Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Amir]

Has this been good for Netanyahu personally? Distractions from his personal trials, scandals, whatever?

This has been brilliant for the bastard. Until a few days ago it looked like the parties that oppose him are about to form a new government without him, with the support of one of the Arab parties.

Now, with everything that's going on, that has been put on hold. And it's doubtful whether the right-wing parties who were about to be a part of this govenment would have the guts to do so based on the votes of a Arab party.

As the days pass and this continues to go on - both with Gaza and internally - Netanyahu's chances of forcing another round of elections and maintaining his role as interim PM improve.

 

[ivaldo]

The PLO affirmed Israels right to exist back in 1993, before Hamas truly rose to power. It got them nowhere. The land theft and displacement just continued regardless.

@vidic blood & sand hasn't responded to this or Realists previous post that categorically disproves his poorly constructed suggestion. He never does.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Right wing islamophibic nutjobs supporting these acts is hardly the most surprising thing right now. People in here are morally bankrupt.

Populist nutjobs get kicks off of each other

 

[Moby]

Populist nutjobs get kicks off of each other

Indeed.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Some absolutely shocking scenes. Any police officer who facilitates or allows a lynching or violence against any human is a complete disgrace, and should not only be fired but also prosecuted to the full extent. Anybody trying to lynch a fellow human should be thrown into jail. This should not be controversial, and if the police are allowing that, it's a huge disgrace and embarrassment. They are there to protect the vulnerable, not persecute them. Scum.

Every decent Israeli should stand up and protect their neighbours, regardless of colour and creed. This cannot be allowed to happen.

@IhabX7 Stay safe.

This is notwithsanding and regardless of any rockets/Hamas/IDF action. This is basic civilisation.

And perhaps now you understand why the images of security forces storming a house of worship and Israeli's celebrating while Al-Aqsa burned cause me some discomfort. They are continuing along a path of hate that we have seen countless times before.

 

[Carolina Red]

Thank you. Do they believe that then the Jews would become Christians in the end? Or what would happen to the Jews and Israel according to them?

You’re welcome.
1) I edited this in above to add why the belief is so important to US policy towards Israel...
“Because of this, American conservative evangelicals see any strike against the state of Israel as a strike against biblical prophecy and God’s will. This leads to conservative politicians pandering to this belief to secure votes from the American evangelical voters through supporting Israel’s military and domestic/foreign policy.”

2) To answer your question...
There’s a prophesy in the Book of Revelation that’s interpreted by those of the Evangelical belief system to mean that 144,000 Jews will adopt Christianity and become missionaries during the time of Tribulation, after which, they will go to Heaven. Israel itself will be the site of the 2nd Jerusalem where Jesus will once again dwell and rule from for 1000 years leading up to the final judgment and God’s eternal kingdom. For this to happen, a 3rd Temple must be built on the site of the original and 2nd temples.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Yeah it's impossible, not to mention an incredibly nonsensical stance to have, because Palestine's right to peace with Israel shouldn't be decided on anything other than those two nation's diplomatic agreements. Nobody can be this obtuse.

If Israel's existence is an offence to Allah and all Muslims, how can there be a peace negotiation?
Israel's existence is offensive and blasphemous.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

I'm of Pakistani descent, so I'm well aware of the history and relationship between Hindus and Muslims. I was just commenting on a trend I'd noticed in the last few years - I actually remember in the last GE here in the UK there was right wing Hindu propaganda aimed at getting British Indians voting for the Tories and smearing Labour.

I like it.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

If Israel's existence is an offence to Allah and all Muslims, how can there be a peace negotiation?
Israel's existence is offensive and blasphemous.

Oh wow you're just straight up ignoring responses now so you can continue your nonsensical loop aren't you? Ok, thanks for your time but I'm done. There's literally no discussion going on here and it's less exhausting talking to a two year, because at the very least the two year old actually has a point.

 

[RedTiger]

No


Yes


It wouldn't happen, would it?
Muslim countries hate the existence of Israel. Ask them yourself.

You seem to like distilling everything down to religion. How do the Christian Arabs see the existance of Israel? And how do Israel percieve the Arab Christians?

 

[predator]

It always amazes me how we humans can have wars between ourselves. To think we could be living the only planet with life in the whole universe or just be on one of millions of them out there.

It's mad when you think about it. Maybe aliens have swerved us because they think we are wrongens.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

You seem to like distilling everything down to religion. How do the Christian Arabs see the existance of Israel?

From a Christian perspective the Jewish people are loved by God on behalf of the patriarchs, but acceptance with God is based on faith alone in Christ rather than works.

