Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

MacabbiUnited said:
Private citizens are not allowed to own weapons in Israel, and AK-47 is not even in our army's arsenal, let alone a citizen. I dont know where you have been to, I dont know what you think you saw.
I live here, I grew up here, I worked with arabs my entire life, i go out on Fridays with arab friends. Is everything perfect? No. Are there crazy extremists? Yes, on both sides. But the picture you are trying to paint here is so distorted and not connected to reality that its actually frightnening.
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What about all the pics we see of settlers carrying weapons ? Is that also illegal ?
 
MacabbiUnited said:
If you were questioned by someone in a border crossing, than he works for the defense ministry, thuse not a private citizen.
To own a gun here you need to be employed by the goverment in defense duties or be an active member of the army, so making it seem like every citizen can walk around with a machine gun is a blatant lie.
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I didn't say he was a private citizen, I said he was in plain clothes. I saw others in plain clothes in my time there too carrying guns, though as I said, they may all have just been plain clothes officers/ reservists.

Again, the links I posted do not fit with what you say at all so I don't know why you're persisting with this idea that private citizens cannot own guns in Israel. Unless you're defining private citizen as someone who's never been in the Israeli armed forces in any way, which obviously excludes a much larger proportion of the population than is typical in most countries.
 
I'll just add to what @rotherham_red & @africanspur have said with my own experiences.

The first time I went, it was via Jordan (crossing Allenby bridge). I was held for 5 hours, with my British passport confiscated. I was then asked by the woman to give up my phone (I refused), and then asked to open my phone and show them my social media. Conveniently my battery was dead and there was no charger to use either. I was then 'interviewed' two separate times largely asking the same questions. Really inane, stupid questions. When they wanted to give my passport back to me, the guard picked it up and threw it despite me being one to two metres away where he could have just placed it in my hand. Bear in mind whilst this is going on, there are literally dozens of guards armed to the teeth, walking up to you staring at you, asking 'what you're doing' when you're literally just sitting in a holding room.

The second time I went, I flew in to Tel Aviv. Again, I was held, this time for approximately two hours, and was required to fill in a form. An hour later, a woman comes and asks me to fill in the same form saying her colleague lost the first one. A while later they call me in for my interview, and we go through the rigmarole of asking really ridiculously stupid questions. "Why do you have cash on you?" (Who travels without cash? We're talking about less than £50 at this point). "Why are you here?" etc.

Then during my whole time there, being stopped and asked questions, endless checkpoints.

The way home was the most shocking though - as we were approaching Tel Aviv airport, I was in a coach full of other travellers (majority were Muslim). The coach is stopped a little outside the airport and 4 heavily armed IDF guys in black get on and walk up and down the coach aisle. Bear in mind there's women, young children, toddlers on this coach, and they're mainly foreigners. This is a scary experience for them. One of the guard then points and me and 3 other men and tells us to get off the coach. We're taken to a room a small walk away and all of our goods (phone, wallet, carry on luggage) is confiscated and we're made to wait in a holding room (re: cell). Approximately 45 mins pass, and then we're marched through electric scanners (the types you get at airports) twice, and then given a once over with the hand held scanner. After that we're allowed our items back - at this point, the locks on our bags have been broken and they've had a good rummage through. For the rest of the group in the coach they asked them to remove the locks at the airport. Some didn't and they forcibly broke into their luggage there anyway. My friend who I was travelling with (he's a tour guide and has been there many more times than me), is taken to a separate room within the airport and is forced to strip to his underwear, and interrogated with 3 heavily armed IDF men. The only reason they eventually let him go is because an orthodox Jew who happened to be in the airport recognised him from a previous trip and said he'd 'have a word'. That's the reality for many of us...and we're British citizens. I can't imagine how much worse it must be if you're a Palestinian.
 
The Corinthian said:
I'll just add to what @rotherham_red & @africanspur have said with my own experiences.

The first time I went, it was via Jordan (crossing Allenby bridge). I was held for 5 hours, with my British passport confiscated. I was then asked by the woman to give up my phone (I refused), and then asked to open my phone and show them my social media. Conveniently my battery was dead and there was no charger to use either. I was then 'interviewed' two separate times largely asking the same questions. Really inane, stupid questions. When they wanted to give my passport back to me, the guard picked it up and threw it despite me being one to two metres away where he could have just placed it in my hand. Bear in mind whilst this is going on, there are literally dozens of guards armed to the teeth, walking up to you staring at you, asking 'what you're doing' when you're literally just sitting in a holding room.

