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Ah, the old "it all began when he punched me back" argument.

It's not even true either. Israel have been falsely imprisoning Palestine's including many children for fecking years.

Imagine being in their position and seeing your 13 year old kid arrested for no fecking reason. No shit people are going to be angry.
 
It's not even true either. Israel have been falsely imprisoning Palestine's including many children for fecking years.

Imagine being in their position and seeing your 13 year old kid arrested for no fecking reason. No shit people are going to be angry.


Yeah, exactly. Just erase all context because if not, you don't have a leg to stand on
 
Pretty terrible, I'm sure. What have they done to try and improve their situation?



I would feel that you're an absolute idiot. Hamas's attack on IDF posts was one thing. But it also chose to go into towns who would have only had civilians.



I've no idea how to respond to that.
What has the occupier done?
 
Amir isn't wrong that Hamas started it. We just have to define what 'it' is.

The scale of the October 7th attacks was wildly out of proportion to any recent incidents. You can reasonably claim that the degree of escalation is unjustifiable and therefore Hamas started 'it': this specific instance of armed conflict. As an analogy: if somebody shoves me and calls me names, I don't think I can shoot them in the head and claim they started "it".

The issue is that a lot of us see Israel's response as also being wildly out of proportion, which raises the question: are Israel continuing 'it', starting another 'it', or both. To continue the analogy, if I run away after shooting that guy in the head and the victim's cousin kills my wife and children, they are not merely 'reacting' to me.
 
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Amir isn't wrong that Hamas started it. We just have to define what 'it' is.

The scale of the October 7th attacks was wildly out of proportion to any recent incidents. You can reasonably claim that the degree of escalation is unjustifiable and therefore Hamas started 'it': this specific instance of armed conflict. As an analogy: if somebody shoves me and calls me names, I don't think I can shoot them in the head and claim they started "it".

The issue is that a lot of us see Israel's response as also being wildly out of proportion, which raises the question: are Israel continuing 'it', starting another 'it', or both. To continue the analogy, if I run away after shooting that guy in the head and the victim's cousin kills my wife and children, they are not merely 'reacting' to me.
They're shoving you and calling you names because you're abusing their family inside their home.
 
And also, having the boot of Hamas - which they voted for the last time an election took place in Gaza - on their neck...

I'm not saying I have any great suggetions. Just that they also have SOME responsibility for their situation. And now you complain about Israel not allowing them to work - well, prior to October 7 Israel actually allowed more and more people in Gaza to come work in Israel. Obviously, that's over now.
You can't throw Hamas at everything as some get out clause. They're a symptom of the situation.

And you can 100% blame Israel for the situation as they hold all the cards. They've strangled the economy and workforce in Gaza, not Hamas. They've limited basic movement for Palestinians there, not Hamas. They've condensed a 2 million population into the space of a tiny enclave.

I mean this is from 2009, I can't imagine how much worse it is now:

Israel now allows only 30 to 40 commercial items to enter Gaza compared to 4,000 approved products prior to June 2006. According to the Israeli journalist, Amira Hass, Gazans still are denied many commodities (a policy in effect long before the December assault): Building materials (including wood for windows and doors), electrical appliances (such as refrigerators and washing machines), spare parts for cars and machines, fabrics, threads, needles, candles, matches, mattresses, sheets, blankets, cutlery, crockery, cups, glasses, musical instruments, books, tea, coffee, sausages, semolina, chocolate, sesame seeds, nuts, milk products in large packages, most baking products, light bulbs, crayons, clothing, and shoes.

The Peril of Forgetting Gaza | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson (thecrimson.com)

No airport, no seaport, and no way out. And that's Hamas' fault? Nonsense.

And don't get me started on the West Bank....!


As childish as it might sound - Hamas started it. Going into towns and that nature party, shooting everyone on sight, knowing the only people around are civilians. That does not justify Israel's over-aggressive response. Just gives a little context.
How many Palestinians were killed at the hands of Israels in 2023 prior to October 7th? How many Palestinians are murdered on average by Israelis on an annual basis? How many of those killed were either kids or civilians? That's the context.