And how do Israel percieve the Arab Christians?

Nobodies.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

It always amazes me how we humans can have wars between ourselves.

Together we could achieve so much for every single person but as a species we are greedy, barbarous and cruel.

 

[Foxbatt]

You’re welcome.
1) I edited this in above to add why the belief is so important to US policy towards Israel...
“Because of this, American conservative evangelicals see any strike against the state of Israel as a strike against biblical prophecy and God’s will. This leads to conservative politicians pandering to this belief to secure votes from the American evangelical voters through supporting Israel’s military and domestic/foreign policy.”

2) To answer your question...
There’s a prophesy in the Book of Revelation that’s interpreted by those of the Evangelical belief system to mean that 144,000 Jews will adopt Christianity and become missionaries during the time of Tribulation, after which, they will go to Heaven.

Thank you very much. I presume the Jews may not be too enamoured of that they will become Christians at the end.
It's the religious extremists everywhere who keep fanning the flames of hate.

 

[owlo]

And perhaps now you understand why the images of security forces storming a house of worship and Israeli's celebrating while Al-Aqsa burned cause me some discomfort. They are continuing along a path of hate that we have seen countless times before.

I do. But note I have condemned that from the first moment. (though it was a tree burning) Israel is supposed to be a country of refugees and tolerance, not this. I hope the culprits face retribution (not death, just sacking and prison). I still don't know who authorised that assault, only that it wasn't cleared by the normal chain of military intelligence in Jerusalem. Probably political right wingers. Will probably come out in time.

I know it's terrible and uncomfortable, that people forced from their homes of generations and families is unjust and barbaric. That most of these poor people just want a home and peace in their lives. I will never deny or marginalise the suffering of those people. Most were born into this; they have no say in Hamas or historical persecution of Jews; it's literally a personal jihad for them.

And I have no good answers. I want Israel to be a strong state that defends herself robustly, that is modern and welcomes refugees and Jews who've been persecuted around the world. But I don't want them persecuting Palestinians. I have no love for settlers stealing more land. And whilst I kinda feel that the land Israel took in 1967 was 'justified' - I don't feel they need it all now. If the political will was there, they could create a 2 state solution. They could even keep the Old City divided into the four quarters. But the will is not there, on any side.

For me personally; the idea of people being lynched on the streets by other citizens, of the police being complicit in this is far more scary to me than the Al-Aqsa situation. That was one order, one outburst. It was wrong, but not the common citizen. (I do get that the symbolism for Muslims during Ramadan makes it particularly bad, but as I'm not religious in any way, I probably can't empathise too much with that.) This is an undercurrent of complicity in persecution. And feck that. It's fecking scary as if a civilian or army boy/girl shot the aggressors to defend somebody, they themselves would be punished and lynched. It's terrifying. It's a cycle of degeneracy that can spell nothing good. THAT is comparative to 1930's Nazi fecking Germany. When one could attack Jews and the police would just laugh. They need to send the army in and stop this immediately. Throw every fecker in jail.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I do. But note I have condemned that from the first moment. (though it was a tree burning) Israel is supposed to be a country of refugees and tolerance, not this. I hope the culprits face retribution (not death, just sacking and prison). I still don't know who authorised that assault, only that it wasn't cleared by the normal chain of military intelligence in Jerusalem. Probably political right wingers. Will probably come out in time.

I know it's terrible and uncomfortable, that people forced from their homes of generations and families is unjust and barbaric. That most of these poor people just want a home and peace in their lives. I will never deny or marginalise the suffering of those people. Most were born into this; they have no say in Hamas or historical persecution of Jews; it's literally a personal jihad for them.

And I have no good answers. I want Israel to be a strong state that defends herself robustly, that is modern and welcomes refugees and Jews who've been persecuted around the world. But I don't want them persecuting Palestinians. I have no love for settlers stealing more land. And whilst I kinda feel that the land Israel took in 1967 was 'justified' - I don't feel they need it all now. If the political will was there, they could create a 2 state solution. They could even keep the Old City divided into the four quarters. But the will is not there, on any side.

For me personally; the idea of people being lynched on the streets by other citizens, of the police being complicit in this is far more scary to me than the Al-Aqsa situation. That was one order, one outburst. It was wrong, but not the common citizen. (I do get that the symbolism for Muslims during Ramadan makes it particularly bad, but as I'm not religious in any way, I probably can't empathise too much with that.) This is an undercurrent of complicity in persecution. And feck that. It's fecking scary as if a civilian or army boy/girl shot the aggressors to defend somebody, they themselves would be punished and lynched. It's terrifying. It's a cycle of degeneracy that can spell nothing good. THAT is comparative to 1930's Nazi fecking Germany. When one could attack Jews and the police would just laugh. They need to send the army in and stop this immediately. Throw every fecker in jail.