The second time I went, I flew in to Tel Aviv. Again, I was held, this time for approximately two hours, and was required to fill in a form. An hour later, a woman comes and asks me to fill in the same form saying her colleague lost the first one. A while later they call me in for my interview, and we go through the rigmarole of asking really ridiculously stupid questions. "Why do you have cash on you?" (Who travels without cash? We're talking about less than £50 at this point). "Why are you here?" etc.

Then during my whole time there, being stopped and asked questions, endless checkpoints.

The way home was the most shocking though - as we were approaching Tel Aviv airport, I was in a coach full of other travellers (majority were Muslim). The coach is stopped a little outside the airport and 4 heavily armed IDF guys in black get on and walk up and down the coach aisle. Bear in mind there's women, young children, toddlers on this coach, and they're mainly foreigners. This is a scary experience for them. One of the guard then points and me and 3 other men and tells us to get off the coach. We're taken to a room a small walk away and all of our goods (phone, wallet, carry on luggage) is confiscated and we're made to wait in a holding room (re: cell). Approximately 45 mins pass, and then we're marched through electric scanners (the types you get at airports) twice, and then given a once over with the hand held scanner. After that we're allowed our items back - at this point, the locks on our bags have been broken and they've had a good rummage through. For the rest of the group in the coach they asked them to remove the locks at the airport. Some didn't and they forcibly broke into their luggage there anyway. My friend who I was travelling with (he's a tour guide and has been there many more times than me), is taken to a separate room within the airport and is forced to strip to his underwear, and interrogated with 3 heavily armed IDF men. The only reason they eventually let him go is because an orthodox Jew who happened to be in the airport recognised him from a previous trip and said he'd 'have a word'. That's the reality for many of us...and we're British citizens. I can't imagine how much worse it must be if you're a Palestinian.
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I mean, this is just security screening in a country with a heavy terrorism problem. I'm not seeing a huge amount wrong with it.
 
The Corinthian said:
I'll just add to what @rotherham_red & @africanspur have said with my own experiences.

The first time I went, it was via Jordan (crossing Allenby bridge). I was held for 5 hours, with my British passport confiscated. I was then asked by the woman to give up my phone (I refused), and then asked to open my phone and show them my social media. Conveniently my battery was dead and there was no charger to use either. I was then 'interviewed' two separate times largely asking the same questions. Really inane, stupid questions. When they wanted to give my passport back to me, the guard picked it up and threw it despite me being one to two metres away where he could have just placed it in my hand. Bear in mind whilst this is going on, there are literally dozens of guards armed to the teeth, walking up to you staring at you, asking 'what you're doing' when you're literally just sitting in a holding room.

The second time I went, I flew in to Tel Aviv. Again, I was held, this time for approximately two hours, and was required to fill in a form. An hour later, a woman comes and asks me to fill in the same form saying her colleague lost the first one. A while later they call me in for my interview, and we go through the rigmarole of asking really ridiculously stupid questions. "Why do you have cash on you?" (Who travels without cash? We're talking about less than £50 at this point). "Why are you here?" etc.

Then during my whole time there, being stopped and asked questions, endless checkpoints.

The way home was the most shocking though - as we were approaching Tel Aviv airport, I was in a coach full of other travellers (majority were Muslim). The coach is stopped a little outside the airport and 4 heavily armed IDF guys in black get on and walk up and down the coach aisle. Bear in mind there's women, young children, toddlers on this coach, and they're mainly foreigners. This is a scary experience for them. One of the guard then points and me and 3 other men and tells us to get off the coach. We're taken to a room a small walk away and all of our goods (phone, wallet, carry on luggage) is confiscated and we're made to wait in a holding room (re: cell). Approximately 45 mins pass, and then we're marched through electric scanners (the types you get at airports) twice, and then given a once over with the hand held scanner. After that we're allowed our items back - at this point, the locks on our bags have been broken and they've had a good rummage through. For the rest of the group in the coach they asked them to remove the locks at the airport. Some didn't and they forcibly broke into their luggage there anyway. My friend who I was travelling with (he's a tour guide and has been there many more times than me), is taken to a separate room within the airport and is forced to strip to his underwear, and interrogated with 3 heavily armed IDF men. The only reason they eventually let him go is because an orthodox Jew who happened to be in the airport recognised him from a previous trip and said he'd 'have a word'. That's the reality for many of us...and we're British citizens. I can't imagine how much worse it must be if you're a Palestinian.
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It's an apartheid state, well and truly, nothing particularly 'complex' or contentious to it.
 
