It's been 5 months.
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Not sure why I’m speaking for Amir but it reads as if the first paragraph was his immediate reaction to the event. Is he still saying he wants his security back no matter what? When was the last time he said that?
This is the post I am referring to. If I've misunderstood somehow then I apologise, but I found it pretty shocking given your posting history.
I believe that was Owlo who said that. apologies if I'm myself am mistaken.
I don't know what I think, I'm doing my best not to think about anything, which is obviously impossible.
My mental state is in the gutter if I'm honest.
Trying to keep focusing on my daily stuff, not watch the news.
Haven't been to a single demo, not to stop the operation, not the end the occupation, not for the return of the hostages, not the ones calling for Bibi's head.
Have also taken a break from this thread due to the info that is presented here, it's absolutely brutal.
At any rate, the reasonable Israeli voice as seen by this forum probably represents 0-1% of the Israeli population.
very very hard times.
It was very clear from the beginning that the support for Israel would vanish after the first couple of weeks. I was certain that "the world" would stop Israel from staying in Gaza for months on end, and i thought that only a much smaller part of it would turn into a ghost-town.
And it was also obvious that this thread will turn more and more towards a certain direction, the more it goes on.
I'm 99.99999999% sure that I would be vehemently against Israel if I were looking from the outside in.
But since I'm not, there's a real mess in my head.
Some of those soldiers are my friends.
If I wasn't prone to depression from a young age, i too would have been drafted to a field-unit as I'm physically healthy,
and would probably have spent the last couple of months either inside Gaza or on the Lebanese border.
you guys would have been writing horrors about me...
And I would be there, probably believing that what I do is right and just.
[As an aside- this best-friend of mine who serves in one of the most elite units of the IDF that I wrote about in the first days of it all, how I feared for his life... 5 months on and he is appalled by what's going on in Gaza, as someone who's been there. he would have echoed everything Amir wrote in his last post.]
How do you think the average Gazan has felt since 2005?
How would you feel if this was my retort to October 7th? That it's a war and innocent people get hurt?
So how should the surviving Gazans respond to the indiscriminate horror of the last 5 months?
He said it a month after the events, when the israeli crimes were in the open for all to see, that's hardly an immediate reaction.
feck man, It is easy to be 100% on the right side when you don't have any strings that attaches you to the wrong side (obviously my opinion about right and wrong), but when you have people involved certain aspects are not black and white anymore. Not on what is happening on Gaza but on the uncontrollable spiral that brought some people to be involved.
If I would be living in Israel and I would have people involved in october 7th and in the IDF onwards, even if I would think that what is happening in Gaza is absolutely in the wrong, I think it would be impossible to detach of certain feelings against gazans still and certain degree of justification of what is happening. I would be thorned and feel a bit schizophrenic
As much of the comments are very bad, we should leave space for growing. I think there is an obvious change of perspective and not everybody goes at the same speed
Can't speak for him,
but for me it took some 2-3 months to cool down and be able to convince myself that there's is no real existential threat and that there's no point nor reason to wish death on everyone from the other side.
Have you ever been through a similar experience?
With respect, your view feels somewhat clinical. [i.e one week is fine, a month is an outrage]
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Yes, exactly.
people who I personally know shot bullets in the past couple of months that killed both Hamas men & innocent babies. this is almost a guarantee.
Absolutely brutal.
Thanks for these words man.
I think this sentiment isn't expressed around here enough or at all, and eventually this is what makes people like me steer clear.
It's pretty simple, Palestinians never have the right to feel the same anger and sense of revenge. All the terror and lack of security they have been facing for a long time anywhere on their land should be met with suffering in silence.
Please, keep posting here, as much as you can.
Nothing in his recent posts tells me he changed his perspective to the point I would be capable of overlooking what he wrote.
Who do you mean by "everyone from the other side"? Because 3 months after hamas' terrorist attack, children in gaza were being slaughtered by the hundreds every single week. When something on that scale is happening, I don't have much sympathy for someone who justifies their acceptance of this with "I haven't cooled down yet".
I don't really care if it's a week or two months. When someone says they're ok with children being killed, I expect a really big change in perspective/behavior to "forgive" it. I haven't seen it yet.
I don't. It's a shameful, scummy comment. Stop and actually think for a moment what he actually fecking said. I would never, ever think that ethnic cleansing was a solution to any situation, it's just batshit insane.
I thought I was going crazy reading this justification. It's basically how we got so much genocidal rhetoric coming from inside Israel for months and it hasn't stopped by the way. Being right in the midst of it isn't an excuse, it's probably more reason to see the insanity of it and not be part of it.
