Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

owlo said:
It's not a detail to be considered though. It's not a point system. Any one of those reasons is valid for application.
Click to expand...
You're creating an argument out of nothing here.

If it is a valid reason for application, then it's something that's considered for an application. I really don't get your issue here, aside from wanting to play around with a word.
owlo said:
Arab Israelis can and do have firearms licenses in Israel. It's actually encouraged Illegal weapon rates are so high.
Click to expand...
Well at least they're allowed that.
owlo said:
You're correct. Living in a settlement (or at least many of them) is a valid reason for a firearms license if pre-requisites are met.
Click to expand...
So basically when I visited the West Bank, my perception of them being nice, hilltop forts was fairly accurate.
 
calodo2003 said:
They’ve probably only just arrived, doubt they would be able to stop a ground offensive if it is this far along in the planning / execution stage.

As far as intention, I’d say the latter would be the focus.
Click to expand...
They’ve only just arrived today, it’s going to be hard to get in between them when they start firing rockets. I think it’s up to Netanyahu to pull back now we should be seeing more talking from Joe Biden imo he’s managed this all wrong.
 
JPRouve said:
I have a slightly different take more than being scary, it's predictable. Over the course of history humans have mainly been a bunch of sadistic savages who from time to time are convinced to behave, I would be willing to say that out of all animals humans are the meanest and the only ones that could be described as monsters.
Click to expand...

As a sidenote: 300,000 years ago there were 9 human species. Around that time Homo Sapiens developed. Now, only us remains. We propably eradicated all those others. We will not stop until we eradicate ourselves too.
 
JPRouve said:
I have a slightly different take more than being scary, it's predictable. Over the course of history humans have mainly been a bunch of sadistic savages who from time to time are convinced to behave, I would be willing to say that out of all animals humans are the meanest and the only ones that could be described as monsters.
Click to expand...

Is that predictability not terrifying to you though? The fact that Jimmy down the street could easily be reprogrammed to raze carthage or rape and pillage in Stockholm. And that out of 100 Jimmy's, about 95 would do so.
 
owlo said:
Is that predictability not terrifying to you though? The fact that Jimmy down the street could easily be reprogrammed to raze carthage or rape and pillage in Stockholm. And that out of 100 Jimmy's, about 95 would do so.
Click to expand...

No, it's part of life. And I don't really exclude myself from the lunacy.
 
Twitter chatter suggests an invasion might happen. As soon as Hamas launched those rockets had a feeling we'll see something drastic.
 
Suv666 said:
Twitter chatter suggests an invasion might happen. As soon as Hamas launched those rockets had a feeling we'll see something drastic.
Click to expand...
Perfect scenario for Netanyahu. Perpetual war-time government means his approaching corruption trial and political rival's attempt to form a government is now well and truly derailed.
 
This seems to be the latest trend on social media. People sharing meme type infographic stuff with no idea if it's correct themselves. Loads of 'boycott these brands if you're boycotting Isreal' posts and the like, that the people sharing won't even do themselves. I suppose it's still a good thing that people are paying attention to it though
 
Deery said:
They’ve only just arrived today, it’s going to be hard to get in between them when they start firing rockets. I think it’s up to Netanyahu to pull back now we should be seeing more talking from Joe Biden imo he’s managed this all wrong.
Click to expand...
Rockets are already flying, though.
 
calodo2003 said:
Why don’t Hamas position their mobile rocket launchers outside of the most populated areas?
Click to expand...
Because they couldn't give a lesser shit about innocent Palestinian civilians getting slaughtered in retaliation. They literally want to use them as human shields. They are terrorist scum who simply want indiscriminate annihilation.
 
calodo2003 said:
That is an expected outcome when this occurs...



Why don’t Hamas position their mobile rocket launchers outside of the most populated areas?
Click to expand...

Not that I'm endorsing or supporting these rocket attacks, but I don't think you realise how small and densely populated the Gaza strip is. If they wanted them out of sight then there's not a whole lot of places to position them. Having them out in the open in say Gaza beach would just make them easy targets for Israeli strikes, which would completely nullify their guerilla tactics. It's pretty scummy of them to disregard the human life around them and in Israel, but what do you expect from people who've had their dignity stripped and are backed into a corner.
 
owlo said:
Yes. :( And it's scary how easy it is for people to be radicalised and turned to monsters.
Click to expand...

That's the reality, we can all judge but if anyone hear claims they wouldn't succumb to violence under the injustices and tragedy imposed on Palestinians they're naive.

The only way you stop the cycle is to reduce the injustices to start with. The rest of the world is happy to ignore these acts and then act surprised when violence breaks out.
 
Moby said:
Because they couldn't give a lesser shit about innocent Palestinian civilians getting slaughtered in retaliation. They literally want to use them as human shields. They are terrorist scum who simply want indiscriminate annihilation.
Click to expand...
I had a Patriot missile battery positioned in a field across from my house once for a week. I had no fear of being killed by an incoming enemy bomb or missile as I was living on the coast of Georgia at the time. The Patriot is also a defensive weapon system.