I have no answer either, other than to stress the need to treat each other as what we are: human beings, who are fundamentally the same no matter where we are from and who fundamentally want the same things; peace, love and prosperity. My comparison wasn't facetious or anti-semitic in nature. I am not super educated but my bachelor's degree is in history and what I saw in that tweet and others that I sought out from the Palestinian side was chilling.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Also, for those that don't know, I am legally considered indigenous (Native American) in Canada so seeing people have their homes and land stolen from them and other nefarious solutions to "insert ethnicity here" questions/problems in 2021 generates a lot of feels.

 

[calodo2003]

About to target the tallest building in Gaza...

 

[Carolina Red]

Thank you very much. I presume the Jews may not be too enamoured of that they will become Christians at the end.
It's the religious extremists everywhere who keep fanning the flames of hate.

Interestingly enough, the evangelicals and Jews both have a common goal - to have a 3rd Temple built on the Temple Mount. The evangelicals love to visit that golden menorah put in the street near the Western Wall by the Temple Institute that’s supposed to go in it.

 

[maniak]

vidic has to be trolling us, there's no other possibility

 

[Foxbatt]

Interestingly enough, the evangelicals and Jews both have a common goal - to have a 3rd Temple built on the Temple Mount. The evangelicals love to visit that golden menorah put in the street near the Western Wall by the Temple Institute that’s supposed to go in it.

It is a right old mess there isn't it? If only the 3rd temple can be built without destroying any mosques or churches then may work out peacefully for most people.

 

[MacabbiUnited]

And so it seems you are ok with your army killing civilians. Kids were murdered by your army.
Israel started this aggression with the evictions and then the raiding of the Al Aqsa mosque and attacking people praying.
Now they escalating it because the only people standing up for the Palestinians are firing back.
Hamas and the IDF are BOTH terrorist groups. One (IDF) is just funded by Western governments who have no conscious.

Yoy speak of firing back as if they are fighting againts the army, which is legitimate. I wont go into discussions about whose right in the conflict as a whole because its irrelevant to the subject. The subject is missiles are firing towards populated areas in order to kill people, Israel attacks expilcit targets that are known to the intelligence community. If Hamas chooses to hide weapons in civilian areas, than hes to blame for any civilian death. We send warnings ahead of every strike in order to prevent those deaths. We attack targets, we dont fire into the sky hoping to hit everything that will be in the way. So yeah, theres a major difference.

 

[MacabbiUnited]

Serving in any battlefront must be hell, as is the fear of bombs and rockets randomly falling on you, on a human level the fear is very much understandable and measures put in place to avert that can't really be questioned.

The rocket attacks are obviously a response to the escalation of tit for tat events over the last week which I am lead to believe started with the police raid on the temple mount/al aqsa compound.
Would you or anyone else on the caf know why the police raided the compound during taraweeh with such heavy handed tactics? It seems like a massively stupid thing to do and I still can't understand why it happened.

On the Shiekh Jarraah subject I will probably agree with most of what people has to say. I am againts evacuating anyone from his home.

That doesnt justify in my eyes shooting of handreds of rockets into populated areas. And when that happens, we need to make sure those rockets cant be used againts us, and that is what we are doing. Every innocent life lost in the process is a tragedy, one we are trying to prevent with liflets and "knock on the roof" policy.

 

[MacabbiUnited]

Why is it that likes of amnesty internationals and other organisations have consistently said that the whole human shield thing is over played by he IDF and Israel and in fact it's the IDF and Israel that use children as human shields.

Also isn't Hamas the very organisation that once was supported by Israel? And was generally peaceful. Only resorting to violence after that Jewish bloke killed some Palestinians in a terrorist attack. Israel instead of punishing the guy built him up as a hero.

I dont know of any time in history Israel has ever supported Hamas. We supported the PLO after the oslo accords, and as far as I know thats the end of it. Hamas gainee control of the Gaza strip in 2004 when we evacuated every living jew in the area and has used it to try and kill Israelis every since. Digging tunnels into israeli cities, firing rockets without regard to where it will fall, hoping to kill civilians.