If by saying 'you', you mean myself, then you are wrong. If you mean Israel as govenment and also many Israelis, I'm afraid you are right.

I have no doubt that Israel's treatment of the Palestenians over the years and decades has been completely wrong - even though the other side made plenty of mistakes as well.
The Israeli side holds all the cards. Not the Palestinians. If you dehumanise and brutalise a race of people of course they will resist. It's human nature.
 
Amir isn't wrong that Hamas started it. We just have to define what 'it' is.

The scale of the October 7th attacks was wildly out of proportion to any recent incidents. You can reasonably claim that the degree of escalation is unjustifiable and therefore Hamas started 'it': this specific instance of armed conflict. As an analogy: if somebody shoves me and calls me names, I don't think I can shoot them in the head and claim they started "it".

The issue is that a lot of us see Israel's response as also being wildly out of proportion, which raises the question: are Israel continuing 'it', starting another 'it', or both. To continue the analogy, if I run away after shooting that guy in the head and the victim's cousin kills my wife and children, they are not merely 'reacting' to me.
Just a reminder that 2023 was on track to being the deadliest year for children (almost all of whom were Palestinian) in the 'conflict' before October 7. The escalations were progressive and constant and they all came from the Israelis until Hamas erupted in the manner they did and Israel went many steps beyond that in the months since.
 
Amir isn't wrong that Hamas started it. We just have to define what 'it' is.

The scale of the October 7th attacks was wildly out of proportion to any recent incidents. You can reasonably claim that the degree of escalation is unjustifiable and therefore Hamas started 'it': this specific instance of armed conflict. As an analogy: if somebody shoves me and calls me names, I don't think I can shoot them in the head and claim they started "it".

The issue is that a lot of us see Israel's response as also being wildly out of proportion, which raises the question: are Israel continuing 'it', starting another 'it', or both. To continue the analogy, if I run away after shooting that guy in the head and the victim's cousin kills my wife and children, they are not merely 'reacting' to me.
The Great March of Return was a peaceful protest at the border of Gaza in 2018.

Israel killed over 200 Palestinians, and intentionally maimed countless more.

Distilling everything to Oct 7th is inaccurate, and it does a disservice to what Palestinians have had to endure for so long.

@Amir - that is one episode of many 'its' that Israel has done on a continuous basis since 1947.
 
All due respect, the word 'provoke' is EXTREMELY weak compared with being attacked and have your life and the lives of everyone you know in danger. With having everything in your world turn upside down. And while I really do not want to delegitimization your opinion and feelings in the matter, I think it's hard to judge unless you're put on the same spot.

At the time same, let's remember something here - This is just an internet forum. What someone writes, sometimes in the heat of the moment, means a lot less than what he actually does - or doesn't do.



Well, I'm not in the army, haven't been in uniform for 24 yearsm and had I been drafted for combat, I would have refused.

As for leaving the country, gladly. I've been working in sports journalism and editing for over 20 years and it's still the only thing I want to do. If anyone wants to offer me a job, despite the fact it might take some time to get my English up to journalism levels, I'm open to offers.

The reality of the matter is that even people who are most certainly considered left in Israel justified the war - at least at the beginning - because the horrors of October 7 were so terrible. That does not mean they are not left. And I guess you'll enjoy the column Gideon Levy wrote as a message to these people in Haaretz today:

--

Dear friends and former friends: It's time to sober up from the sobering up.

It was baseless to begin with, but now, nearly half a year after your "eyes were opened," it's time to return to reality. It's time to go back to seeing the whole picture, to reactivate the conscience and the moral compass that were shut off and stored away on October 7, and to see what has happened since then to us and, yes, to the Palestinians.

