Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

You're right, I was looking at the wrong trends. The whole 'right of return' thing is a whole other argument to be honest, and not for this thread. I tend to disagree with it in principle, though with the recent resurgence of anti semitic hate, my opinion could easily change. (though I'd like Israel to remain a fairly open country to any refugee facing persecution. The right are dead against this)

He can think what he wants. If he's lynching people though, he is. Depends on the place and what they did, but if it's Jerusalem/Tel Aviv/Rehovot, I might know a few people.

I have no idea what he got up to in the IDF to be honest and found the entire situation/ conversation pretty vile so didn't enquire further.

He's certainly not lynching anyone here though and I assume is still working as a high powered professional in London so not much to do for hateful thoughts.

Let's be fair, hateful thought permeates both sides of this conflict (well it permeates through a lot of humans in general all around the world).
 
So was @MacabbiUnited lying or not?

He's completely brainwashed.

- if someone blows up a tower block "Well there was intelligence of Hamas weapons inside"
- If a kid dies "Well that death is on Hamas"
- If people are moved out of their home "It's their right to NOT live there"

The worst bit is, I think he's being completely genuine in his comments. That's just how he was raised and he can't see how alien his perspective is to the rest of us. Kind of like the US gun debate... :D
 
Your link has what I'm talking about in it...

  1. Current or past service in the security forces:
    • Officers in the IDF with the rank of first lieutenant or above, non-commissioned officers with the rank of first sergeant or above and equivalent ranks in additional security forces.
    • Service in a special unit of the security forces
    • IDF and Israel Police – rifleman 07 or rifleman 08 certification.

Those aren't prerequisites/caveats, those are one of the valid reasons to apply. The prerequisites are in the section above that titled 'preconditions'.
 
He's completely brainwashed.

- if someone blows up a tower block "Well there was intelligence of Hamas weapons inside"
- If a kid dies "Well that death is on Hamas"
- If people are moved out of their home "It's their right to NOT live there"

The worst bit is, I think he's being completely genuine in his comments. That's just how he was raised and he can't see how alien his perspective is to the rest of us. Kind of like the US gun debate... :D

I disagree with almost everything they've written on here (that I've seen), suspect we'd fundamentally disagree about most aspects of this conflict and some of the stuff they've posted about most moral army in the world etc is just....well exactly what I've heard and seen before from IDF/previous IDF members.

But I think that's a little unfair. I don't think they've said at any point about people being moved out of their home that they have a right to not live there or anything like that, unless I've missed it.
 


Unlike Maccabi, who can go to his shelter when the rockets are launched (the vast majority of which are intercepted by the Iron Dome system), where are the civilians of Gaza meant to go when the B-52s start raining down? It is one of the most densely populated places in the world, where the movement is severely restricted. They can't get out even if they wanted to.


Its ok though because Israel sends some leaflets telling them we are going to bomb the shit out of your area please take care when youre out and about (watch out for falling bombs/missles- maybe grab an umbrella?)
 
If diplomacy is out of the question, you really can't.
No aspect of war is pretty, none. But there’s different levels of intensity even through a structure is being felled.

But, as I said in my edit to that post, that’s not a B-52 raid, that’s not a widespread bombing operation. Nor is it particularly large ordnance.

It’s a reality of conflict in that area, just like rocket attacks by one side are a reality. There’s equal measure for indignation against both, just like there’s reasons for both.
 
And I'm just about positive that this part of the law covers the folks living in the illegal settlements...

  1. Residency in an eligible location, as designated by the Israel Police

"Citizens wishing to be armed must be over 21 and have a valid reason for needing a gun, such as living in Judea and Samaria or working in a hazardous environment."
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/248598
 
The two sides share the same foundation in religion but have long branched off in separate directions.

Despite their slavery thousands of years ago the Jews and Muslims were happy to live cheek by jowl for centuries following and some do even now but this isn't really about religion but instead one side being promised a homeland following the Holocaust, duplicity from the British and not enough resources to go around. Surrounded on all sides by politicians and bigots swearing to eradicate them the Jewish people decided that non-aggression hadn't worked too well for them in the recent past and that they would not go gently into that good night.

