the Olso accords in the 90s, it was Hamas who responded by sending suicide bombers and killing hundreds of Israelis. So if trying to bring peace doesn't satisfy Hamas, what can we do?
 
Kind of hilarious seeing Israelis asking American politicians to stay out of their business when they have been meddling with American politics for decades through AIPAC.
 
Kind of hilarious seeing Israelis asking American politicians to stay out of their business when they have been meddling with American politics for decades through AIPAC.

Not to mention Netanyahu making a speech in congress over Obama's head.
 
Mostly, yes. I'm sure there are soldiers who have been extremely trigger happy and don't care who they shoot. But I don't think the IDF as an organization planned to directly targett civilians.
After all we've seen, I'm sorry but that's just willful ignorance. They have been directly targeting civilians since the beginning. Just read about all the ngo workers leaving gaza and the stories they tell. It's a fact at this point.
 
Mostly, yes. I'm sure there are soldiers who have been extremely trigger happy and don't care who they shoot. But I don't think the IDF as an organization planned to directly targett civilians.

The politicians openly talk about it, the soldiers tik-tok and make a joke of it. The IDF is an army of terrorists led by terrorists.

Just today I read a UN report about how a AP journalist was intentionally targetted and killed by the IDF and how it's leadership lied about it afterwards. It's not a few rogue soldiers, it's systemic from the top to the bottom.
 
After all we've seen, I'm sorry but that's just willful ignorance. They have been directly targeting civilians since the beginning. Just read about all the ngo workers leaving gaza and the stories they tell. It's a fact at this point.

Maybe. We can all agree terrible things are being done, whether it comes as a direct order from the top or not.
 
What Hamas did on Oct 7th, what Hezbollah is doing, what ISIS has been doing, what the Houthis are doing, what the Taliban are doing, what the numerous terrorist groups in Africa are doing ... ... ... well, sorry, but I can't see anything funny about all that.

There is an obvious pattern here, and the West should not bury their heads in the sand.
Why don't you stop being beating around the bush and just say what you want to say?
 
Here’s an excerpt I’ve edited together from Robert Fisk’s classic Pity the Nation where Fisk, having experienced the Israeli bombing of West Beirut, seeks out an Israeli Air Force commander for his thoughts on the process and consequences of the bombing campaign - https://jumpshare.com/s/ioejRyp2LsWiyOLxwImA
 
Yes, they did. They did not continue to colonize the Gaza strip, though. And Gaza then became a huge hub of terror and weapons.
Did Israel expected that Palestinians would be satisfied with being handed 3% of the area of the occupied territories and quietly watch Israel colonize the rest?
 
Mostly, yes. I'm sure there are soldiers who have been extremely trigger happy and don't care who they shoot. But I don't think the IDF as an organization planned to directly targett civilians.
I don't know if this is you just burying your head in the sand with your fingers in your ears, plain simple delusion or you're on the payroll but it's devoid of the truth and the reality on the ground. You're clearly not discussing this in good faith anymore.

We've had countless instances where IDF have intentionally targeted civilians.
We have genocidal rhetoric coming straight from members of your knesset.
You can't wave away 12,000 kid deaths and 11,000 women deaths.

The IDF are barbaric and worse terrorists than Hamas.
 
I don't know if this is you just burying your head in the sand with your fingers in your ears, plain simple delusion or you're on the payroll but it's devoid of the truth and the reality on the ground. You're clearly not discussing this in good faith anymore.

Jesus christ.

Please have an ounce of respect to another perspective.
 
Jesus christ.

Please have an ounce of respect to another perspective.
I can’t with a perspective that is plain false. It’s akin to flat earthers and climate change deniers.

There’s not even a piece of evidence you can use to back up your claim. There’s countless I can use to back up my claim.

Can you explain to me why there have been over 23,000 deaths relating to women and kids?
 
I can’t with a perspective that is plain false. It’s akin to flat earthers and climate change deniers.

There’s not even a piece of evidence you can use to back up your claim. There’s countless I can use to back up my claim.

Can you explain to me why there have been over 23,000 deaths relating to women and kids?

Either made up stats, or they were all Hamas. Obviously.
 
They usually commit their massacres at night, the deranged terrorists they are.
 
No, it did not start on October 7. And there are people who will say it did not start in 1948 either, but previously.

But what has October 7 achieved other than tell Israelis they have a major threat right next to them, which inevitably forced them to respond in order to try and remove that threat?

But that threat had been created by Israel by keep crippling Gaza, the West bank and any 2 state solutions because it never had been interested in that solution

October 7th is a reaction of Israel policies and he Gaza war is a reaction of october 7th and the next will be a reaction of palestinians and cycle keeps going.

You can't say that it started in October. IT didn't specially because Israel is the one that holds the power to stp this cycle because is the oppressor No matter what part on the cycle are we, Israel is the only one that can stop it. And that is complete annihilation of the palestinians via genocide and/or ethnic cleansing, that it seems is the route they are going or take the road of the 2 state solution. Palestinians can't decide their destiny because Israel controls it via controlling Gaza and via illegal settling in WB
 
Here’s an excerpt I’ve edited together from Robert Fisk’s classic Pity the Nation where Fisk, having experienced the Israeli bombing of West Beirut, seeks out an Israeli Air Force commander for his thoughts on the process and consequences of the bombing campaign - https://jumpshare.com/s/ioejRyp2LsWiyOLxwImA

You can always go back further to see them commit the same atrocities using the same tired excuses. Their policy always includes killing civilians and destroying their infrastructure to get what they want and terrorize the people of the cities they attack.