It's time to remove the blindfolds you put on, not wanting to see and not wanting to know what we're doing to Gaza, because you said that Gaza deserves it and its catastrophes no longer interest you.

https://www.haaretz.com/2024-02-28/...ctober-7/0000018d-efe6-d7f4-a3dd-efeeb8470000
You were angry, you felt humiliated, you were stunned, you were terrified, you were shocked, and you grieved on October 7. This was fully justified. It was a huge shock for everyone.

ראש הטופס​
But the conclusions you derived from this shock were not just mistaken, they were the opposite of the conclusions that should have been drawn from the disaster.

You don't come after people in their sorrow, certainly not Zionist leftists whose sorrow is their art, but it's time to shake off the shock and wake up. You thought that what happened on October 7 justifies anything? Well, it doesn't. You thought that now Hamas must be destroyed at all costs? Well, no. It's not just about justice, but about recognizing the limits of force.

It's not that you are evil and sadistic, or racist and messianic, like the right. You only thought that October 7 suddenly proved what the right always said: that there is no partner because the Palestinians are savages.

Five months should be enough for you to get over not only your gut reaction, but also your conclusions. October 7 needn't have changed any of your moral principles or your humanity. But it turned them inside out, which is a serious cause for concern about the steadfastness of your moral principles.

Hamas's vicious, barbaric attack on Israel does not change the basic situation in which we live: of a people that has been harassing and tyrannizing another people in different ways and at varying intensities for over a century now.

Gaza didn't change on October 7. It was one of the most miserable places on the planet before October 7 and became even more miserable after it.

Israel's responsibility for the fate of Gaza and its guilt did not change on that terrible day. It is not the only guilty party and does not bear full responsibility, but it has a decisive role in Gaza's fate.

The left cannot evade this responsibility and guilt. After the shock and anger and sorrow, it's time now to sober up from the sobering up and to look not only at what was done to us, as the Israeli media commands us to do day and night, but also at what we are doing to Gaza, and to the West Bank, since October 7.

No, our catastrophe does not make up for that, nothing in the world can make up for that. The right is celebrating Palestinian suffering, reveling in it and wanting more, while the left looks away and keeps dreadfully silent. It is still "sobering up." It's time to stop that.

What the whole world sees and understands should also be understood by at least part of what was once the camp of conscience and humanity. We won't go into the Zionist left's part in the occupation and apartheid, or dwell on its hypocrisy.

But how can an entire people avert its eyes from the horrors it is committing in its backyard, with no camp remaining that will cry out against them? How can such a brutal war go on and on without any opposition within Israeli society?

The Zionist left, which always wants to feel good about itself and consider itself enlightened, democratic and liberal, needs to remember that one day it will ask itself, or be asked by others: Where were you when it all happened? Where? You were still sobering up? It's time for that to end, because it's already getting late. Very late.
I'm sorry, my post was not explicitly aimed at you, it was addressing other poster's comments as well, and generalising to a degree what matters when faced with very difficult situations.

Of course, it's easy for me to say these things as an outsider, and I appreciate your posts on the topic, but the reality is that being steadfast in your morals in those situations is very hard, that's why most people aren't.

I find it hard to personally agree that someone who truly wants peace and equal treatment of Palestinians can get behind any form of 'war' enacted by the IDF because of how the operate, but that's a difference of opinion.

Thank you for posting that article.
 
I believe that was Owlo who said that. apologies if I'm myself am mistaken.
I don't know what I think, I'm doing my best not to think about anything, which is obviously impossible.
My mental state is in the gutter if I'm honest.
Trying to keep focusing on my daily stuff, not watch the news.
Haven't been to a single demo, not to stop the operation, not the end the occupation, not for the return of the hostages, not the ones calling for Bibi's head.

Have also taken a break from this thread due to the info that is presented here, it's absolutely brutal.

At any rate, the reasonable Israeli voice as seen by this forum probably represents 0-1% of the Israeli population.
very very hard times.

It was very clear from the beginning that the support for Israel would vanish after the first couple of weeks. I was certain that "the world" would stop Israel from staying in Gaza for months on end, and i thought that only a much smaller part of it would turn into a ghost-town.