I can only imagine how helpless I would feel when a protector wheeled an offensive weapon system to within 100 feet off my house & fired it off.

Just insane.
 
calodo2003 said:
Rockets are already flying, though.
Click to expand...
Hamas said they’d stop if Israel stop though, then Biden comes out with the Israel have the right to defend themselves line giving Netanyahu the green light so to speak.
 
Kaos said:
Not that I'm endorsing or supporting these rocket attacks, but I don't think you realise how small and densely populated the Gaza strip is. If they wanted them out of sight then there's not a whole lot of places to position them. Having them out in the open in say Gaza beach would just make them easy targets for Israeli strikes, which would completely nullify their guerilla tactics. It's pretty scummy of them to disregard the human life around them and in Israel, but what do you expect from people who've had their dignity stripped and are backed into a corner.
Click to expand...
I do realize how small & densely populated Gaza is. These ‘shoot & scoot’ systems could be
deployed on a field or a park. There’s two systems in that clip literally at a neighborhood intersection.

This then goes to my question of what one expects the other combatant to do in response. The clip earlier of the building being felled is an example of extreme restraint of force in a densely populated urban area.

The horrors of this conflict are shared & owned by both sides.
 
Raoul said:
For obvious reasons
Click to expand...
The reasons being that it's one of the most densely populated places on earth, with over 2 million people living in a strip of land which can fit into London about 4 times. Where the exchange of goods and services between the borders is almost nigh on impossible? Those reasons? In which case, I agree.
 
Deery said:
Hamas said they’d stop if Israel stop though, then Biden comes out with the Israel have the right to defend themselves line giving Netanyahu the green light so to speak.
Click to expand...

Biden wouldn't be able to stop the Israeli side from finishing whatever they are doing. It would put a bit more pressure on them, but they don't really have any impetus to listen to Biden since they knows the American public are pro-Israeli.
 
Deery said:
Hamas said they’d stop if Israel stop though, then Biden comes out with the Israel have the right to defend themselves line giving Netanyahu the green light so to speak.
Click to expand...
Then we saw the biggest barrage in recent times last night.
 
Raoul said:
Ultimately, if there’s no such thing as enforceable international law, then concepts like illegal and extremist will be framed by the entities in power. In the US, the framing is one of an internationally recognized nation state and US ally, being rocket attacked by a terrorist organization (as defined by the State Department, EU, and various other Democratic nations). This ostensibly frames the conflict as being between a nation state and terror group, which provides politicians in the west more than sufficient moral leverage to continue backing the Israeli side. So at the end of the day, the rules are defined by those in power.
Click to expand...

Excellent post.

Tragically this is a perfect summation for why the media coverage and international political reaction to the occupation and aggression has been so woeful.

As well as the issue of international law you correctly identified, I think that there's also a cultural and historical element. Decades of the 'war on terror' has conditioned western observers to see Arab resistance through the lense of the Arab terrorist. There's also the similarities between the settler colonial policies of Israel and the founding of the United States and treatment of North America's indigenous population.

I can't prove it, but it certainly feels to me like the cultural lense of the west is another equally powerful factor in why the BBC and CNN have this week subjected their Palestinian guests to the usual 'what do you have to say about Hamas rockets' routine.
 
rotherham_red said:
The reasons being that it's one of the most densely populated places on earth, with over 2 million people living in a strip of land which can fit into London about 4 times. Where the exchange of goods and services between the borders is almost nigh on impossible? Those reasons? In which case, I agree.
Click to expand...

Its standard guerrilla warfare. They don't mind using surrounding infrastructure to their advantage, irrespective of death or destruction.
 
calodo2003 said:
That is an expected outcome when this occurs...




Why doesn’t Hamas position their mobile rocket launchers outside of the most populated areas?
Click to expand...


Human/moral shields. The sad reality is that if Hamas or any palestinian has the stupidity to leave the cover of civil habitations with mid range rockets, Tzahal will destroy them in a matter of minutes if not seconds. I'm not defending palestinians but it is a form of midrange guerilla warfare that allow them to have a chance to hurt the opposing side, the alternative being to quickly die or give up.
 
Lebowski said:
Excellent post.

Tragically this is a perfect summation for why the media coverage and international political reaction to the occupation and aggression has been so woeful.

As well as the issue of international law you correctly identified, I think that there's also a cultural and historical element. Decades of the 'war on terror' has conditioned western observers to see Arab resistance through the lense of the Arab terrorist. There's also the similarities between the settler colonial policies of Israel and the founding of the United States and treatment of North America's indigenous population.

I can't prove it, but it certainly feels to me like the cultural lense of the west is another equally powerful factor in why the BBC and CNN have this week subjected their Palestinian guests to the usual 'what do you have to say about Hamas rockets' routine.
Click to expand...

The coverage of this entire thing in the US has been surprisingly non-existent. CNN have done a few reports here and there, which were interspersed with other domestic political stories. The only guy really placing a lot of emphasis on this has been Mehdi Hasan's show on Peacock.
 