No, I don't agree. I said or at the very least thought to myself the most horrible things you can imagine.
it was perfectly natural for the feelings to take over the mind when the shock hit. I remember writing here on October 8th or 9th that I was contemplating suicide. so my feelings led my mind to the most extreme place I'm familiar with.
other people- 2 of my brothers, as an example- wished death on e-v-e-r-y-one across the border.
completely understandable IMV, while nothing to be proud of.
We are complex human beings.
I wish you to never have to discover whether or not you can "see the insanity and not join" in when someone you love dies in the manner that people died on those first days.
But alas, agree to disagree.
Socking video. The West must do more, we can't just leave Israel alone.
While we're talking about whether wishing death on a population of 47% children is a normal reaction, 6 more aid seekers have been killed and dozens of others have been injured.
Hundreds have been killed while waiting for aid in the last few weeks, I still don't wish death for everyone on the other side.
Hundreds have been killed while waiting for aid in the last few weeks, I still don't wish death for everyone on the other side.
that's good.
I wish the majority of people would be able to be like that.
about yet more people dying... what the hell is left to say at this point?
Well, i think his comments toned down quite bit and there are points that shows he unequivocally things that what is happening in gaza is wrong. And not giving space grow only create a feck you reaction.
There are posters that are beyond repair and we all know who. But @Amir, despite the terrible things he said at least he sees beyond the madness lately. And though i am judging everybody wheb they comment, the intensity and the nationality can make me understand (but not agree) a bit some shitty comments in certain moments
But ill leave it hear. Despite out opinion, is interesting to hear other perspective than an echo chamber. And by other perspective i mean people with a certain degree of critical thinking, not the 2 infamous posters that only pollute with disinformation and dehumanizing opinions
I notice that this response has been largely ignored... Wouldn't want that cognitive dissonance to be dealt with now, would we?
Questions no one wants to answer with honesty and with the same logic and justification.
Me neither, but some people had grown in a warped reality that is not easy to escape
Free Palestine. End Apartheid.
Yeah, it doesn't mean I want it or support it, just that I fear that this will never end unless the Israelis and the Palestenians somehow go their seperate ways.
Pretty terrible, I'm sure. What have they done to try and improve their situation?
I would feel that you're an absolute idiot. Hamas's attack on IDF posts was one thing. But it also chose to go into towns who would have only had civilians.
I've no idea how to respond to that.
Oren is great. His whole channel is worth see.
It is possible, yes. But there is not much reevaluation in that post.
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Holding strong opinions against things exactly in the time when you need to (i.e. when you are provoked by something) is the only thing that really matters.
Espousing niceties up until things go to shit, and then reverting to the opposite kind of shows that the things you said previously didn't really mean anything when push comes to shove.
What's the difference between you and a truly horrible person in those moments, if you end up with the same opinions? Probably just the guilt you'd feel after the fact, but if you were in any position to exert influence/take action, there would be the same end result.
Being in the Israeli army and feeling awful about the stuff happening in Gaza is laughable, leave the fecking army and the genocidal apartheid country that army belongs to. They are so modern and moral I assume there is nothing stopping those people doing that?
Espousing niceties up until things go to shit, and then reverting to the opposite kind of shows that the things you said previously didn't really mean anything when push comes to shove.
What's the difference between you and a truly horrible person in those moments, if you end up with the same opinions? Probably just the guilt you'd feel after the fact, but if you were in any position to exert influence/take action, there would be the same end result.
Being in the Israeli army and feeling awful about the stuff happening in Gaza is laughable, leave the fecking army and the genocidal apartheid country that army belongs to. They are so modern and moral I assume there is nothing stopping those people doing that?
What can they do with Israel's boot on their neck? They're under a military blockade, prevented from working, prevented from having an airport, a seaport and so many other basic rights.
???
This is such a bizarre statement and devoid of the reality.
What do you think the IDF have been doing for the last 5 months? 12,000 kids and 11,000 women have died. They're starving the rest. How is that any different to what you think Hamas did? In fact, it's miles worse.
Because you and I both know the answer. You still believe there's one rule for Palestinians and one rule for Israelis. You can't accept that Palestinians should have the same basic civil rights as Israelis, and the fact that they don't means Israel will always be in the wrong.
Glazer has balls of steel.
All due respect, the word 'provoke' is EXTREMELY weak compared with being attacked and have your life and the lives of everyone you know in danger. With having everything in your world turn upside down. And while I really do not want to delegitimization your opinion and feelings in the matter, I think it's hard to judge unless you're put on the same spot.
At the time same, let's remember something here - This is just an internet forum. What someone writes, sometimes in the heat of the moment, means a lot less than what he actually does - or doesn't do.
Well, I'm not in the army, haven't been in uniform for 24 yearsm and had I been drafted for combat, I would have refused.