Moving on a few decades those surrounding states mostly brought to heel by global politics and the United States and the Jewish Politicians continue to make whole generations of Palestinians live out their lives in refugee camps and an increasing jewish population desires more and more land, enabled by their politicians. Personally I think the whole thing is possibly even more complicated than an answer to the Northern Irish and Irish issue and I've no clue about that either. I'm just a simple minded man as you can see.

But in the end it goes both ways: in one hand you have the continous advance of new settlements by israelis. Bare in mind that those settlements are made not by the ordinary civilians, but by people supported by far right organizations (far right exists in Israel, like everywhere in the world, just in the different shape). Remeber that these kind of organizations have funding from powerful people that can even leverage local authorities on their side.

On the other hand Hamas tends to fight back and lot of times are the inoccent civilians who are more at unrest than the actual "bad guys". And even though it is terrible that Palestine refugee count keeps increasins, on the other hand the funding used to arm and train soldiers could be used to create new homes, but unfortunatelly the seeds of hate are are being croped by both sides.

The thing is far more complicated mainly because Israel is a very young country and the way it was founded didn't help. You can find similar things in modern Europe also (Kosovo comes to mind). The original idea was poetic and noble, give home to an expatriate people, but what looked like it would be a country that would promote values about freedom and retaliating opression, things got a bit off rail.
 
Those aren't prerequisites/caveats, those are one of the valid reasons to apply. The prerequisites are in the section above that titled 'preconditions'.
Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that the argument was over the use of the word caveat. But while we're at it
"Caveat: a modifying or cautionary detail to be considered when evaluating, interpreting, or doing something". I'm saying it is one of the things evaluated when someone applies for a gun permit in Israel.

To the root of the issue... in the same way that an Arab refugee driven off their land by Israel cannot return to their legally claimed land, what are the odds that an Arab can get one of these gun permits?
 
Its ok though because Israel sends some leaflets telling them we are going to bomb the shit out of your area please take care when youre out and about (watch out for falling bombs/missles- maybe grab an umbrella?)

The justifications for apartheid I've seen over the last few days have shocked me
 
Serious question here...

Taking the very real possibility of misinformation & outright lying out of the equation, if an enemy has some element of its military infrastructure located within a building like this, how else would / should an opposing force deal with it?

It seems like it would be extremely difficult to mount a ‘boots on the ground’ operation every time a potential target in a civilian high rise structure is located from manpower & logistics standpoints. Emplacing military targets within civilian populations has been a tactic for millennia around the world, it’s not new in the continuing ME struggle. How else does an opposing force deal with such a dilemma short of simply not sending ordnance into a civilian population?

e - I have to say, this isn’t that, though. It’s not a carpet bombing campaign. This is a targeted operation against one structure. This isn’t Linebacker II. This is as targeted a strike as possible.

Trouble is, when there is such a lopsided imbalance of power between both sides, only one side will come out on top when there's a military conflict. The Israelis can continue doing this for a protracted period of time as long as public support within Israel support it and the US pressure remains tepid. This will result in considerably more damage to infrastructure in Gaza.
 
It's an apartheid state, well and truly, nothing particularly 'complex' or contentious to it.

Exactly. If anything Israelis are taught a dumbed down version of events growing up and as the true complexities (aka atrocities and ethnic cleansing) come to fruition they get on the defensive' as if standing up against a war crimes is a personal insult. Thankfully the tide is changing
 
Its ok though because Israel sends some leaflets telling them we are going to bomb the shit out of your area please take care when youre out and about (watch out for falling bombs/missles- maybe grab an umbrella?)
If the camera was pointed 10 degrees either way from that building, the ‘bomb the shit out of the area’ part wouldn’t be applicable.
 