owlo said:
I mean, this is just security screening in a country with a heavy terrorism problem. I'm not seeing a huge amount wrong with it.
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They literally only do it to anyone with brown skin and an Arabic or non-Western name. It's repugnant.

Edit: I probably should have added that in my initial post as I'm assuming people know that.
 
owlo said:
I mean, this is just security screening in a country with a heavy terrorism problem. I'm not seeing a huge amount wrong with it.
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Nothing wrong with racial and ethnic profiling?
 
owlo said:
I mean, this is just security screening in a country with a heavy terrorism problem. I'm not seeing a huge amount wrong with it.
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I think this is a fairly routine technique in various countries. The bit about going through your phone and having to get out to be interviewed, I've experienced as well when crossing into Canada.
 
Raoul said:
What about all the pics we see of settlers carrying weapons ? Is that also illegal ?
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srael[edit]
Gun laws in Israel are comprehensive despite soldiers being allowed to carry their service weapons on or off duty. Civilians must obtain a firearms license to lawfully acquire, possess, sell or transfer firearms and ammunition. In 2018, Israel significantly loosened firearms restrictions, allowing all citizens who had undergone combat training and qualified in Advanced Infantry Training ('Rifleman "07"') to apply for a private handgun license.[244]

Prior to 2018, only a small group of people had been eligible for firearms licenses: certain retired military personnel, police officers or prison guards; residents of settlements (in the West Bank) or those who often work in such towns; and licensed hunters and animal-control officers. Age requirements vary: 21 for those who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 27 otherwise, and 45 for non-citizens. Firearm license applicants must have been a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years, pass a background check (criminal, health, and mental history), establish a genuine reason for possessing a firearm (such as self-defense, hunting, or sport), and pass a weapons-training course.[245] Around 40% of applications for firearms permits were rejected.[246]

Those holding firearms licenses must renew them and pass a shooting course every three years. Security guards must pass these tests to renew their license to carry firearms belonging to their employers.[247] Applicants must demonstrate that they have a safe at their residence in which to keep the firearm. Permits are given only for personal use, and holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun and purchase an annual supply of 50 cartridges (although more may be purchased to replace rounds used at a firing range).[248]

In addition to private licenses of firearms, organizations can issue carry-licenses to their members or employees for activity related to that organization (e.g. security companies, shooting clubs, other workplaces). Members of officially recognized shooting clubs (e.g.: practical shooting, Olympic shooting) are eligible for personal licenses allowing them to possess additional firearms (small bore rifles, pistol caliber carbines, handguns, air rifles and air pistols) and ammunition after demonstrating a need and fulfilling minimum membership time and activity requirements. Unlicensed individuals who want to engage in practice shooting are allowed supervised use of shotguns and small bore rifles at firing ranges.

Most individuals who are licensed to possess handguns may carry them loaded in public, concealed or openly.[245]

In 2005, there were 237,000 private citizens and 154,000 security guards licensed to carry firearms. Another 34,000 Israelis own guns illegally due to their failure to renew their firearms license.[249][250] In 2007, there were estimated to be 500,000 licensed small arms held by civilians, in addition to 1,757,500 by the military, and 26,040 by the police.[251][252]
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considering their is compulrsry military service and the current security situation combined with the law chane in 2018 I think its likley there has been a big increase since those 2007 figures from wiki (though I dont have the stats im sure they are available) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

Equally it is illegal for a private citizen to have a fully automatic rifle... though clearly not ollegal to possess a firearm... so as to the apparent AK47 i would guess its unlikley to be a legal gun unless modified to only allow semi auto and was issued by an organisation allowed to do so (again I suspect settler organisations have secutity licences that can facilitate this).... or possibly the person who saw that mistook an Army issue automatic rifle for an AK47 as active service members can openly carry their service weapons whilst off duty