As for leaving the country, gladly. I've been working in sports journalism and editing for over 20 years and it's still the only thing I want to do. If anyone wants to offer me a job, despite the fact it might take some time to get my English up to journalism levels, I'm open to offers.
The reality of the matter is that even people who are most certainly considered left in Israel justified the war - at least at the beginning - because the horrors of October 7 were so terrible. That does not mean they are not left. And I guess you'll enjoy the column Gideon Levy wrote as a message to these people in Haaretz today:
--
Dear friends and former friends: It's time to sober up from the sobering up.
It was baseless to begin with, but now, nearly half a year after your "eyes were opened," it's time to return to reality. It's time to go back to seeing the whole picture, to reactivate the conscience and the moral compass that were shut off and stored away on October 7, and to see what has happened since then to us and, yes, to the Palestinians.
It's time to remove the blindfolds you put on, not wanting to see and not wanting to know what we're doing to Gaza, because you said that Gaza deserves it and its catastrophes no longer interest you.
https://www.haaretz.com/2024-02-28/...ctober-7/0000018d-efe6-d7f4-a3dd-efeeb8470000
You were angry, you felt humiliated, you were stunned, you were terrified, you were shocked, and you grieved on October 7. This was fully justified. It was a huge shock for everyone.
ראש הטופס
But the conclusions you derived from this shock were not just mistaken, they were the opposite of the conclusions that should have been drawn from the disaster.You don't come after people in their sorrow, certainly not Zionist leftists whose sorrow is their art, but it's time to shake off the shock and wake up. You thought that what happened on October 7 justifies anything? Well, it doesn't. You thought that now Hamas must be destroyed at all costs? Well, no. It's not just about justice, but about recognizing the limits of force.
It's not that you are evil and sadistic, or racist and messianic, like the right. You only thought that October 7 suddenly proved what the right always said: that there is no partner because the Palestinians are savages.
Five months should be enough for you to get over not only your gut reaction, but also your conclusions. October 7 needn't have changed any of your moral principles or your humanity. But it turned them inside out, which is a serious cause for concern about the steadfastness of your moral principles.
Hamas's vicious, barbaric attack on Israel does not change the basic situation in which we live: of a people that has been harassing and tyrannizing another people in different ways and at varying intensities for over a century now.
Gaza didn't change on October 7. It was one of the most miserable places on the planet before October 7 and became even more miserable after it.
Israel's responsibility for the fate of Gaza and its guilt did not change on that terrible day. It is not the only guilty party and does not bear full responsibility, but it has a decisive role in Gaza's fate.
The left cannot evade this responsibility and guilt. After the shock and anger and sorrow, it's time now to sober up from the sobering up and to look not only at what was done to us, as the Israeli media commands us to do day and night, but also at what we are doing to Gaza, and to the West Bank, since October 7.
No, our catastrophe does not make up for that, nothing in the world can make up for that. The right is celebrating Palestinian suffering, reveling in it and wanting more, while the left looks away and keeps dreadfully silent. It is still "sobering up." It's time to stop that.
What the whole world sees and understands should also be understood by at least part of what was once the camp of conscience and humanity. We won't go into the Zionist left's part in the occupation and apartheid, or dwell on its hypocrisy.
But how can an entire people avert its eyes from the horrors it is committing in its backyard, with no camp remaining that will cry out against them? How can such a brutal war go on and on without any opposition within Israeli society?
The Zionist left, which always wants to feel good about itself and consider itself enlightened, democratic and liberal, needs to remember that one day it will ask itself, or be asked by others: Where were you when it all happened? Where? You were still sobering up? It's time for that to end, because it's already getting late. Very late.
And also, having the boot of Hamas - which they voted for the last time an election took place in Gaza - on their neck...
I'm not saying I have any great suggetions. Just that they also have SOME responsibility for their situation. And now you complain about Israel not allowing them to work - well, prior to October 7 Israel actually allowed more and more people in Gaza to come work in Israel. Obviously, that's over now.
As childish as it might sound - Hamas started it. Going into towns and that nature party, shooting everyone on sight, knowing the only people around are civilians. That does not justify Israel's over-aggressive response. Just gives a little context.
If by saying 'you', you mean myself, then you are wrong. If you mean Israel as govenment and also many Israelis, I'm afraid you are right.
I have no doubt that Israel's treatment of the Palestenians over the years and decades has been completely wrong - even though the other side made plenty of mistakes as well.
Ah, the old "it all began when he punched me back" argument.
The US privately told Israel the kind of Rafah campaign it could support
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/13/us-would-back-a-limited-military-campaign-in-rafah-00146827
This is utterly laughable given the treatment that Palestinian civilians have been recieving for the last 100 years.