Trouble is, when there is such a lopsided imbalance of power between both sides, only one side will come out on top when there's a military conflict. The Israelis can continue doing this for a protracted period of time as long as public support within Israel support it and the US pressure remains tepid.

The balance of power would be seen as too over the top even in film in my opinion
 
I think we're going to fundamentally disagree here.

You're right that the term 'Palestinian land' is not necessarily the correct one but as the other poster said, I think that sometimes an over-focus on details can detract from the overall picture. I guess what the picture (for me anyway) tries to fundamentally portray is the reduced proportion of land and population of the Palestinians (or Arabs if people prefer), who comprised an overwhelming majority of the population up to the early 1900s and who ended up a smaller and smaller proportion through mass migration over which they had no control and eventually war and conquest as well. The reality is of course as well that international diplomacy and the battle for hearts and minds and general opinion does not take place with cold, hard historiography. I think the Palestinians' only hope at this point is international pressure. And where that matters at the moment, they are very much 'losing'.

I think I’ve pretty much responded to this already in my response to @neverdie, so yes let’s agree to disagree.

africanspur said:
Again I'm sure you'll disagree but I do not see any fundamental difference in the settlement process now and the settlement process in the 1900s. In both cases, a mixture of legal avenues and force, onto a population that is not keen for this mass migration.

I’m not sure why you’d assume I would disagree with you here. From the Palestinian perspective of course there is no significant difference. For them Zionism = settler-colonialism, subjugation, dispossession, running now for almost 150 years. I would never dare to try to convince them they’re wrong on this, that their experiences are invalid because they got some facts wrong in the telling of it. That’s not at all what I was trying to do in my post.

However, if things are to come to a civilized conclusion in this, Palestinians will, I believe, have to acknowledge that for their opponents, Zionism = national liberation/self-determination, control of destiny. For many if not most the creation of Israel stands as the greatest moment in Jewish history for over two thousand years. Acknowledging this does not mean Palestinians accepting Zionism’s legitimacy, or equivalence of guilt or victimhood in the conflict, it simply means accepting that in order to live together genuine empathy is required (and obviously the reverse is true). I don’t think the process of encouraging this shared sense of history is served by cheap manipulation.

africanspur said:
The thing for me is that I can acutely feel the Palestinian sense of injustice at this migration, both previously and now. However, fundamentally, it has happened now and the Jews are not going anywhere. So now we need to find a solution that allows all the groups there; Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze etc etc to live there in peace, security and prosperity.

What that solution is I don't know anymore. The idealist in me says one state solution but despite my general disdain for most of the Israeli positions, I completely acknowledge that I would not feel comfortable at the moment with such a state as an Israeli Jew or with the demographics. How Palestinians manage to convince the Israeli Jews that they wouldn't be a threat long term, I don't know.

There is a one-state reality on the ground right now, whatever other complications exist. There is no path open to the creation of a Palestinian state. Accepting that reality can seem depressing, or else we can look for opportunities in the disintegration of the so-called “status quo.” I’ve suggested on here that a mass Palestinian campaign for citizenship might help shift the terms of the debate. Not too dissimilar to BDS, but a simpler, clearer message without the baggage that BDS carries. I don’t see how any reasonable person could oppose such a movement. There are obvious massive obstacles, and no clear outcome. But at the very least it would sharpen the focus on the current unequal one-state reality and get people thinking outside the box.
 
Trouble is, when there is such a lopsided imbalance of power between both sides, only one side will come out on top when there's a military conflict. The Israelis can continue doing this for a protracted period of time as long as public support within Israel support it and the US pressure remains tepid. This will result in considerably more damage to infrastructure in Gaza.
Totally agree on the macro, but a strike such as this displays a show of restraint by the side that wields the power. The damage inflicted is about as limited as it can get. There’s always going to be the question of if the building was a ‘legitimate’ target, but felling one building in a strike isn’t inflicting as much widespread damage as could easily be done.

I can understand this style of surgical warfare as a tactic just like I can understand the use of the rockets as a tactic.
 