As for illegal gun ownership that is obviousley much more difficult to quantify but given the collapse of the regime in Iraq, the issues in Syria, lybia and the historic issues in the region I suspect its easier to find an ex military weapon in Jeruselam if you really want to than say Birmingham
 
Raoul said:
I think this is a fairly routine technique in various countries. The bit about going through your phone and having to get out to be interviewed, I've experienced as well when crossing into Canada.
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I've travelled a fair bit in my time - I've never had my luggage rummaged through without my consent, or interviewed for as long or as frequent as I have when travelling there. I've never had my possessions confiscated either.
 
The Corinthian said:
They literally only do it to anyone with brown skin and an Arabic or non-Western name. It's repugnant.

Edit: I probably should have added that in my initial post as I'm assuming people know that.
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This just is a blatant lie. I'm an Orthodox Jew from South Africa and have been subject to the same strict questioning, bag opening and bus checks that you described on multiple occasions.
 
The Corinthian said:
I'll just add to what @rotherham_red & @africanspur have said with my own experiences.

The first time I went, it was via Jordan (crossing Allenby bridge). I was held for 5 hours, with my British passport confiscated. I was then asked by the woman to give up my phone (I refused), and then asked to open my phone and show them my social media. Conveniently my battery was dead and there was no charger to use either. I was then 'interviewed' two separate times largely asking the same questions. Really inane, stupid questions. When they wanted to give my passport back to me, the guard picked it up and threw it despite me being one to two metres away where he could have just placed it in my hand. Bear in mind whilst this is going on, there are literally dozens of guards armed to the teeth, walking up to you staring at you, asking 'what you're doing' when you're literally just sitting in a holding room.

The second time I went, I flew in to Tel Aviv. Again, I was held, this time for approximately two hours, and was required to fill in a form. An hour later, a woman comes and asks me to fill in the same form saying her colleague lost the first one. A while later they call me in for my interview, and we go through the rigmarole of asking really ridiculously stupid questions. "Why do you have cash on you?" (Who travels without cash? We're talking about less than £50 at this point). "Why are you here?" etc.

Then during my whole time there, being stopped and asked questions, endless checkpoints.

The way home was the most shocking though - as we were approaching Tel Aviv airport, I was in a coach full of other travellers (majority were Muslim). The coach is stopped a little outside the airport and 4 heavily armed IDF guys in black get on and walk up and down the coach aisle. Bear in mind there's women, young children, toddlers on this coach, and they're mainly foreigners. This is a scary experience for them. One of the guard then points and me and 3 other men and tells us to get off the coach. We're taken to a room a small walk away and all of our goods (phone, wallet, carry on luggage) is confiscated and we're made to wait in a holding room (re: cell). Approximately 45 mins pass, and then we're marched through electric scanners (the types you get at airports) twice, and then given a once over with the hand held scanner. After that we're allowed our items back - at this point, the locks on our bags have been broken and they've had a good rummage through. For the rest of the group in the coach they asked them to remove the locks at the airport. Some didn't and they forcibly broke into their luggage there anyway. My friend who I was travelling with (he's a tour guide and has been there many more times than me), is taken to a separate room within the airport and is forced to strip to his underwear, and interrogated with 3 heavily armed IDF men. The only reason they eventually let him go is because an orthodox Jew who happened to be in the airport recognised him from a previous trip and said he'd 'have a word'. That's the reality for many of us...and we're British citizens. I can't imagine how much worse it must be if you're a Palestinian.
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Exactly this. I actually saw it with my own eyes at Allenby Bridge when I went. Throngs and throngs of entitled teenagers, likely on a little excursion during their birthright trip, swanning around going in and out as they pleased while elderly and frail Palestinian women being made to wait for hours in cramped conditions. Or, when the bridge is opened, being forced to enter via cages like they were an exhibit at the zoo.
 
The Corinthian said:
They literally only do it to anyone with brown skin and an Arabic or non-Western name. It's repugnant.