On a personal note, a soldier from my battalion was killed today. I know his commanders, that breaks my heart. But as heart breaking as that is, it is legitimate to fight againts our army. That doesnt make it legitimate to shoot at our civilans, and trying to create an equation where it is ok, just shows the moral of those who does it.

 

[maniak]

Israel attacks expilcit targets that are known to the intelligence community. If Hamas chooses to hide weapons in civilian areas, than hes to blame for any civilian death.

Would you personally press the button to blow up an hamas target knowing you'd kill innocent children?

 

[Carolina Red]

It is a right old mess there isn't it? If only the 3rd temple can be built without destroying any mosques or churches then may work out peacefully for most people.

Sadly, that would be impossible. It has to be built on the Temple Mount (Mount Moriah) and that’s occupied by the Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock.

Which, again, helps explain why evangelicals are so down with helping Israel get Muslims out of the area.

 

[owlo]

Interestingly enough, the evangelicals and Jews both have a common goal - to have a 3rd Temple built on the Temple Mount. The evangelicals love to visit that golden menorah put in the street near the Western Wall by the Temple Institute that’s supposed to go in it.

Isn't that lost in an Italian river?

 

[Carolina Red]

it is legitimate to fight againts our army. That doesnt make it legitimate to shoot at our civilans

The 2nd part of your statement here is going to draw some confusion, considering your views here...

If Hamas chooses to hide weapons in civilian areas, than hes to blame for any civilian death

 

[Carolina Red]

Isn't that lost in an Italian river?

This one?

 

[MacabbiUnited]

Would you personally press the button to blow up an hamas target knowing you'd kill innocent children?

What I would and wouldnt do is irrelevant. The people that need to take the hard choices are taking them.
Would you push the button had you known that if you wont, the weapons in this house would be used to kill people who are close to you? Because thats the potential of every one of those rockets. A 6 year old israeli died this evening because a rockets hit hes house. If I had the power to prevent it, I would.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[MacabbiUnited]

The 2nd part of your statement here is going to draw some confusion, considering your views here...

No it doesnt. Does Hamas shoot us in order to hit army targets? Or does he shoot to kill? Youre comparing appels with oranges. Targeting the army and army targets is legitimate, targeting civilans just for the sake of killing them, isnt.

 

[Sweet Square]

targeting civilans just for the sake of killing them, isnt.

 

[MacabbiUnited]

Funny enough I live in Haifa. The police doesnt work with "mobs", and if you had seen what is happening in the streets you'd know why police are looking for people. Over 350 civilans, jews and arabs as one were arrested today because of violations of order.

 

[maniak]

What I would and wouldnt do is irrelevant. The people that need to take the hard choices are taking them.
Would you push the button had you known that if you wont, the weapons in this house would be used to kill people who are close to you? Because thats the potential of every one of those rockets. A 6 year old israeli died this evening because a rockets hit hes house. If I had the power to prevent it, I would.

Your first and last sentence confused me. Would you or wouldn't you?

If I knew that by pressing the button I would kill children and by not pressing the button, there was a chance a rocket could hit my hometown, I would refuse to press that button. Certain death and potential threat are different things.

 

[Carolina Red]

No it doesnt. Does Hamas shoot us in order to hit army targets? Or does he shoot to kill? Youre comparing appels with oranges. Targeting the army and army targets is legitimate, targeting civilans just for the sake of killing them, isnt.

I know you’re not gonna see it that way, but I’m just telling you...

When Israeli missiles hit the Gaza Strip or West Bank and kill Palestinian civilians, you’re gonna get called out for doing the same thing Hamas is doing.

Trust me, Americans practically invented that tactic.

 

[MacabbiUnited]

Why was the kid in the house? Israel roof knocks every building it targets.
As for the other kid, I dont know the situation so I cant make an educated response. What I can say is I served in the army, and our open fire orders as very strict. Every shot needs to be authorised by a unit commander, and a shoot to kill order is only authorised when credible threats are in place. I know that because I lived by those orders, and I can assure you I never shot anybody.

 

[owlo]

@Carolina Red Not the thread for laughing, but that's some grotesque tourist attraction right there The arch of titus is showing it quite clearly.

 

[Foxbatt]

Israel government spawned Hamas to fight against the secular PLO who was at that time their opponents. it is like the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. No one here is defending the Hamas but some are defending the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and the massacre of Palestinian civilians. A complete disgrace.

 

[Sweet Square]

Funny enough I live in Haifa. The police doesnt work with "mobs", and if you had seen what is happening in the streets you'd know why police are looking for people. Over 350 civilans, jews and arabs as one were arrested today because of violations of order.

Completely normal response to killing of a child.