Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Achilles McCool]

I’d end the illegal settlements, withdraw military occupation, begin negotiations for a recognized Palestinian State, and return land taken from the Palestinians through conquest.

Then I’d likely be assassinated.

Do you acknowledge that the 3 bolded words in your statement can be disputed? Or are you the type of Dictator, (sorry, Prime Minister) that doesn’t accept differing points of view?

By the way, your American apologist views are very worrisome for a high school teacher educating our future generations! I assume you wouldn’t have dropped the bombs in WW2 either? That military act didn’t seem to create “a new generation of terrorists”

 

[Carolina Red]

Do you acknowledge that the 3 bolded words in your statement can be disputed? Or are you the type of Dictator, (sorry, Prime Minister) that doesn’t accept differing points of view?

By the way, your American apologist views are very worrisome for a high school teacher educating our future generations! I assume you wouldn’t have dropped the bombs in WW2 either? That military act didn’t seem to create “a new generation of terrorists”

Sure they can be disputed. The same way some people dispute that slavery caused the Civil War.

 

[Achilles McCool]

Sure they can be disputed. The same way some people dispute that slavery caused the Civil War.

That’s your response?

Damn, I hope you don't teach Debate as an elective in your South Carolina corner of the world!

Take your time, teacher, and give an educated response as to why your position is infallible and in any way comparable to Civil War arguments about slavery and reasons for war.

 

[Carolina Red]

That’s your response?

Damn, I hope you don't teach Debate as an elective in your South Carolina corner of the world!

Take your time, teacher, and give an educated response as to why your position is infallible and in any way comparable to Civil War arguments about slavery and reasons for war.

They’ve not made a microscope powerful enough to find the fecks I give about your opinion of my teaching.

Which brings me to my next point... are you here to talk about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or are you here to do your normal thing and try to talk shit to me, get mad, then get in trouble?

 

[maniak]

How about recognize Israel's right to exist for a start? How about stop shooting rockets targeting Israeli civilians? Israel did their part in 2005 when they removed all their settlements from the strip expecting to start peaceful negotiations, and what happened since? Hamas took control by force and kicked the more moderate Fatah out to the West Bank. Why should Israel have any dialog with a terror organization?

All those things can only be done at government level or by hamas. How should the average palestinian being expelled from his home behave? How should a random palestinian having his ass kicked while praying react? How should a parent who saw his kid die because of a bomb that maybe was targeting an hamas target the building next to where they live? How are these people suppose to react to all of this?

 

[Achilles McCool]

@Carolina Red I’ll help you out:

“I’d end the illegal settlements”- who says they’re illegal?

“withdraw military occupation”- I think you’d even have a strong military presence as Prime Minister if your country was being attacked non-stop since 1948, but tell me if I’m wrong

“begin negotiations for a recognized Palestinian State”-Israel has held negotiations and offered 98% of what Arafat, then the PA has asked for, only to be rejected

“return land taken from the Palestinians through conquest.”-certain lands that were acquired through war with their neighbors are strategic and need to be defended, otherwise Israel would be “wiped out” according to some Middle East leader’s wishes.

 

[Achilles McCool]

They’ve not made a microscope powerful enough to find the fecks I give about your opinion of my teaching.

Your insecurities are showing

are you here to do your normal thing and try to talk shit to me, get mad, then get in trouble?

I see! You are a dictator, and any differing view on the Caf is grounds for “trouble” from the moderator! We all know that you’ve wielded that sword against me in the past and threatened a ban, instead of constructively debating. Carry on, my Totalitarian leader!

 

[Carolina Red]

@Carolina Red I’ll help you out:

“I’d end the illegal settlements”- who says they’re illegal?

The UN Security Council, the Charter of the United Nations, the International Court of Justice, the International Criminal Court, the Geneva Convention...

“withdraw military occupation”- I think you’d even have a strong military presence as Prime Minister if your country was being attacked non-stop since 1948, but tell me if I’m wrong

Okay, well, you’re wrong. I literally said I’d withdraw the military occupation the first time.

“begin negotiations for a recognized Palestinian State”-Israel has held negotiations and offered 98% of what Arafat, then the PA has asked for, only to be rejected

Yeah, that’s 2% that could still have been offered.

“return land taken from the Palestinians through conquest.”-certain lands that were acquired through war with their neighbors are strategic and need to be defended, otherwise Israel would be “wiped out” according to some Middle East leader’s wishes.

So land taken through conquest. Yeah, I’d propose giving those back. If Israel exists, it should be what the UN mandated it to be when it was established, not what it has expanded itself to be.

 

[Wibble]

I wonder if there was any German soldiers who were also perfectly content they were doing nothing wrong during the ethnic cleansing of the Jews in the 20th century.