Edit: I probably should have added that in my initial post as I'm assuming people know that.
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It's not just based on name and skin. Happens to Jews etc too. but I've had a similar experience entering Somaliland and Australia and am white. (Sailed through US security about 2 weeks after 9/11 though with nothing more than a "can I get you a coffee lad, you look nervous?" from the army captain there.) The Australian experience was especially harrowing.
 
owlo said:
I can't disagree. Some of them are plain racists, only crying now that it's out of control for their own people. They are directly responsible, to me at least.

As to the bolded, the military are likely experienced and professional enough to not discriminate and follow orders. Military punishments for misbehaviour are generally pretty stiff. But then, the police should be too, so I get your point. I've known a good few too, and I can't think of any who would allow a lynching. But then perhaps I don't know them well enough. If anybody I knew participated in it, I'd report them and never speak again.

by the way: asylum/immigration to Israel (at least pre Netanyhu) has always been pretty loose. For example, they generally take more African non Jewish asylum seekers every year than the USA take total. I think that as long as you're *not* arab, you have a pretty easy time getting in. Don't quote me on it though. Could have changed in recent years at least.
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I would be incredibly surprised if that last statistic is true, Israel houses about 56,000 adult refugees or asylum seekers. Of course I wouldn't expect a country as small as Israel to have similar numbers to the USA anyway.

Regardless, I think you know that general immigration isn't my point. He was talking about how Moshe, from London, having never stepped foot in that region, has the right to take a plane tomorrow to Tel Aviv and set up a new life in Israel (or the West Bank if they so wish), with government support, while Hassan or Morcos in Bethlehem do not. Of course, you and others may think that's fair but that's another conversation.

Who would you report them to? One of these people was a pretty normal person and came back from his year in the IDF saying that Arabs were subhuman for what they do. He's not really breaking any laws for thinking that in the UK is he?
 
Raoul said:
I think this is a fairly routine technique in various countries. The bit about going through your phone and having to get out to be interviewed, I've experienced as well when crossing into Canada.
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Yea, El Al basically setup a huge intelligence led profiling and security setup after the terrorism attacks on them. Many other countries have followed their cue these days.
 
Traub said:
This just is a blatant lie. I'm an Orthodox Jew from South Africa and have been subject to the same strict questioning, bag opening and bus checks that you described on multiple occasions.
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What's your skin tone? Sorry if that's personal, but I was travelling with other white Brits and they were waved through without any of this.

Like I said, I think it's about colour of skin and name mainly.
 
The Corinthian said:
I've travelled a fair bit in my time - I've never had my luggage rummaged through without my consent, or interviewed for as long or as frequent as I have when travelling there. I've never had my possessions confiscated either.
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The luggage and confiscations bit does seem out of order
 
The Corinthian said:
They literally only do it to anyone with brown skin and an Arabic or non-Western name. It's repugnant
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That’s not quite true, although they certainly profile anyone with a Muslim or Arab name and/or ‘look’. I’ve flown in and out of Ben Gurion probably around twelve times, and crossed all of Israel’s international borders (three with Jordan and one with Egypt) multiple times. White Irish guy with an Israeli university card, BUT with multiple passport stamps from states regarded as, let’s say, problematic (esp. Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Pakistan). Also sometimes I was with my wife who has an Arab name, but that never seemed to make much difference. I’ve received the full treatment you’ve described (including strip search to underwear) multiple times. One time my ‘minder’ even recognized me from a previous time and apologized before going through the same process again. In Ben Gurion it’s always worse leaving than entering in my experience, but this maybe depends on certain things.
 
Carolina Red said:
Interesting in how they put the military training caveat in that gun law, considering Arab-Israelis are exempt from conscription.
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What military training caveat?

africanspur said:
I would be incredibly surprised if that last statistic is true, Israel houses about 56,000 adult refugees or asylum seekers. Of course I wouldn't expect a country as small as Israel to have similar numbers to the USA anyway.

Regardless, I think you know that general immigration isn't my point. He was talking about how Moshe, from London, having never stepped foot in that region, has the right to take a plane tomorrow to Tel Aviv and set up a new life in Israel (or the West Bank if they so wish), with government support, while Hassan or Morcos in Bethlehem do not. Of course, you and others may think that's fair but that's another conversation.