My Guess if you saw somebody with an AK47 then its probably an Galil (based on an AK47)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil

Army issue...

Soldiers are allowed to carry automatic weapons off duty

So given automatic rifles are illegal for private citizens by guess would be it was an off duty armed forces legally carrying out of uniform as that makes more sense than a private citizen

Im guessing you didnt ask them to check... I know i wouldnt have done
That's the one I saw. Even if it was an off duty soldier, where was the reason? The Palestinians in Jerusalem, as you can see from recent events, are almost totally subjugated, and it was a tourist area right by the Old City. There is and was no need.
 
The justifications for apartheid I've seen over the last few days have shocked me

Ive seen a lot more calling out Israel for its latest abuse of power. The forced evictions were bad enough, but when they attacked the worshippers in the AlAqsa Mosque, people really awakened to the horrible situation.
 
Zionism is literally a settler colonial project (I'm pretty sure Herzl said this himself). Terms like liberation and identity are total rubbish and justification for imperialism. Jabotinsky stated - “Zionist colonisation (his words) can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population - behind an iron wall which the native population cannot breach”
 
I’m not sure why you’d assume I would disagree with you here. From the Palestinian perspective of course there is no significant difference. For them Zionism = settler-colonialism, subjugation, dispossession, running now for almost 150 years. I would never dare to try to convince them they’re wrong on this, that their experiences are invalid because they got some facts wrong in the telling of it. That’s not at all what I was trying to do in my post.

However, if things are to come to a civilized conclusion in this, Palestinians will, I believe, have to acknowledge that for their opponents, Zionism = national liberation/self-determination, control of destiny. For many if not most the creation of Israel stands as the greatest moment in Jewish history for over two thousand years. Acknowledging this does not mean Palestinians accepting Zionism’s legitimacy, or equivalence of guilt or victimhood in the conflict, it simply means accepting that in order to live together genuine empathy is required (and obviously the reverse is true). I don’t think the process of encouraging this shared sense of history is served by cheap manipulation.

There is a one-state reality on the ground right now, whatever other complications exist. There is no path open to the creation of a Palestinian state. Accepting that reality can seem depressing, or else we can look for opportunities in the disintegration of the so-called “status quo.” I’ve suggested on here that a mass Palestinian campaign for citizenship might help shift the terms of the debate. Not too dissimilar to BDS, but a simpler, clearer message without the baggage that BDS carries. I don’t see how any reasonable person could oppose such a movement. There are obvious massive obstacles, and no clear outcome. But at the very least it would sharpen the focus on the current unequal one-state reality and get people thinking outside the box.

I assumed you might disagree because I thought you yourself made a distinction in your post about not denying post 1967 settler activity, though I probably read too much into that. Please note that I was not suggesting that you personally were dismissing the Palestinian experience, either in the initial post or subsequent ones.

Even though you are perhaps more sympathetic to the Israeli position than most on here (which I'm pretty sure you yourself have said before), you are more objective than most on either side and of course more well informed than almost everyone else on here.

I agree with you that a shared empathy is totally necessary, though I think you will find it difficult for Palestinians to do. While for zionists, it is the greatest Jewish achievements in millennia, for Palestinians, it is literally their catastrophe, one which they are still living. Perhaps would be easier to start on things like the Sephardim experience in the second half of the 20th century and then they can work from there.

I also agree that a one-state reality exists on the ground, though one which exists with the dreaded A word. I admire your thinking outside of the box but even the liberal Jews I know in the UK, who are far removed from the situation, would almost universally not accept a one state solution at present, both for the potential demographic danger and the worries they have for what a truly binational state may look like. And again, as I said previously, I actually don't blame them for thinking that way at all.

I think its a nice idea but I'd be interested to know how it differs in your eyes from current calls from some for a one-state solution and what framing would allow it to be better received?

Frankly, I'm stumped in general.
 