Godwin's Law fail.

 

[Achilles McCool]

The UN Security Council, the Charter of the United Nations, the International Court of Justice, the International Criminal Court, the Geneva Convention...

The key phrase being “occupied”. In 1967, Israel, through a war they didn’t start, won this land. I understand this can be disputed, but my stance is that Israel isn’t occupying this land; they are governing this land (just like the US after WW2 with many lands across the globe.) Occupy is a word used by the defeated

Okay, well, you’re wrong. I literally said I’d withdraw the military occupation the first time..

And give up your power? Ok. Maybe you aren’t a dictator! You’re just a coward.

Yeah, that’s 2% that could still have been offered..

oh, so total capitulation! Again, see above

So land taken through conquest. Yeah, I’d propose giving those back. If Israel exists, it should be what the UN mandated it to be when it was established, not what it has expanded itself to be.

Israel exists! Get over it

 

[Giggs86]

All those things can only be done at government level or by hamas. How should the average palestinian being expelled from his home behave? How should a random palestinian having his ass kicked while praying react? How should a parent who saw his kid die because of a bomb that maybe was targeting an hamas target the building next to where they live? How are these people suppose to react to all of this?

Absolutely. And yes, the average Palestinian suffers. But the anti-Israel, anti-zionist movements should really channel their efforts on fighting and freeing the Palestinian civilians from Hamas, a radical terrorist organization who holds millions of civilians captive and brainwashes them to hate Israel more than to love their own children. Israel, on the other hand, will not lay down and submit to those that believe that their struggle will not be over as long as there are living Jews in Israel. Israel, like every other sovereign nation, has every right to defend itself from any aggressors that call for its destruction. The more damage they can inflict on Hamas, the better. And unlike Hamas, Israel notifies residents to evacuate before bombing and they do their best to strike only militants and terrorists. From the other side, missiles are purposefully aimed at civilian targets.

 

[Achilles McCool]

All those things can only be done at government level or by hamas. How should the average palestinian being expelled from his home behave? How should a random palestinian having his ass kicked while praying react? How should a parent who saw his kid die because of a bomb that maybe was targeting an hamas target the building next to where they live? How are these people suppose to react to all of this?

You trust Hamas to govern?

As for your other points, please turn your questions towards the Palestinians.

 

[Carolina Red]

The key phrase being “occupied”. In 1967, Israel, through a war they didn’t start, won this land. I understand this can be disputed, but my stance is that Israel isn’t occupying this land; they are governing this land (just like the US after WW2 with many lands across the globe.) Occupy is a word used by the defeated

Why are you talking about the word occupied under my answer to “who says they’re illegal”?

As for the rest...

And give up your power? Ok. Maybe you aren’t a dictator! You’re just a coward.

oh, so total capitulation! Again, see above

Israel exists! Get over it

Okay...?

You asked what I’d propose. I told you. I’m sorry if it upsets you.

 

[Wibble]

I believe the things that I am writing because I have lived them. You didnt, so youre opinion is irrelevant. I know what I did to prevent the loss of innocent lives, I know what my friends did, I know what my commanders did.

I also know that the poor palestinians are being ruled by a terrorist organization that has no value of human lives and that is why they hide their rockets in schools, hospitals and populated areas.

Yet in Northern Ireland the vast majority of British troops could say the same because that was their experience, but it doesn't mean a small minority (or at least a minority) committed terrible acts. The other factor is that even the soldiers who "did nothing wrong" were still part of what a large portion of the population considered an occupying force. Yet that view didn't make them part of the IRA.

My ultimate point is that conflicts don't get resolved by either side claiming the moral high ground but it needs to start with genuine talks and negotiation with each other and that is often impossible until both sides stop killing each other in tit for tat attacks.

 

[Giggs86]

So land taken through conquest. Yeah, I’d propose giving those back. If Israel exists, it should be what the UN mandated it to be when it was established, not what it has expanded itself to be.

Sorry but that argument went out of the window when Israel was attacked time after time by 2-4 different aggressors at a time, decade after decade. They rejected the UN proposal to which Israel agreed, they attacked Israel with the intention of total destruction and annihilation of Israel, and they lost. They went to war knowing the risks and they lost. Why should Israel give them those lands back? And a better question would be, give the lands to whom exactly? Jordan? Egypt? Syria?

 

[Raven]

I would do exactly as Benjamin Netanyahu. Now you, man

And that's enough internet for me.

 

[shamans]

Those thriving communities just 'got up and left'? Those thriving communities were lynched, murdered, robbed and chased out of those countries after the Israelis declared independence and beat the aggressors in 1948.

This is not relevant to today and there was worldwide movement as such. For centuries they lived in harmony.