Who would you report them to? One of these people was a pretty normal person and came back from his year in the IDF saying that Arabs were subhuman for what they do. He's not really breaking any laws for thinking that in the UK is he?
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You're right, I was looking at the wrong trends. The whole 'right of return' thing is a whole other argument to be honest, and not for this thread. I tend to disagree with it in principle, though with the recent resurgence of anti semitic hate, my opinion could easily change. (though I'd like Israel to remain a fairly open country to any refugee facing persecution. The right are dead against this)

He can think what he wants. If he's lynching people though, he is. Depends on the place and what they did, but if it's Jerusalem/Tel Aviv/Rehovot, I might know a few people.
 
To those saying that Israel wants peace but they can't due to Hamas I want to explain why I'm sceptical of that.

Israel was acting like this before Hamas rose, assisted by Israel by the way*. Even the milquetoast 1993 accords resulted in Rabin being assassinated after a 'lapse' by Israeli domestic intelligence. The accords were subsequently ignored and settlement creation accelerated. the pull out from Gaza was a pullout in name only as Israel maintained control of the overwhelming majority of access points to the strip and still regularly sent troops in for sweeps where Palestinians were treated poorly further cementing the rise of Hamas.

The current situation benefits the controlling powers in Israel, they can point at Hamas to excuse their own atrocities while continuing to take land for their own people and further brutalise and concentrate the Palestinians into smaller and more destitute pockets, the perfect breeding ground for extremism. It's like Israeli forces read the book on how to stop terrorism and decided to do the opposite, to continue to create angry and disaffected young men for terrorists to draw from. Hamas benefits from this situation too, they have an ever growing pool to draw from and can skim reconstruction funds for their own ends.

*edit: this is not to claim that there was no anti-semetic/Israeli terrorism before Hamas, that would be extremely stupid.
 
MacabbiUnited said:
Private citizens are not allowed to own weapons in Israel, and AK-47 is not even in our army's arsenal, let alone a citizen. I dont know where you have been to, I dont know what you think you saw.
I live here, I grew up here, I worked with arabs my entire life, i go out on Fridays with arab friends. Is everything perfect? No. Are there crazy extremists? Yes, on both sides. But the picture you are trying to paint here is so distorted and not connected to reality that its actually frightnening.
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East Jerusalem. I can even tell you the exact street and landmark if you so wish. Are you implying that I am lying? Because I can assure you, it most definitely did happen.

You live there as a person of privilege. You will never know the daily realities of life as a Palestinian because that reality is so far removed from your own experience that it simply won't compute. No matter how many projectiles are sent your way, it pales in significance to what Palestinians go through, irrespective of whether they live in Gaza, the West Bank or Israel itself. Even I, as someone who has deep sympathies with the Palestinian community, will never know the true depths of the experience, but that short period I was there will stay with me forever.
 
The Corinthian said:
What's your skin tone? Sorry if that's personal, but I was travelling with other white Brits and they were waved through without any of this.

Like I said, I think it's about colour of skin and name mainly.
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White male.

Edit: Security in Israel is insanely strict to be honest. It's just the nature of going there, especially if you're coming from parts of the world with not the best security in Israel's opinion.
 


Unlike Maccabi, who can go to his shelter when the rockets are launched (the vast majority of which are intercepted by the Iron Dome system), where are the civilians of Gaza meant to go when the B-52s start raining down? It is one of the most densely populated places in the world, where the movement is severely restricted. They can't get out even if they wanted to.
 
owlo said:
What military training caveat?
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From @sun_tzu ’s post...
“In 2018, Israel significantly loosened firearms restrictions, allowing all citizens who had undergone combat training and qualified in Advanced Infantry Training ('Rifleman "07"') to apply for a private handgun license.”
 
rotherham_red said:
East Jerusalem. I can even tell you the exact street and landmark if you so wish. Are you implying that I am lying? Because I can assure you, it most definitely did happen.
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My Guess if you saw somebody with an AK47 then its probably an Galil (based on an AK47)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil

Army issue...