And it was also obvious that this thread will turn more and more towards a certain direction, the more it goes on.

I'm 99.99999999% sure that I would be vehemently against Israel if I were looking from the outside in.
But since I'm not, there's a real mess in my head.
Some of those soldiers are my friends.

If I wasn't prone to depression from a young age, i too would have been drafted to a field-unit as I'm physically healthy,
and would probably have spent the last couple of months either inside Gaza or on the Lebanese border.
you guys would have been writing horrors about me...
And I would be there, probably believing that what I do is right and just.

[As an aside- this best-friend of mine who serves in one of the most elite units of the IDF that I wrote about in the first days of it all, how I feared for his life... 5 months on and he is appalled by what's going on in Gaza, as someone who's been there. he would have echoed everything Amir wrote in his last post.]
Apologies for misquoting you.

I admire the honesty of your stance, and I hope you're well and tackling those depression demons (I know how crippling they can be).
 
Reports that Netanyahu initiated the plan to send aid by sea and that he and Biden are cooperating to make it a reality raise fears that the temporary port is being built for another purpose.

Such a plan would shift responsibility and condemnation away from Israel for refusing to allow aid to Gaza.

It may also open the door to ethnic cleansing.

On 13 October, one week before Netanyahu suggested delivering aid by sea, the Israeli Ministry of Intelligence leaked a plan to forcibly deport Gaza's 2.3 million inhabitants under a humanitarian guise. The plan proposed making Gaza so dangerous that its residents would voluntarily choose to leave the bombarded and besieged strip as refugees to Egypt, Greece, Spain, or even Canada.


https://thecradle.co/articles/netanyahu-behind-biden-plan-to-deliver-gaza-aid-by-sea


Aid in one hand, money for Israeli bombs in the other. You'd have to be minimally suspect of any American aid project here.

The existence of the document does not necessarily indicate that its recommendations are being implemented by Israel’s security establishment.
The Ministry of Intelligence, headed by Gila Gamliel of the Likud party, does not control any of Israel’s intelligence agencies, but independently prepares studies and policy papers, which are distributed for consideration by the government and its security bodies.
However, recent statements by Israeli government officials and actions by the Israeli army in Gaza suggest the plan is indeed being implemented. Since 7 October, Israeli officials have repeatedly issued warnings to Palestinians to move to southern Gaza in advance of a looming ground invasion

https://thecradle.co/articles/leaked-israeli-plan-to-ethnically-cleanse-gaza
 


A deeply broken and morally repugnant society

9/11ed. Bush had support verging toward 100% in the months after that event. We know what became of that. The same thing awaits. The middle will fall out of that inflated number the more Israel is despised (no other term for it) globally and is not received even within the EU as it used to be owing to public pressure in just about every state except Israel. North Korea style status awaits it, except it isn't as important, if you take the world into account, economically, or strategically, as South Korea. It's only harming itself, in public. What were arguments before even in quarters inclined toward Israel, are now conventions, or common sense. That's the biggest defeat Israel has ever inflicted upon itself. Years and years of propaganda gone out the window in about five months. They've opened themselves up to international audit, basically, and they will be found wanting.
 




This is terrorism and barbarism, calling it over the top and too forceful is a joke.
 
Ah, the old "it all began when he punched me back" argument.

Unfortunately, this is where @The Corinthian dragged me to by comparing the direct attacks on Israeli towns which targetted civilians only because there was no one else around to the attacks by the IDF - which have been absolutely too aggressive and harmed way too many civilians, but did not target them directly.
 
It's not even true either. Israel have been falsely imprisoning Palestine's including many children for fecking years.

Imagine being in their position and seeing your 13 year old kid arrested for no fecking reason. No shit people are going to be angry.

True. But has that been happening in Gaza recently prior to October 7? Was that, in any way, a motive in the October 7 attack?
 
What has the occupier done?