 

[Giggs86]

I wonder if there was any German soldiers who were also perfectly content they were doing nothing wrong during the ethnic cleansing of the Jews in the 20th century.

I probably missed those classes in school in which they taught how Jewish terrorists fired missiles on German civilians, performed suicide attacks in German buses and called for a total destruction and annihilation of Germany.

 

[shamans]

Do you acknowledge that the 3 bolded words in your statement can be disputed? Or are you the type of Dictator, (sorry, Prime Minister) that doesn’t accept differing points of view?

By the way, your American apologist views are very worrisome for a high school teacher educating our future generations! I assume you wouldn’t have dropped the bombs in WW2 either? That military act didn’t seem to create “a new generation of terrorists”

WW2 was a war.

Israel is an occupying force controlling minorities with muscle and backing of big players.

An army with a long list of crimes against humanity that we are just going to all ignore.

100 children killed per year. Yeah they're all human shields.

 

[shamans]

I probably missed those classes in school in which they taught how Jewish terrorists fired missiles on German civilians, performed suicide attacks in German buses and called for a total destruction and annihilation of Germany.

you sure did buddy. There are full documented accounts of Jewish armed resistance against germans. Not surprised. You've been brainwashed enough to defend child murderer IDF troops

 

[Giggs86]

This is not relevant to today and there was worldwide movement as such. For centuries they lived in harmony.

They lived in harmony for centuries and they still live in harmony in many parts of the world. I don't know how any of this relevant, I just reacted to your post which was incorrect. The majority of those Jewish communities in Arab/Middle Eastern/African countries were chased out after what happened in 1948, that's a fact.

 

[Carolina Red]

Sorry but that argument went out of the window when Israel was attacked time after time by 2-4 different aggressors at a time, decade after decade. They rejected the UN proposal to which Israel agreed, they attacked Israel with the intention of total destruction and annihilation of Israel, and they lost. They went to war knowing the risks and they lost. Why should Israel give them those lands back? And a better question would be, give the lands to whom exactly? Jordan? Egypt? Syria?

1) Hold on now... Firstly, Gaza, Golan, Sinai, and the West Bank became occupied when Israel started the Six Day War in 1967. Secondly, the last time an Arab Coalition launched a full scale war on Israel was 48 years ago, a war launched to regain territory taken by Israel in 1967.

2) Why? Well, for starters... peace. Secondly, the areas under military occupation like Gaza and the West Bank were never mandated to Israel by the UN. They should be given to the Palestinians and all Israeli military and settlements occupants removed.

3) They already returned Sinai back to Egypt in 1982, after conquering it in the Six Day War. Golan could go back to Syria in the same manner.

 

[shamans]

They lived in harmony for centuries and they still live in harmony in many parts of the world. I don't know how any of this relevant, I just reacted to your post which was incorrect. The majority of those Jewish communities in Arab/Middle Eastern/African countries were chased out after what happened in 1948, that's a fact.

I don't think I'll take my history lessons from someone who doesn't know the basis history of Jewish armed resistance.

 

[Giggs86]

you sure did buddy. There are full documented accounts of Jewish armed resistance against germans. Not surprised. You've been brainwashed enough to defend child murderer IDF troops

Please don't tell me you're comparing ghetto uprisings to the current conflict

Talking about brainwashed, that takes the cake. If you step out of you anti-Israeli bubble you'd see that Hamas is killing those kids, not IDF.

 

[Giggs86]

I don't think I'll take my history lessons from someone who doesn't know the basis history of Jewish armed resistance.

I can clearly see where you're taking your history lessons from, no more input is needed.

 

[shamans]

Please don't tell me you're comparing ghetto uprisings to the current conflict

Talking about brainwashed, that takes the cake. If you step out of you anti-Israeli bubble you'd see that Hamas is killing those kids, not IDF.

Shift goalposts now. You don't know your own history and I am not surprised.

 

[shamans]

I can clearly see where you're taking your history lessons from, no more input is needed.

Not from the Zionist school of how to twist crimes against humanity and child murders into logical arguments 101.

 

[Desert Eagle]

WW2 was a war.

Israel is an occupying force controlling minorities with muscle and backing of big players.

An army with a long list of crimes against humanity that we are just going to all ignore.

100 children killed per year. Yeah they're all human shields.

source?

 

[Carolina Red]

Yet in Northern Ireland the vast majority of British troops could say the same because that was their experience, but it doesn't mean a small minority (or at least a minority) committed terrible acts. The other factor is that even the soldiers who "did nothing wrong" were still part of what a large portion of the population considered an occupying force. Yet that view didn't make them part of the IRA.

My ultimate point is that conflicts don't get resolved by either side claiming the moral high ground but it needs to start with genuine talks and negotiation with each other and that is often impossible until both sides stop killing each other in tit for tat attacks.