Soldiers are allowed to carry automatic weapons off duty

So given automatic rifles are illegal for private citizens by guess would be it was an off duty armed forces legally carrying out of uniform as that makes more sense than a private citizen

Im guessing you didnt ask them to check... I know i wouldnt have done
 
2cents said:
Your post actually nicely illustrates one problem with the maps as they are presented. The line of approach and claims on a very specific and important aspect of the history of the topic - control of land - are set/determined by the maps themselves and the way they are presented, not by my response. Yet it is impossible to critique them without getting dragged into the mud and apparently appearing to endorse an alternative narrative which I also actually reject. That is often the case in challenging propaganda and clarifying history unfortunately. But for the reasons given above to @neverdie I believe it’s something worth doing.
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I think we're going to fundamentally disagree here.

You're right that the term 'Palestinian land' is not necessarily the correct one but as the other poster said, I think that sometimes an over-focus on details can detract from the overall picture. I guess what the picture (for me anyway) tries to fundamentally portray is the reduced proportion of land and population of the Palestinians (or Arabs if people prefer), who comprised an overwhelming majority of the population up to the early 1900s and who ended up a smaller and smaller proportion through mass migration over which they had no control and eventually war and conquest as well. The reality is of course as well that international diplomacy and the battle for hearts and minds and general opinion does not take place with cold, hard historiography. I think the Palestinians' only hope at this point is international pressure. And where that matters at the moment, they are very much 'losing'.

Again I'm sure you'll disagree but I do not see any fundamental difference in the settlement process now and the settlement process in the 1900s. In both cases, a mixture of legal avenues and force, onto a population that is not keen for this mass migration.

The thing for me is that I can acutely feel the Palestinian sense of injustice at this migration, both previously and now. However, fundamentally, it has happened now and the Jews are not going anywhere. So now we need to find a solution that allows all the groups there; Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze etc etc to live there in peace, security and prosperity.

What that solution is I don't know anymore. The idealist in me says one state solution but despite my general disdain for most of the Israeli positions, I completely acknowledge that I would not feel comfortable at the moment with such a state as an Israeli Jew or with the demographics. How Palestinians manage to convince the Israeli Jews that they wouldn't be a threat long term, I don't know.
 
rotherham_red said:
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Serious question here...

Taking the very real possibility of misinformation & outright lying out of the equation, if an enemy has some element of its military infrastructure located within a building like this, how else would / should an opposing force deal with it?

It seems like it would be extremely difficult to mount a ‘boots on the ground’ operation every time a potential target in a civilian high rise structure is located from manpower & logistics standpoints. Emplacing military targets within civilian populations has been a tactic for millennia around the world, it’s not new in the continuing ME struggle. How else does an opposing force deal with such a dilemma short of simply not sending ordnance into a civilian population?

e - I have to say, this isn’t that, though. It’s not a carpet bombing campaign. This is a targeted operation against one structure. This isn’t Linebacker II. This is as targeted a strike as possible.
 
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owlo said:
I've posted the exact regulations above.

edit: https://www.gov.il/en/departments/general/firearm-licensing-information
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as I say probably an off duty soldier with a Galil (looks like an ak at a glance... is issued to army (and police) rather than a private citizen with an actual AK
Gun laws in Israel are comprehensive despite soldiers being allowed to carry their service weapons on or off duty.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation
 
sun_tzu said:
My Guess if you saw somebody with an AK47 then its probably an Galil (based on an AK47)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil

Army issue...

Soldiers are allowed to carry automatic weapons off duty

So given automatic rifles are illegal for private citizens by guess would be it was an off duty armed forces legally carrying out of uniform as that makes more sense than a private citizen

Im guessing you didnt ask them to check... I know i wouldnt have done
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To my knowledge, they are not. It could have changed. Where did you read this? It's just 'normally' the license is for a pistol.
 
I don't see how some people in this thread can justify the tweets posted by @rotherham_red just now. The people of Palestine are being treated in the most inhumane way possible, it's 2021 - I can't believe this is still happening around the world.

So, so sad that the world powers US, UK and Germany are doing nothing to stop this genocide, or whatever you want to call it, taking place.
 
owlo said:
I've posted the exact regulations above.

edit: https://www.gov.il/en/departments/general/firearm-licensing-information
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Your link has what I'm talking about in it...

  1. Current or past service in the security forces:
    • Officers in the IDF with the rank of first lieutenant or above, non-commissioned officers with the rank of first sergeant or above and equivalent ranks in additional security forces.
    • Service in a special unit of the security forces
    • IDF and Israel Police – rifleman 07 or rifleman 08 certification.
 
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