Ive seen a lot more calling out Israel for its latest abuse of power. The forced evictions were bad enough, but when they attacked the worshippers in the AlAqsa Mosque, people really awakened to the horrible situation.

Yes true, online it has been good to see. But I'm just so frustrated that even on this thread some people are framing it as anyone other than the horror of what is. Even at its most basic, Gaza is an open air prison from which no one can leave, yet it is being bombed in front of the worlds eyes - and some are still defending it.. (it's heart breaking). Anyway I'll take a break now as it is all too much for me too and energy seems better spent sharing on social media
 
7,000 Israeli soldiers called up. Sounds like a ground invasion of Gaza may happen.
There is a couple of million people in gaza... plus the terrain in the cities is awful for troop movements... they would want a lot more than 7000 extra troops

Can't see them going in on a large scale when they can just lob bombs in there
 
Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that the argument was over the use of the word caveat. But while we're at it
"Caveat: a modifying or cautionary detail to be considered when evaluating, interpreting, or doing something". I'm saying it is one of the things evaluated when someone applies for a gun permit in Israel.

To the root of the issue... in the same way that an Arab refugee driven off their land by Israel cannot return to their legally claimed land, what are the odds that an Arab can get one of these gun permits?

It's not a detail to be considered though. It's not a point system. Any one of those reasons is valid for application.

Arab Israelis can and do have firearms licenses in Israel. It's actually encouraged Illegal weapon rates are so high.

And I'm just about positive that this part of the law covers the folks living in the illegal settlements...

  1. Residency in an eligible location, as designated by the Israel Police

"Citizens wishing to be armed must be over 21 and have a valid reason for needing a gun, such as living in Judea and Samaria or working in a hazardous environment."
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/248598

You're correct. Living in a settlement (or at least many of them) is a valid reason for a firearms license if pre-requisites are met.
 


Oman and UAE have also condemned it but it doesn’t mean much from these guys.
 
7,000 Israeli soldiers called up. Sounds like a ground invasion of Gaza may happen.


Seen on BBC news that they were setting up tanks and mortar launchers for a ground offensive, looks like they are turning to this instead of air strikes.
 
There is a couple of million people in gaza... plus the terrain in the cities is awful for troop movements... they would want a lot more than 7000 extra troops

Can't see them going in on a large scale when they can just lob bombs in there

I'm sure they already have tens of thousands on duty, so the extras would probably be to support ground operations.
 
Absolutely. And yes, the average Palestinian suffers. But the anti-Israel, anti-zionist movements should really channel their efforts on fighting and freeing the Palestinian civilians from Hamas, a radical terrorist organization who holds millions of civilians captive and brainwashes them to hate Israel more than to love their own children. Israel, on the other hand, will not lay down and submit to those that believe that their struggle will not be over as long as there are living Jews in Israel. Israel, like every other sovereign nation, has every right to defend itself from any aggressors that call for its destruction. The more damage they can inflict on Hamas, the better. And unlike Hamas, Israel notifies residents to evacuate before bombing and they do their best to strike only militants and terrorists. From the other side, missiles are purposefully aimed at civilian targets.

But none of that answers the question as how should random palestinians react when they suffer injustices. You're talking about the abstract, but that doesn't help the guy who as kicked out of his home or the parent who lost a child.

If something terrible happens to an israeli kid or adult, the army responds attacking the site where the rocket was launched for example, and that gives israelis the sense that at least something is done to placate their pain. Palestinians have none of that, everyone just expects them to take it and move on. Human beings don't work like that.

And Hamas is a a terrorist organization, nobody expects them to be civilized in their attacks. It's not an excuse, it's cnuts behaving like cnuts and it's horrible, attacking randomly is a criminal act. The problem is that israelis have been behaving pretty much the same way, because apparently no matter how many notices they send and how sophisticated their weapons are, they keep killing civilians on a daily basis. So what does the intent matter for those who are killed or lose their children? At a certain point you're just killing people and your justifications (good or bad) stop having an effect.
 
even the liberal Jews I know in the UK, who are far removed from the situation, would almost universally not accept a one state solution at present, both for the potential demographic danger and the worries they have for what a truly binational state may look like. And again, as I said previously, I actually don't blame them for thinking that way at all.