Dragged Israeli settlers out of the Gaza strip about 20 years ago, and took the IDF out of the strip as well at the same time.

In response, over the next few years, rocket fire toward Israel increased.

I'm not clearing Israel here, just pointing out that while its responsible for a lot of the blame - there's another side here that hasn't exactly been helpful, to say the least.
 
You can't throw Hamas at everything as some get out clause. They're a symptom of the situation.

They started as a symptom. They've become part of the problem, as a terrorist organization placed right on our border.

And you can 100% blame Israel for the situation as they hold all the cards. They've strangled the economy and workforce in Gaza, not Hamas. They've limited basic movement for Palestinians there, not Hamas. They've condensed a 2 million population into the space of a tiny enclave.

We also left the Gaza strip around 2004 ago, and they responded with more and more rocket fire, landing further and further in Israel.

Over the last couple of years, the Israeli govenment has allowed more and more people from Gaza to come and work in Israel. They reponded with October 7.

I'm not saying Israel has done enough, I'm just saying that even when it did the right thing, the reponse was more and more terror. Not because of the people of Gaza - but because they are ruled by Hamas. Now, I wish we could take the two apart - Hamas and the civilians, many of whom are innocent - but they are intertwined.

How many Palestinians were killed at the hands of Israels in 2023 prior to October 7th? How many Palestinians are murdered on average by Israelis on an annual basis? How many of those killed were either kids or civilians? That's the context.


The Israeli side holds all the cards. Not the Palestinians. If you dehumanise and brutalise a race of people of course they will resist. It's human nature.

They resist, and we respond - which is also human nature. 2022 and 2023 were also pretty bloody years in Israel prior to October 7, due to a large increase in terror attacks. Someone needs to break the cycle, but unfortunately the Hamas attack only increased it's velosity - which was always the only thing it was going to do.
 
Of course, it's easy for me to say these things as an outsider, and I appreciate your posts on the topic, but the reality is that being steadfast in your morals in those situations is very hard, that's why most people aren't.

It's always easy to take a theoreical stance and far harder when it becomes reality.

For instance - and this is obviously very different compared with the issue of this thread - how many United fans thought in 2013 they'd never call for a manager's head, only to find themselves do that time and time again since after experiencing the regimes of Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Solskjaer and ETH?
 
Unfortunately, this is where @The Corinthian dragged me to by comparing the direct attacks on Israeli towns which targetted civilians only because there was no one else around to the attacks by the IDF - which have been absolutely too aggressive and harmed way too many civilians, but did not target them directly.
Do you genuinely believe this?
 
Do you genuinely believe this?

The delusion is real here. We've been dropping tens of thousands of bombs on your homes but it's not to target you or your children. We've also been sniping children, women, the elderly, and firing at people waiting for aid but it's just for fun, you aren't an actual target here.
 
I believe that was Owlo who said that. apologies if I'm myself am mistaken.
I don't know what I think, I'm doing my best not to think about anything, which is obviously impossible.
My mental state is in the gutter if I'm honest.
Trying to keep focusing on my daily stuff, not watch the news.
Haven't been to a single demo, not to stop the operation, not the end the occupation, not for the return of the hostages, not the ones calling for Bibi's head.

Have also taken a break from this thread due to the info that is presented here, it's absolutely brutal.

At any rate, the reasonable Israeli voice as seen by this forum probably represents 0-1% of the Israeli population.
very very hard times.

It was very clear from the beginning that the support for Israel would vanish after the first couple of weeks. I was certain that "the world" would stop Israel from staying in Gaza for months on end, and i thought that only a much smaller part of it would turn into a ghost-town.

And it was also obvious that this thread will turn more and more towards a certain direction, the more it goes on.

I'm 99.99999999% sure that I would be vehemently against Israel if I were looking from the outside in.
But since I'm not, there's a real mess in my head.
Some of those soldiers are my friends.