Well said.

 

[Giggs86]

1) Hold on now... Firstly, Gaza, Golan, Sinai, and the West Bank became occupied when Israel started the Six Day War in 1967. Secondly, the last time an Arab Coalition launched a full scale war on Israel was 48 years ago, a war launched to regain territory taken by Israel in 1967.

2) Why? Well, for starters... peace. Secondly, the areas under military occupation like Gaza and the West Bank were never mandated to Israel by the UN. They should be given to the Palestinians and all Israeli military and settlements occupants removed.

3) They already returned Sinai back to Egypt in 1982, after conquering it in the Six Day War. Golan could go back to Syria in the same manner.

1. Nope. Gaza, Golan, Sinai and the West Bank got occupied when Israel won the Six Day War in 1967.

2. Peace? Sure, but peace is a two-way dialog. You can't have peace when the other side fundamentally calls for your total destruction. Gaza and the West Bank were never mandated to Israel by the UN, right. Israel removed its settlement in 2005 from Gaza. And what did it get in return? A terror state run by Hamas.

3. They returned Sinai to Egypt in return for peace which lasts to this day. See the difference? Egypt doesn't call for a total destruction of Israel. Hamas do. Regarding to Golan, it can't go back to Syria, because as I mentioned in the previous point, Israel will have another terror state on the northern border if that happens.

 

[Raees]

Not sure why @Carolina Red wasting his time on Team Mossad here. They’re blatantly zionists who will not argue rationally here. Fair play to you though.

 

[Giggs86]

Not from the Zionist school of how to twist crimes against humanity and child murders into logical arguments 101.

That would be the school of Hamas buddy.

 

[shamans]

source?

https://www.mecaforpeace.org/one-pa...ery-3-days-by-israel-for-13-years-statistics/

 

[shamans]

That would be the school of Hamas buddy.

I mention IDF and you reply with Hamas. At least you agree to equate IDF to a recognized terrorist organization.

(Completely ignoring that I've said nothing pro Hamas. Old Zionist tactic to project anti Israel crime as pro terrorism )

 

[Giggs86]

Not sure why @Carolina Red wasting his time on Team Mossad here. They’re blatantly zionists who will not argue rationally here. Fair play to you though.

As opposed to anti-Zionists who do argue rationally? Everyone sticks with his side in that conflict, nobody tries to change anyone's mind on a football forum.

 

[Carolina Red]

1. Nope. Gaza, Golan, Sinai and the West Bank got occupied when Israel won the Six Day War in 1967.

I mean... duh. I didn’t say they lost the war. But they also started the war. They were the aggressor.

2. Peace? Sure, but peace is a two-way dialog. You can't have peace when the other side fundamentally calls for your total destruction. Gaza and the West Bank were never mandated to Israel by the UN, right. Israel removed its settlement in 2005 from Gaza. And what did it get in return? A terror state run by Hamas.

And you don’t think returning to the 1948 borders might just help the process? Cause I do.

3. They returned Sinai to Egypt in return for peace which lasts to this day. See the difference? Egypt doesn't call for a total destruction of Israel. Hamas do. Regarding to Golan, it can't go back to Syria, because as I mentioned in the previous point, Israel will have another terror state on the northern border if that happens.

See my response to point #2.

 

[Giggs86]

I mention IDF and you reply with Hamas. At least you agree to equate IDF to a recognized terrorist organization.

(Completely ignoring that I've said nothing pro Hamas. Old Zionist tactic to project anti Israel crime as pro terrorism )

In case you didn't watch the news it is IDF on one side and Hamas on the other side. Who do you think shoots those missiles from Gaza? The Vatican?

 

[shamans]

In 2012, Breaking the Silence, an organization founded by former Israeli soldiers whose purpose is to expose alleged abuses committed by the Israeli Defense Forces released a booklet of witness reports written by more than 30 former Israeli soldiers. These reports document of Palestinian children being beaten, intimidated, humiliated, verbally abused and injured by Israeli soldiers. Eran Efrati, a former IDF commander on the West Bank has said that ill-treatment of arrested children is routine. He himself admits to having arrested children aged 11 and over as though they were adults, with handcuffs and blindfolds:
[/Qoute]

 

[Carolina Red]

As opposed to anti-Zionists who do argue rationally? Everyone sticks with his side in that conflict, nobody tries to change anyone's mind on a football forum.

You realize that you can respect Israeli sovereignty and still also think Israel should follow international law, yes?

 

[shamans]

As opposed to anti-Zionists who do argue rationally? Everyone sticks with his side in that conflict, nobody tries to change anyone's mind on a football forum.

Most sane folk who don't have an obvious connection to Israel (blinded by Zionism/nationalism) do not take the side of illegal occupier and children murderers.