The point wouldn’t really be to gain their outright support for the movement’s stated goal (citizenship), but to make liberal Zionists uncomfortable enough with the current one-state reality to really start taking the need for change seriously.

I think its a nice idea but I'd be interested to know how it differs in your eyes from current calls from some for a one-state solution and what framing would allow it to be better received?

Well BDS doesn’t actually explicitly call for one state, which is a problem I think. It has three clear limited aims which it frames as human rights issues, but deliberately remains ambiguous on outcome (for tactical reasons IMO). This has allowed its opponents to mystify it and frame it as a tool for Palestinian victory rather than peaceful settlement. And I think the views of many who have embraced BDS have lent themselves to this characterization, which simply does not play well in the US (where it really matters). I think a simple campaign for citizenship and equality would resonate much better in America, and put an end to the focus on ‘occupation/settlements’ and ‘terrorism’ which ultimately perpetuate the idea that a two-state solution may still be feasible and power the peace process industry.
 
You trust Hamas to govern?

As for your other points, please turn your questions towards the Palestinians.

No I don't, but judging by the results, I don't trust the israelis either. I tend to dislike sides that kill innocent civilians, you seem to be happy with at least one.
 
I have no idea what he got up to in the IDF to be honest and found the entire situation/ conversation pretty vile so didn't enquire further.

He's certainly not lynching anyone here though and I assume is still working as a high powered professional in London so not much to do for hateful thoughts.

Let's be fair, hateful thought permeates both sides of this conflict (well it permeates through a lot of humans in general all around the world).

Yes. :( And it's scary how easy it is for people to be radicalised and turned to monsters.
 
I disagree with almost everything they've written on here (that I've seen), suspect we'd fundamentally disagree about most aspects of this conflict and some of the stuff they've posted about most moral army in the world etc is just....well exactly what I've heard and seen before from IDF/previous IDF members.

But I think that's a little unfair. I don't think they've said at any point about people being moved out of their home that they have a right to not live there or anything like that, unless I've missed it.

Well these buildings that are being blown up are people's homes, offices etc. The justification is that 'intelligence' states it's used as a weapon store or something else too. Maybe some kid was pictured with a toy gun at the window, take the building down. They got weapons.

Unless you're referring to the settlement aspect: earlier in the thread, people were talking about how Arabs and Palestinians in Israel live a totally different life to Israelis in Israel, and at least response was along the lines of "Well at least they're able to live here".

Living in the UK, where not having internet for 30mins can feck up your mood, you lose perspective of what some people are going through every day.
 
So what’s this American envoy going to do are they there to back up the Israeli’s or get in between them to try and cause some sort of peace?

Will they stop this ground offensive or not?
 
He's completely brainwashed.

- if someone blows up a tower block "Well there was intelligence of Hamas weapons inside"
- If a kid dies "Well that death is on Hamas"
- If people are moved out of their home "It's their right to NOT live there"

The worst bit is, I think he's being completely genuine in his comments. That's just how he was raised and he can't see how alien his perspective is to the rest of us. Kind of like the US gun debate... :D


Presented with no further comment.
 
So what’s this American envoy going to do are they there to back up the Israeli’s or get in between them to try and cause some sort of peace?

Will they stop this ground offensive or not?
They’ve probably only just arrived, doubt they would be able to stop a ground offensive if it is this far along in the planning / execution stage.

As far as intention, I’d say the latter would be the focus.
 
Yes. :( And it's scary how easy it is for people to be radicalised and turned to monsters.

I have a slightly different take more than being scary, it's predictable. Over the course of history humans have mainly been a bunch of sadistic savages who from time to time are convinced to behave, I would be willing to say that out of all animals humans are the meanest and the only ones that could be described as monsters.