Raoul said:
Biden wouldn't be able to stop the Israeli side from finishing whatever they are doing. It would put a bit more pressure on them, but they don't really have any impetus to listen to Biden since they knows the American public are pro-Israeli.
Click to expand...
Should be still calling for calm but and trying to negotiate instead of inciting more bombing.
 
Time and human ignorance doing it's thing for the overall depopulation program. There are less degrading scenes in cramped zoo with animals fighting that in this tribalistic pisser. There's literally no hope for this place.

Carpet bomb the whole thing and let Amish live there, the only scandal you'll hear is that the butter rolling machine is broken.

Same events leading to same discussions over and over...
 
JPRouve said:
Human/moral shields. The sad reality is that if Hamas or any palestinian has the stupidity to leave the cover of civil habitations with mid range rockets, Tzahal will destroy them in a matter of minutes if not seconds. I'm not defending palestinians but it is a form of midrange guerilla warfare that allow them to have a chance to hurt the opposing side, the alternative being to quickly die or give up.
Click to expand...
No doubt.

As I said earlier in a post, I understand the tactics of such warfare. As a strategy, it trends towards self-defeatism, but tactically it has some merit.

But thinking that resultant civilian death in a densely populated area being used for cover of the weapon system / military infrastructure of the protector is a shock or an outrage is a bit odd to me. Such collateral damage is absolutely expected when such an environment is created.
 
Both Israel and the Palestinians need their own Gandhi's. A two-state solution solution was viable in the past now it just looks like it's slipping away.
 
Raoul said:
The coverage of this entire thing in the US has been surprisingly non-existent. CNN have done a few reports here and there, which were interspersed with other domestic political stories. The only guy really placing a lot of emphasis on this has been Mehdi Hasan's show on Peacock.
Click to expand...
Agreed, it's the usual out of sight out of mind and of the small amount of US TV reporting I've seen, it's been exactly along the frame you've laid out.

The clip I had in mind when I mentioned CNN was the Mohammed El Kurd interview that went viral yesterday.

 
calodo2003 said:
I do realize how small & densely populated Gaza is. These ‘shoot & scoot’ systems could be
deployed on a field or a park. There’s two systems in that clip literally at a neighborhood intersection.

This then goes to my question of what one expects the other combatant to do in response. The clip earlier of the building being felled is an example of extreme restraint of force in a densely populated urban area.

The horrors of this conflict are shared & owned by both sides.
Click to expand...
It's a tough question to answer, but my viewpoint is this - while Hamas are to blame for starting the latest volley of missile strikes between Israel and Gaza, they didn't start this cycle of violence. As has been a recurring theme, this was started with a systemic process of looking to uproot Palestinians from their homes, this time in Sheikh Jarrah, as well as subjecting them to further humiliation in Jerusalem, provoking the (expectedly) radicalised elements of the Palestinian population to hit back with what they deem to be the most effective way, as destructive as it is for them. Its worth remembering that while this all started in the late 40s, Hamas were only formed in 1988, filling in the vacuum to represent an increasingly repressed and desperate Palestinian population, who's resistance prior to the likes of Hamas was largely a secular one taking a far less extreme modus, and one that was systemically sapped thanks to the US' allies like the United States.

I just find it infuriatingly frustrating when the narrative starts with Hamas' rocket attacks. I find it disingenuous and devoid of the context of the whats and whys of everything that's currently happening.
 
calodo2003 said:
No doubt.

As I said earlier in a post, I understand the tactics of such warfare. As a strategy, it trends towards self-defeatism, but tactically it has some merit.

But thinking that resultant civilian death in a densely populated area being used for cover of the weapon system / military infrastructure of the protector is a shock or an outrage is a bit odd to me. Such collateral damage is absolutely expected when such an environment is created.
Click to expand...

That sounds a lot like you're saying, well if they fight back then civilian deaths are their own fault. They can't realistically move those rockets anywhere else.
 
Deery said:
After Israel had blown up an orphanage and housing tower block though.
Click to expand...
Inside an urban area in which legitimate military targets are consciously placed. These buildings were collateral damage or error (as it seems the orphanage was) or intended (as it seems the tower was).

The horrors are owned by both sides.
 
Shamana said:
Both Israel and the Palestinians need their own Gandhi's. A two-state solution solution was viable in the past now it just looks like it's slipping away.
Click to expand...

Certainly not a Gandhi but an Israeli killed their own man who was about to make peace, just like a Hindu who killed Gandhi.
 
Smores said:
That sounds a lot like you're saying, well if they fight back then civilian deaths are their own fault. They can't realistically move those rockets anywhere else.
Click to expand...

They can tell the civilians to evacuate.
 
Foxbatt said:
Certainly not a Gandhi but an Israeli killed their own man who was about to make peace, just like a Hindu who killed Gandhi.
Click to expand...

Well I'm short on historical examples. Dalai Lama is well and good but he never got Tibet back for obvious reasons(5 mil population vs 1,5 bil)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.