If I wasn't prone to depression from a young age, i too would have been drafted to a field-unit as I'm physically healthy,
and would probably have spent the last couple of months either inside Gaza or on the Lebanese border.
you guys would have been writing horrors about me...
And I would be there, probably believing that what I do is right and just.

[As an aside- this best-friend of mine who serves in one of the most elite units of the IDF that I wrote about in the first days of it all, how I feared for his life... 5 months on and he is appalled by what's going on in Gaza, as someone who's been there. he would have echoed everything Amir wrote in his last post.]

No one is responsible or should feel guilt for the actions of their people, i've pushed that before when it was random Russians targeted. Collective responsibility/blame is a dark human instinct we all have to push back on.

That said it's also impossible for anyone to be objective and not have their judgement skewed by their environment. In that regard some here expect too much from our Israeli posters, it's one thing to disregard points as biased but when judging character or motive we all need to be mindful of the position from which opinions are given. We can challenge without hounding and recognise we might not act any different.

There's a very good book by Zimbardo (of stanford prison experiment fame) called 'how good people turn evil' where he discusses events including genocides, military prisons etc thats always stuck with me. We often understate how easy it is for collective situational forces to push good ordinary men to do bad things, the environment dictates more than we're comfortable with (and if we do its to excuse 'us' and never 'them'). Ultimately most of the blame sits with leadership and those with influence.
 
the attacks by the IDF - which have been absolutely too aggressive and harmed way too many civilians, but did not target them directly.
The worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see
 
As childish as it might sound - Hamas started it. Going into towns and that nature party, shooting everyone on sight, knowing the only people around are civilians. That does not justify Israel's over-aggressive response. Just gives a little context.

That is not childish. is plainly wrong. Israel started in 1948 and continuously relentlessly killed civilians including kids every single year. We could go about illegal settling and keeping Gaza in controlled miserable conditions. It did not start in October 7
 
They started as a symptom. They've become part of the problem, as a terrorist organization placed right on our border.



We also left the Gaza strip around 2004 ago, and they responded with more and more rocket fire, landing further and further in Israel.

Over the last couple of years, the Israeli govenment has allowed more and more people from Gaza to come and work in Israel. They reponded with October 7.

I'm not saying Israel has done enough, I'm just saying that even when it did the right thing, the reponse was more and more terror. Not because of the people of Gaza - but because they are ruled by Hamas. Now, I wish we could take the two apart - Hamas and the civilians, many of whom are innocent - but they are intertwined.



They resist, and we respond - which is also human nature. 2022 and 2023 were also pretty bloody years in Israel prior to October 7, due to a large increase in terror attacks. Someone needs to break the cycle, but unfortunately the Hamas attack only increased it's velosity - which was always the only thing it was going to do.
Would you stop. Israel backed Hamas because they're politically very useful to the Israeli regime.

You're right in saying that Israel left Gaza 20 years ago but they also put a complete blockade into place, denied them statehood, denied them the right to leave and periodically go back in to "mow the lawn".

It's really nice of Israel to allow Gazans out to work for Israel, further humiliating them.

Israel has never done the right thing in regards to Gaza and for you to say they have is insulting to anyone with a brain.

No, it is not human nature to subjugate an entire population, that is the nature of a fecking psycho.
 
Unfortunately, this is where @The Corinthian dragged me to by comparing the direct attacks on Israeli towns which targetted civilians only because there was no one else around to the attacks by the IDF - which have been absolutely too aggressive and harmed way too many civilians, but did not target them directly.
Just coming at this from a technical angle, we know that Israel has incredibly accurate munitions, that can hit targets to within a couple of metres. We also know they have incredibly accurate surveillance/targeting equipment, that can accurately tell them exactly what person is where, at a given time.

If those 2 statements can be considered true, can you really say that the IDF haven't knowingly been killing civilians directly?
 
Do you genuinely believe this?

Do you genuinely believe anything this guy has said?

I give him some kudos for reeling in a couple of posters.

Reading back his woe us points and some of what others have rationalized EVERYTHING is justified because "poor me".